Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

327 pointsposted 2 months ago
by 1659447091

243 Comments

tdeck

2 months ago

Why are all the comments here so weird? It's like people saw (but didn't read) an article entitled "Man Opens a Taqueria in his Hometown" and the only responses are

1) Why didn't he open it in my hometown? This location isn't convenient for me.

2) Wouldn't it be better for someone else to open a taqueria instead? My cousin is looking for work. Shouldn't we be putting resources into helping him open a restaurant instead?

It's like people hear "X in Asian country" and all they can think about is their own geopolitical narrative fed to them by the US state department. Obviously Japan is going to want to develop lucrative manufacturing... within Japan.

indoordin0saur

2 months ago

I'll try and add something positive: Hokkaido seems like a great place to relocate and start a life for young aspiring workers. Homes are larger and quality of life has some advantages over the more densely populated parts of Japan. It's also very unique in terms of climate and geography: very heavy snows and mountains means there's limitless adventure for skiers and snowboarders. Yet, despite the snowy winters the winter isn't as brutally cold as you might think and its not so long as what you see in a place like Canada. Spring comes quickly and the summers are long, warm and pleasant so there's plenty of time to take advantage of the beaches and beautiful forests. And about those forests, one other unique thing about Hokkaido is that it's the only place in the world that can rival (or exceed) New England in terms of its brilliance of fall colors.

Anyways, just seems like a great place for Japanese workers to relocate and start a family. I guess the only thing missing were the jobs so hopefully these chip fabs fix that.

echelon

2 months ago

> Hokkaido seems like a great place to relocate and start a life for young aspiring workers.

I taught English in Tokachi (Obihiro, Makubetsu-cho, Satsunai, Ikeda) a few decades ago and it was absolutely a dream.

It's pristine farmland and country filled with crystal clear rivers and surrounded on all sides by snowcapped mountains. Fields that stretch forever. Hot springs. The freshest food. Fishing. Low cost of living.

You could look up at night and not only see all the stars, but watch dozens of meteors by the minute during showers.

Just Google for photos of Tokachi. It's gorgeous.

Everything is so relaxed, it's almost the complete opposite of Tokyo. It's very easy to meet friends. People work hard, but they take time to enjoy life and nature.

There are matsuri (festivals) almost twice a month. There are carts with whistles that beckon you to buy hot yellow sweet potatoes. There are fireworks and bonfires and sports and hiking and climbing. You can make an hour long trip to the ocean and see black pebble beaches that look like an alien world.

There are more parks than you can imagine. A park on every block. And some of them are huge and feature giant art installations you can climb on. 500-ft working clocks, rolling hills of recycled rubber you can bounce on, tall dinosaurs you can climb. And don't let that lead you to believe there aren't an incredible amount of plants and flora. It's an ecological paradise and was without question the inspiration for Miyazaki's Princess Mononoke.

Everyone is so friendly. The store owners know you by name and call to you. The children all want to get their photo taken with a white guy. They're adorable and they want to talk English to you. The old ladies will smile and wave.

One time I was at a lake nestled in the mountains, and a guy in his late 40's or early 50's overheard that I lamented not having a camera (pre-smartphone era). He not only spent an hour taking pictures, portraits, etc. for me with his Nikon, but he printed them and sent them to me with a postcard.

The teachers at Kohryo High School (which was sadly shut down) even gave me lucky money.

Hokkaido is a magical place.

inglor_cz

2 months ago

Your description makes me wonder how Southern Sachalin would look like today if it didn't fall to the Soviets in 1945.

indoordin0saur

2 months ago

I really find it disappointing that Sakhalin didn't end up under the control of Japan as it's a natural extension of the archipelago and I feel like the Japanese could have done some cool things with it.

idiotsecant

2 months ago

This is some good copy. I feel like you're selling me a timeshare or something.

user

2 months ago

[deleted]

wrp

2 months ago

I was in Hokkaido many years ago for work and loved it. Compared to the rest of Japan, indoor/outdoor spaces are wider, food is better, and people are friendlier. I never could swing another work visit, so I dream about spending time there in retirement.

I could imagine, though, that companies might have trouble attracting quality talent to Hokkaido, because people see more opportunities in the big cities down south. I suppose it's like if you were trying to build a tech hub in Montana.

indoordin0saur

2 months ago

It's not landlocked and less isolated than Montana. Montana is beautiful in select parts but it's also a little bleak. Hokkaido is still a lush island and Sapporo is a proper city. I'd say it's more like getting companies to move from SF or LA to Seattle.

ghaff

2 months ago

The same could probably be said of many areas of the US (or other countries). Good outdoor recreation opportunities, some good local food options, but not a huge number of (local) employment opportunities or the nearby options that density brings.

As you say, if you can work remotely, it may be fine but it's a different situation from working in a hub of whatever your specialty is.

bigstrat2003

2 months ago

> As you say, if you can work remotely, it may be fine but it's a different situation from working in a hub of whatever your specialty is.

The question is: is that actually a problem with Japanese work culture? That would be a large problem in US work culture because there's no loyalty from your employer, so you have to be prepared to find a new job at any moment. But it certainly used to be the case that if you worked for BigCorp, you could reasonably expect to work there for the rest of your life if you wanted. And under those conditions, it doesn't matter if the area is a hub for your job specialty.

I know Japan at least used to have a work culture where companies would be loyal to their employees, based on patio11's excellent blog post on how Japanese business culture differs from that of the US. But that was many years ago now, so I don't know if the culture in Japan is still like that or if it has changed.

barrenko

2 months ago

If you're a talent manager in AI space and looking for an engineer (EU) to relocate to Hokkaido, kindly contact me.

fngjdflmdflg

2 months ago

Because commenters outside Japan may end up buying products containing chips made in Japan. If it was built in let's say France people would be thinking less about potential invasions. Just as "obviously Japan is going to want to develop lucrative manufacturing within Japan," obviously people outside of Japan are going to want manufacturing that is not liable to be shut down or taken over in some way. Not that I think Japan and China will actually go to war any time soon myself.

>geopolitical narrative fed to them by the US state department

Just this week Japan and China have been getting into a fight over the current PM's comments over Taiwan. China has canceled some flights to Japan and complained to the UN, announcing it will defend itself from Japan.[0][1] I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying major disputes between China and Japan don't exist and are invented by the US state department? Or that thinking about it in this context is the result of the commenters being fed by the US state department?

[0] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/3333992/china-blasts...

[1] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-takes-spat-with-ja...

SllX

2 months ago

The PRC and Japan is not a remotely comparable situation to the PRC and Taiwan.

The most the PRC could do is potentially sabotage production in Hokkaido, but if they can sabotage production in Hokkaido, they can sabotage it in Arizona.

fngjdflmdflg

2 months ago

I don't think China wants to go to war with Japan. I just mean to explain why people are focusing on geopolitical tensions. And the answer is that those tensions do exist, and is partly why some countries are trying to become more self-sufficient to begin with. So discussion of it is valid, that is my main point. Now once we get into those discussions, they might not be as high quality or informed as in let's say a pure technology article, but that is to be expected.

pyrale

2 months ago

Imagine HN was Japanese and everyone was talking about how the US was threatening to invade Greenland on a topic about a new plant in Montana.

fngjdflmdflg

2 months ago

More like a new plant in Iceland, after the PM of Iceland said any attack on Greenland would be a survival-threatening situation for Iceland.

To be clear I think the comments about "geopolitical stability" or whatever term we use are not as interesting as new chip plants itself. Or at least they are a bit tired by now. I also wish Japan the best and I think they are fully capable of building such a factory and I hope they do so. But to claim that the geopolitical considerations are invented is wrong. And in fact one of the reasons the Japanese government is investing in local fabs to begin with is due to national security, as mentioned in the article:

>Securing control over chip manufacturing is being seen as a national security priority, both in Japan and elsewhere, as recent trade frictions and geopolitical tensions between China and Taiwan raise concerns around the risks of relying on foreign suppliers.

So yes, viewing the entire story through a geopolitical lens is understandable.

alephnerd

2 months ago

Usually around now (6am PST), HN tends to be dominated by Western (and some Eastern) European commentators. I've noticed they tend to have a weird mix of orientalist sentiment along with a "Europe should be able to do this too" sentiment (though in a lot of cases, this is moreso sentiment than reality).

gsf_emergency_6

2 months ago

Let me contribute my Europeanist sentiment by pointing out that the harmonious design of the fab is pure tatemae.

The Japanese professional class care fuckall about PFAS and environmental issues have always been low on the list of priorities. Sorry. I love the Hokkaido produce.

https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemi...

tdeck

2 months ago

It's certainly something to be concerned about. Even the building where MOS Technology made the 6502 (in Norristown PA) is still a contaminated EPA superfund site. It's an industry with very nasty chemicals and a long history of leaking them.

jack_tripper

2 months ago

>I've noticed they tend to have a weird mix of orientalist sentiment along with a "Europe should be able to do this too".

Is it wrong for people in Europe to wish for more cutting-edge/high-margin opportunities in their back yard, especially given the currently atrocious state of the job market?

Like you read news how TSMC's cutting edge chips are made in Taiwan and US fabs, then you looks at European fabs and the most cutting edge are 16/12nm.

People are seeing the lag with their own eyes and wish for some change.

alephnerd

2 months ago

Actively disrespecting other countries who worked hard on developing such capabilities and assuming European nations should be on the "big boys table" is what is so jarring.

Nothing stopped European nations like Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, etc from continuing to invest in domestic capacity 20 years ago, but most of their IP is now developed in American, Indian, or other Asian subsidiaries or JVs.

Just becuase Europe was historically the richest and most powerful continent doesn't mean it will be forever.

jack_tripper

2 months ago

>Actively disrespecting other countries who worked hard on developing such capabilities and assuming European nations should be on the "big boys table" is what is so jarring.

Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, as there was no disrespecting anyone there with my comment, and I basically agree with your point.

That doesn't change that people here want those cutting edge manufacturing and job opportunities the US has. They don't want to be stuck competition with China in commodity widgets like cars or low margin 16nm-65nm microcontrollers.

There's a limited market for ASML machines, Siemens gas turbines, and Airbus planes which can't support economic growth of the entire block.

>Nothing stopped European nations like from continuing to invest in domestic capacity 20 years ago, but most of their IP is now developed in American, Indian, or other Asian subsidiaries or JVs.

They're developed outside of Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, etc since private businesses care most about prioritizing shareholder returns, not national sovereignty. And with Western EUs high labor costs, high taxes, high bureaucracy, strong unions, private companies slowly moved jobs elsewhere where it's cheaper to do business, no unions, less environmentalism, less labor protections, etc. Everyone with basic business know-how could have seen this coming but people still thought they could have their cake and eat it too in the globally cutthroat "free market" economy.

Case in point, Nokia just announced it is closing Infinera's Munich office and moving all operations to the US.

catigula

2 months ago

"Everyone except for me is an -ist. I'm an enlightened non-ist."

mapt

2 months ago

Of course. On just one avenue - The Japanese auto industry is huge, and practically everything in a car has some kind of chip in it. The chip industry isn't just CPUs and GPUs, cars use numerous fairly small, primitive chips you could make using 20-year-old process nodes. The "Comparative Advantage" of global trade specialization has its limits. During COVID, international ports shut down frequently and challenged JIT process inventory levels. Raising inventory levels the next time is one way to deal with that, but so is encouraging some minimum level of domestic production.

orochimaaru

2 months ago

The Japanese population trend is unsustainable with long term growth. Maybe they will find people to relocate to satisfy the labor needs? They're notoriously anti-immigration. So unless they have a growing labor pool that can sustain this it's going to be hard.

In general, I think the US is looking for alternatives outside of Taiwan to build and operate fabs. Yes, there is a push to get them in the US as well.

I'm unsure of why people in the EU seem disconcerted about this. No one is asking them not to create the programs to setup fabs. In fact the US may be thrilled that more allies are putting effort towards creating a supply chain not dependent on China (and Taiwan).

mitthrowaway2

2 months ago

How much human labor is needed to run a semiconductor fab? This isn't exactly a new shipyard being announced. It seems like the perfect investment for an aging society, and might pay dividends in helping to support the automation of other industries.

Japan also already supplies a lot of critical materials for semiconductor fabrication, and has a lot of experience in the sector. They also have a well-developed domestic mechatronics supply chain. It seems like a fairly straightforward thing.

idiotsecant

2 months ago

It takes a fair amount of people. You have techs that keep the floor level stuff running, process engineers, maintenance techs and engineers, facilities, IT & automation people, logistics, quality assurance, management, admins. I bet you're talking more than a thousand people for a big facility.

panny

2 months ago

>The Japanese population trend is unsustainable with long term growth.

There are plenty of people in Tokyo/Osaka who can come to Hokkaido. If the jobs pay well, they will. Japan owes it to an entire generation who were left out in the "employment ice age." Japanese are very smart, can be trained, and should get first shot at the jobs.

>Maybe they will find people to relocate to satisfy the labor needs? They're notoriously anti-immigration.

According to western media. I (a gaijin) marched in the "anti-immigrant" rally recently myself. I was welcomed to do so. Nobody here wants to see foreigners coming in that destroy vending machines and just start building shanty towns on other peoples' property. Good gaijin are welcomed, bad ones need to leave.

>So unless they have a growing labor pool that can sustain this it's going to be hard.

That's not going to be a problem simply based on the crazy property prices in Kita Hiroshima next door to Chitose. People are obviously coming.

tanaros

2 months ago

> Good gaijin are welcomed, bad ones need to leave.

This is always the rhetoric in anti-immigration movements. You may find that the definitions of “good” and “bad” vary wildly.

panny

2 months ago

>You may find that the definitions of “good” and “bad” vary wildly.

Not really, the definition was clearly explained in my post. Don't destroy vending machines,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flhqq_xsWBs

Don't build shanty towns on other people's property,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9RO8DpJ64g

This is pretty easy to understand for anyone. If you are an immigrant in Japan and you have a problem with these requests, please leave.

Sincerely,

A fellow gaijin.

alephnerd

2 months ago

> I'm unsure of why people in the EU seem disconcerted about this

This is a top-level issue within Europe as well.

When the Biden admin began the IRA, IIJA, and CHIPS ACT, France, Germany, and the entire EU began a massive lobbying campaign that verged into a trade war [0][1][2].

I went to school with a number of people who became senior EU and EU member state civil servants and leaders, and my college always hosted European dignitaries on a daily basis (along with a yearly gala/bash where all the major EU and EU member state dignitaries would attend with students and professors [3]), and what I saw was the best and brightest remained in the US, and those who climbed the ladder the fastest in EU and EU member state governments tended to have some familial background or network they heavily leveraged. Or they lucked out and joined the right student union during the right election cycle. There is a chronic lack of vision, and more critically - a chronic disinterest to take hard decisions, because the incentive structures are completely misaligned, with MPs essentially overriding careerist technocrats all for the sake of electoral needs, and unlike Asia, businesses are kept at arms length aside from those that are quasi-state owned like Volkswagen, EDF, or Leonardo SPA.

It's almost as if the worst aspects of private sector capitalism morphed with the worst aspects of state capitalism into a legalistic quagmire.

[0] - https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/expressions/real-reason...

[1] - https://www.atlantik-bruecke.org/en/schadet-der-us-inflation...

[2] - https://www.bruegel.org/policy-brief/how-europe-should-answe...

[3] - https://euroconf.eu/

orochimaaru

2 months ago

Engineering pay in the EU is bad. If that can be rectified then top talent would not move to the US. Also, US companies actively harness senior individual contributors. I don't think traditional EU companies have that.

I think all the talk around regulations, taxes, etc. are a side show. Yes, there could be slightly looser labor laws. But when it comes down to it - money matters and Europe just doesn't pay. The same for Canada. Their universities plodded through AI all through the "AI Winter" and now all their best AI talent works for US companies. There is no single Canadian AI company that's at the level of what their US counterparts are doing.

alephnerd

2 months ago

> Engineering pay in the EU is bad

Yes, but it is comparable to the pay received in Asia - especially peer developed countries like Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan.

The issues that have lead to laggard innovation in the EU outside of niches like Biopharma are institutional in nature.

> I think all the talk around regulations, taxes, etc. are a side show...

I disagree about this as someone who has first hand experience about this w/ regards to the American semiconductor industry. Having a single window to manage disputes, get answers within days instead of months, and tax subsidizes should decisions not be guaranteed in a timely manner help reduce risk for massive capex investments.

This is what EU member states like Denmark provide for the biopharma industry, and a similar template could have been used for semiconductors. The issue is, the talent density for large swathes of electronics and computer engineering just doesn't exist in the EU anymore.

It can be fixed, but egos need to be set aside and individual European states will have to adopt industrial policy strategies similar to those that developing countries adopted to build their own domestic industries.

carabiner

2 months ago

Only 11 top level comments right now, and 354 total comments. To see just 3% of comments be top level is something.

silexia

2 months ago

AI generated comments, that's why.

hearsathought

2 months ago

> all they can think about is their own geopolitical narrative fed to them by the US state department.

It's almost like there is a propaganda campaign run all over social meda. Try a fun game, "What's it got to do with china?". Someone or something always tries to tie it to china.

constantcrying

2 months ago

As a European I have to say I am extremely jealous of a government with the willingness of doing something as radical as this.

Europe desperately needs to secure its own semi conductor supply chain. Neither the EU nor any member states seems willing to do anything about this though.

Europe still is in a position, where it feasibly could control 100% of the semiconductor value chain on the continent. But besides meaning posturing there is nothing being done.

traceroute66

2 months ago

> Europe desperately needs to secure its own semi conductor supply chain.

To be fair, Europe does have ASML which has something like 2/3 market share in DUV and almost monoplistic in EUV.

The moat is enormous, so they are unlikely to face any serious competition for at least a decade if not more.

ricardobeat

2 months ago

China is already catching up. They have a desktop-sized 14nm EUV machine, and Xiami is setting up a 3nm manufacturing line, both entirely with local tech. Thanks USA for the export ban.

ecshafer

2 months ago

China has been dumping massive amounts of resources in this for at least 20 years, this (Making chips domestically with local tech) has been a long term goal for a very long time. The chip ban is relatively recent. IF it had an effect it was merely expediting a process that was going to happen regardless. China was NEVER going to be content importing Western chips or western machines to make chips indefinitely.

andy_ppp

2 months ago

Xiami have designed a 3nm chip, however I am not convinced SMIC have a process for them to build the chip at any scale yet. Let's see - eventually China will obviously have a process comparable to TSMC but I think currently they are at least 18 months behind. They were 5 years behind before the sanctions so they are catching up fast.

speed_spread

2 months ago

They would be catching up anyway. At least now there will be a second source for the tech. ASML does fantastic work but they may not have all the answers.

traceroute66

2 months ago

> China is already catching up.

Sure of course, just like COMAC vs Airbus/Boeing, BYD vs Western EVs etc.

But this is a bit different IMHO.

First there's still a lot of catching-up to do.

And second are they going to be able to gain sufficient marketshare in the Western market ? I am thinking here, both in terms of displacing ASML and in terms of Western companies being willing to depend on Chinese tech for such critical activities.

aljgz

2 months ago

Selling chips or chip manufacturing equipment is one of the many ways to get a return on this investment.

There's a whole hierarchy of products and services that benefit from this. At any level that there is a ban/preference to not use Chinese products it translates to a lower price for the same technology, which feeds into the domestic market for dependent tech.

Nobody buys their chips? They build data centers and sell computation as service. That does not sell enough? Domestic R&D now has an edge, creating momentum for medicine, agriculture, consumer products, weapons.

You can ban a small country for a long time, or a large country for a small time, but not large for long

KK7NIL

2 months ago

> They have a desktop-sized 14nm EUV

Who falls for this crap? An ASML EUV machine costs over $100 million and is delivered in dozens of shipping containers, taking up 2 floors in a fab.

You're going to need really extraordinary evidence that the PRC has a "desktop sized EUV machine" if you want us to believe you.

ricardobeat

2 months ago

They announced this during an industry conference last week. It’s entirely different tech to ASML’s.

This is the company/machine: http://lumi-universe.com/?list_27/84.html

You can check the dimensions there, max 80cm. This is only the EUV light source, not an entire wafer fab.

anon291

2 months ago

Europe cannot actually do a whole of monopolization with ASML without incurring the wrath of its only armed forces, the United States of America. Europe is essentially a military junta controlled by a foreign power. They perceive themselves to be a country because they get to do elections and stuff. Cute

Not that Japan is much different

abc123abc123

2 months ago

Hah... europe will become king of the world! We'll tax and regulate ourselves to enormous wealth! No... jokes aside, europe is a failed union, and will slowly collapse or decompose in a decade or two.

Then we can again focus on trade, lowering taxs and creating value. The only thing that is happening now is that the political class has become enormously rich through bribes and by having managed to phase out democracy and enriching themselves.

amunozo

2 months ago

There are issues with Europe, no doubt. But this kind of comment is ridiculous.

watwut

2 months ago

You mean, like America is doing right now while simultaneously destroying its international position and quality of life?

tonyhart7

2 months ago

"simultaneously destroying its international position"

US has been doing the same thing for last 200 years and you act like its been different ???

oh, is that because you dnt get benefit as opposed to instability that US cause like middle east, south america, africa and asia ????

watwut

2 months ago

US was not destroying its own international position for 200 years. Their international position went all the way up in that period. It was also not destroying its own quality of life for 200 years.

mrweasel

2 months ago

Right now, sitting in Europe, wishing that Brussels was just ever so slightly more functional, you look out into the world and see how everyone else is doing, and you're reminded that things isn't actually that bad.

Tade0

2 months ago

> Europe still is in a position, where it feasibly could control 100% of the semiconductor value chain on the continent.

That's not possible. There are just too many different parts going into semiconductor production and they're scattered around the world.

Case in point: the source of the best semiconductor-grade quartz is located in Spruce Pine, North Carolina and while there exist alternatives, for cost-competetiveness you want that.

Hilariously enough it belongs to Sibelco, which is a Belgian company, but it's still US territory, so subject to local politics.

constantcrying

2 months ago

While it may be true that cost advantages are in that specific quartz, it is not some irreplaceable product. It absolutely would be possible to use other quartz, which would require more processing and increase costs.

Do you have any actual examples of things which could not be in sourced into Europe? I am very aware that for many reasons, among them costs, semiconductor fabrication is spread globally. But is there an actual reason why it would be impossible to have every single one of these pieces in some capacity in Europe?

Europe is continually moving further apart politically from both the US and China. Relying on the US for supplies and betting on Chinese, Taiwanese peace seems increasingly foolish. How can Europe secure itself in such an environment, without its own semiconductor supply chain?

jandrewrogers

2 months ago

A better example is the EUV lithography light sources used by ASML. They are manufactured in the US by a US company ASML acquired with technology licensed from US government labs. That critical part of the business is American in all but name.

It is possible that the EU could develop their own state-of-the-art lithography light sources but for now ASML is dependent on the US for it.

Findecanor

2 months ago

Silicon for solar cell production is currently being mined and refined in Sweden. What would it take to adapt that production line for semiconductor-grade silicon, I wonder.

duped

2 months ago

Small point worth bringing up, that quartz doesn't go into the ingots that get sliced into wafers (and then doped and diced into chips). It's used to make the crucibles that the ingots are grown in.

laughing_man

2 months ago

Isn't Europe the source of almost all the tooling that goes into brand new fabs?

calaphos

2 months ago

It's the one exception in the semiconductor supply chain where Europe is still leading. For all other parts of the value creation Europe is either a niche player at best or completely absent, well into the actual application layer.

iamacyborg

2 months ago

And the bits that go into those machines are themselves globally distributed.

FranzFerdiNaN

2 months ago

Nah, according to Hacker News Europe does nothing except exist and make up rules by 'bureaucrats'.

tdeck

2 months ago

It's the lack of 996 grindset holding Europe back.

RhysabOweyn

2 months ago

If only European bureaucrats mortgaged their entire economy on 500 AI scam companies that never produce any profit and sold off their entire manufacturing base to their main adversary. This is how real superpowers roll.

ahartmetz

2 months ago

Laptop sticker "This machine feeds bureaucrats". /s

tonyhart7

2 months ago

I think chinnese already made their own "ASML"

anonzzzies

2 months ago

With very bad results. I was walking a fab in China a few years ago: all machines are German, Japanese and Dutch. I asked why they don't have Chinese ones: the cto said they exist for the German and Japanese machines but they break much faster so it is not worth it and the asml machines are not there at all in any type of competitive form. It will happen, just not yet I guess.

jack_tripper

2 months ago

>the cto said they exist for the German and Japanese machines but they break much faster

Japanese cars would also break down much faster than US made cars in the 1950s, but eventually they figured out reliability and overtook US competition. What are the odds Chinese companies can repat this playbook?

They're also a critical player in supplying small drone parts to both sides in Russia Ukraine war. Maybe not the most reliable parts, but the scale is insane.

slightwinder

2 months ago

Intel was supposed to build something in Germany some years ago, didn't really work out because of reasons which seems to have been outside of Germany's control. So it's not that they are unwilling, but it just didn't succeed yet.

AdamN

2 months ago

They would have to include the UK and it would actually be a good European project (not just EU) to maybe bring them back into the fold.

noselasd

2 months ago

They are doing _something_ according to https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/european-c... . It'd be good for someone with more knowledge to summarise what this act means though.

constantcrying

2 months ago

This is so grim. What a stark difference to Japan. On one side there is a government setting up a new company, with the aim of competing at the highest end of the most complex technological process in existence. Meanwhile the EU is setting up bureaucrat managed funds to keep the remaining companies, currently suffering from the decline of the German auto industry, alive. Oh and they also paid TSMC to set up a factory, how pathetic.

p2detar

2 months ago

> Meanwhile the EU

What do you think the EU is? It's not a country, not a federative union. These things need a lot of discussions and synchronization among member countries, it does not work otherwise, so it takes time. I also hold the opinion that time is a resource the EU does not have, so it badly needs to reform itself - its framework no longer works for this "new age".

eldaisfish

2 months ago

the #1 problem with the EU's administrative structure is that its power comes from below, i.e. from the member states. Any of them could pull a Brexit and the entire union could be in jeopardy.

The #2 problem is language. Despite what many on HN think, European borders very much exist. They exist via language and bureaucracy.

These two combine to create many problems the EU and Europe in general has. The lack of vision, the excruciatingly slow bureaucracy, both are symptoms of the same underlying problems.

oblio

2 months ago

The EU can't really do anything. The EU is a loose confederation of countries that delegate responsibilities to this united body.

Japan is a single country with a single government that can unilaterally decide what it wants to do.

DeathArrow

2 months ago

But single countries in Europe can do something. If they choose to.

zer0tonin

2 months ago

The Netherlands has its own semi supply chain, from photolithographs to chip design to printing the actual chips.

yourusername

2 months ago

I don't think that's right. They make one of the many machines you need for semiconductor manufacturing. The NXP fab in Nijmegen makes simple components on a outdated 140nm+ process with 200mm wafers. Unless there is another fab that is making actual modern chips?

justin66

2 months ago

> They make one of the many machines you need for semiconductor manufacturing.

That's an especially obtuse way of minimizing the significance of their manufacture of the most complex machine ever made.

mono442

2 months ago

At least European countries excel at introducing new regulations and taxes.

constantcrying

2 months ago

Yeah. Who wants to be a military superpower or a manufacturing superpower, when they could be a regulatory superpower.

inglor_cz

2 months ago

One of our problems (EU citizen here too) is the delusion that because everyone in the world wants access to European markets, everyone will bend their knees to our regulations and we can effectively dictate the world's standards.

Given that our market share on the global economy is dropping steadily, this won't hold forever. By 2040 or so it might be more advantageous for Asian producers to just avoid our bureaucratized space altogether.

Already this year we had a showdown with Qatar over some ESG reporting and we lost handily, because we needed their gas more than they needed our money.

constantcrying

2 months ago

Exactly. For the past decades much of the world was entirely dependent on European products. This gave the EU and European countries enormous leverage in setting standards and enforcing their own regulations across the world. This is very clearly changing, in many areas European companies are depending on Chinese technology (e.g. EV batteries).

I am sure that some part of the EU establishment is aware of this, but the measure taken are practically laughable compared to the magnitude of the problem. At some future point in time dealing with the EU will just not be worth it, as competitive companies outside the EU, not weighed down by EU regulations, will fill the gaps and entering the EU market will be seen as too toxic.

riffraff

2 months ago

> By 2040 or so it might be more advantageous for Asian producers to just avoid our bureaucratized space altogether.

in favour of what? Every other large market (China, India, USA) has extreme protectionism in place.

sofixa

2 months ago

You're saying that like the two are at odds. France is a military superpower with almost entirely France, worst case scenario western EU, based supply chain. Italy, Spain, to a lesser extent Germany are too. Manufacturing is also pretty strong across (most) of the EU. Automotive is struggling in Germany, but booming in France (Renault are killing it). Leading in Aeronautics too. It's just mostly high value manufacturing. In the EU, 25% of the economy is in manufacturing. Compare with 10% in the US.

And those regulations are, more often than not, for everyone's benefit - at least EU, but often the Brussels effect applies so a lot of the rest of the world benefits too.

constantcrying

2 months ago

What you are saying is just not true. Frances car industry is dying. Renault is a small company, not even in the top 10 and Stellantis is doing extremely poorly, also affecting Italy's car industry. Within a decade or so COMAC will have a competitive passenger plane, seriously threatening Airbus market share.

Germany's entire industry is currently dying since it is impossible to have a cost competitive manufacturing industry while having some of the highest energy prices in the world.

Your entire comment looks at the current status quo, not at the continuous downward trend or the abyss which awaits if Stellantis or VW Group get pushed out of the market by Chinese competition.

Do you think Germany or France will continue to have a car industry, when China makes cars or the same quality for 70% of the price? Because that is currently the reality.

tw04

2 months ago

Imagine a government that considers its people more than tools for the wealthy to use and discard as they see fit! So many regulations meant to protect the plebes!

Universal healthcare? Vacation time you can actually use? Data privacy laws?

What a bunch of losers! Next you’ll tell me they actually give parents time off to raise their kids instead of dumping them into daycare after a month of drudgery and try to call it bonding !

modo_mario

2 months ago

>Imagine a government that considers its people more than tools for the wealthy to use and discard as they see fit!

Most European governments are for a long time now pushing migration hard overtly or subversively(since it's unpopular) arguing as if they're importing tools for the economy.

mono442

2 months ago

I wouldn't call European governments considering its people. Basically all of European countries suffer from housing crisis and nothing is being done to actually address it.

gsf_emergency_6

2 months ago

Some of the regulations make sense, like PFAS (correlated with chip manufacturing because HF is needed to etch Silicon and so fluoro-organics make great complements) And they seem to be sincere about it.

https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemi...

As for the Japanese professional classes, environmental issues are always an afterthought. Don't let the "harmonious" design philosophy of the fab fool you..that's tatemae. (Remember Jobs and pancreatic cancer? There's the price to pay for the shiny toys)

I wont be eating from Hokkaido if this pans out (their milk is overrated imho, but the seafood is top)

Maybe I'll get to eat more Austrian millet in the near future..

inglor_cz

2 months ago

This is a good initiative from Japan's government. On the other side, their bet on hydrogen is probably a very expensive blind alley.

Qiu_Zhanxuan

2 months ago

We spent the last 30 years showing deference to good old Uncle Sam, sometimes back-stabbing other member states in the process. How would we ever have the nerves to do something of this scale with all the cooperation, supply chain logistics and engineering complexity that this would involve ?

mikkupikku

2 months ago

Let's be real, it's not America's fault that the EU is dysfunctional in these regards. I'm sure that America does little to actually help, but the biggest problem the EU faces comes from their own internal corruption. Nothing gets done in Europe unless it can be restructured by their corrupt bureaucrats to pay all their friends and relatives, and the process of negotiating how to spread the graft around is highly political and takes many years. This is why the ESA is so dysfunctional despite Arianespace starting from a position of almost commercial launch market dominance at the end of the millennium. They're locked into Ariane 5 development even though it was obsolete on arrival and it will probably take them 20 years to negotiate the corrupt deals that will allow them to design and build something new. This cultural and political dysfunction in European society is entirely the fault of Europeans. India will send people to space before Europe.

Qiu_Zhanxuan

2 months ago

Haven't said otherwise, it's our elites "impotent" mentality that is to blame (excuse my french)

numbers_guy

2 months ago

European countries are willing to make big bets. The issue is with incompetent leadership. For example they made very big bets on quantum computing and particle accelerators for HEP, both of which have close to zero ROI. Meanwhile, up till very recently AI was sneered at as not "scientific" enough. This is a problem with leadership. The issue is mostly that we put people in leadership positions, who are experts in past technologies but those instincts do not translate well to present technologies.

tonyhart7

2 months ago

non sense

Google deepmind headquarter is located in Europe, US tech dominance just that good to attract talent all of europe

You can see list of AI researcher that comes from europe+asia

anonzzzies

2 months ago

That is incompeten5 leadership no? If your talent wants to move...

octaane

2 months ago

Notably though, Deepmind is based in London, UK - not the EU.

fastasucan

2 months ago

London is inside England, which is an european country.

tonyhart7

2 months ago

nowhere I mention EU and you EU crackhead cant comprehend Europe anymore huh????

ZguideZ

2 months ago

I'm an American who bought a house in Hokkaido and have been living there for 18 months. Hokkaido is wonderful and Chitose is close to Sapporro (more like a suburb), has an international airport (direct flights to Seoul, Taipei, Shanghai, etc) and the bullet train will be completed by 2030 from Tokyo to Sapporro. The nature and food are unrivaled in Hokkaido and in terms of the people and culture - until about the 1880s it was primarily an Ainu place but then large immigration from all parts of Japan which has created a unique culture in Hokkiado with aspects of culture from all of Japan's regions. What has been missing is industry. Resource extraction has been one industry in decline (fishing, timber, coal). Banking and finance have mostly been centred in Tokyo. A high tech chip industry in Hokkaido, in particular if Taiwan is merged with PRC might be exactly the thing for Hokkaido to boom - in particular since it is less prone to natural disasters and climate change may be warming things up.

Dracophoenix

2 months ago

A few questions:

How much did you pay for the house? How much rennovation did it need? Are you working remotely there? How did you acquire a house in an area that's less accommodating to English than Tokyo? Did you need/use a real estate agent?

supportengineer

2 months ago

Good choice with a proven track record. S. R. Hadden built an impressive machine there in the late 90’s.

pbrum

2 months ago

I resolutely approve of this comment. Bravo.

FeteCommuniste

2 months ago

"Why build one when you can have two at twice the price?"

octaane

2 months ago

This, on the surface, makes logistical sense. Chitose (the proposed location) is the international airport for and largest airport in Hokkaido (New Chitose Airport). Setting up a fab and related facilities right next to this location would seem to have obvious benefits.

alephnerd

2 months ago

Japan tends to be a favorite for most enterprise SaaS companies when opening an APJ sales foothold - no other Asian economy is of a similar size and open to Western firms.

Additionally, a Tokyo HQ often manages your South Korea and Taiwan operations as well because of legacy business ties from the colonial era as well as the flying geese era. That said, Sapporo does remain a bit of a niche area like Seattle or Portland before semiconductors because of how dominant Tokyo, Osaka, and Nagoya are.

Knock on wood the Rapidus helps spark a Japanese Beaverton.

ksec

2 months ago

That is just logistics, but what about power consumption, environmental issues next to agriculture etc. I am wondering why Hokkaido instead of other places in Japan.

rdl

2 months ago

Hokkaido is by a wide margin my favorite place in the world. If I could easily HQ a tech company there (for global sales; Japan domestic market is stagnant), I would.

1vuio0pswjnm7

2 months ago

Good snowboarding at Niseko back in the day

DeathArrow

2 months ago

Meanwhile in Europe...

embedding-shape

2 months ago

Meanwhile what? Europe already have chip manufacturing but focused on industrial and embedded usage, while others seems oriented towards consumer stuff.

agentifysh

2 months ago

isn't it risky to build this in a seismically active region? wouldn't somewhere that has almost no history of earthquakes like korea be better?

rich_sasha

2 months ago

It would be darkly amusing if all chips come from either politically unstable Taiwan or seismically unstable Hokkaido.

But then Japan seems amazing at producing all sorts of other delicate things, despite all of its soil being basically built out of earthquakes, so I guess they have this bit figured out.

KeplerBoy

2 months ago

Isn't Taiwan also seismically active? They are reports of earthquakes affecting TSMC fabs in january 2025 and april 2024.

Apparently these were not huge blows to their fabs, otherwise we would be talking about that day-in-day-out, but there's always a risk of that happening.

ehnto

2 months ago

Seems silly to be talking about this as if this is some kind of global consortium effort.

Japan is building Japan at semi conductor industry, for the benefit of itself, of course it is located in Japan.

KeplerBoy

2 months ago

Sure, Japan and Taiwan have no choice. They have to build on their seismically active islands or give up, which is not an option.

noduerme

2 months ago

That's not even a tough call if you had to lay odds on which would go offline first.

Is "politically unstable" once again an acceptable euphemism for a small democracy being threatened with destruction by a totalitarian superpower? I thought we decided that was gauche. After, say, the German invasion of Czechoslovakia.

RobotToaster

2 months ago

It's been in vogue since the American invasion of Vietnam

noduerme

2 months ago

right, another reason China shouldn't invoke it to invade a free country.

user

2 months ago

[deleted]

Braxton1980

2 months ago

I don't think China wants to destroy Taiwan. They want it to be a part of China.

SllX

2 months ago

Right now there is no non-violent path to achieving that because Taiwan intends to violently and militarily resist if it comes to that. Probably with the aid of America, although I’m a lot less certain of that than 5 year ago, and it’s looking like it’s a lot more likely to be with the aid of Japan as well.

Also a success by the PRC would still result in the political destruction of the Republic of China and the subjugation of its people.

n4r9

2 months ago

China wants to destory Taiwan's democracy, as OP said quite correctly.

rockskon

2 months ago

By force. Because Taiwan doesn't want to be a part of Beijing's China.

noduerme

2 months ago

Come here, chicken. I don't want to hurt you, I just want to eat you!

fankt

2 months ago

Become a part of a country with no freedom of speech? Yep, that's destruction.

inglor_cz

2 months ago

As a Czech who absolutely hates the Protectorate era, I can still see a good case to use somewhat neutral expressions like "politically unstable" if you want to discuss technical topics like supply chains without delving into the underlying politics.

Declaring "I am a friend of democracies threatened by totalitarian countries" before every economic utterance looks as performative and ultimately counterproductive to me as all the "land acknowledgments" that infected the US academia. (Not coincidentally, those don't help actual Amerindians at all.)

Yeah, Central Europe in the 1930s was politically unstable, no way around it. And it wasn't just question of Czechoslovakia vs. Germany either. Most countries had irredentist movements and/or land demands on their neighbours.

noduerme

2 months ago

So, let's say the TSMC is the modern equivalent in "supply chain" terms as Czech guns made in Plzeň, like the Škoda 75mm cannon - wait, let's rewind. I'm not saying Czechoslovakia was politically stable in 1939. I'm saying that when your neighbor claims they need to rescue you from instability - like when America says they need to rescue a Latin American or Middle Eastern country from "political instability" when that country elects someone who doesn't want the country's resources owned and run by companies with imperialist backing - that is code for a green light to conquer them and take their resources. The same as it was for the Germans. The same as it is for China re: Taiwan and Russia re: all the former Soviet republics. Declaring your neighbor "politically unstable" and presenting yourself as its savior was the clearest way in the 20th Century to declare war without any casus belli. I'm sure you wouldn't like your country to be invaded again if the powers around it decide you can't manage your own affairs.

[edit] I also spent about a year living in Prague and I love your country, Czechs are the best, and their sense of freedom is an immense relief from let's say other countries in the EU, so, I think it's amazing that you have maintained your independence from the enormous forces surrounding you and pulling in all directions. I think part of this is something I observed, that Czechs act like they are part of one small family.

elefanten

2 months ago

Spot on. And the mistake of considering appeasement of said totalitarian superpower by “letting them have it” would be just as enormous.

jabron

2 months ago

Comparing Nazi Germany and the PRC in any way is certainly an interesting choice, considering they're the one major power in the world that actually doesn't have a recent history of invading sovereign nations.

brabel

2 months ago

China doesn’t want to destroy Taiwan , it wants to reunite with it like it did with other territories that had been taken by foreign powers, like happened to Hong Kong and Macau. Taiwan was occupied by Japan and then never went back to being China after the Japanese were defeated because the Chinese Party that was defeated in the Revolution fled to the Island and never accepted the PRC as legit government in China. Some of the more nationalist Taiwanese even consider themselves to be the legit government in exile of all China. You seem to not understand any of that when you compare China with Nazi Germany, really embarrassing.

phantasmish

2 months ago

There’s definitely something embarrassing going on, and it starts but does not end with confusing destruction of a state with destruction of… I’m not even sure what you had in mind. The land? The infrastructure?

Taiwan’s democracy is absolutely threatened with destruction by a totalitarian superpower, that wasn’t in any way incorrect or misleading, and that’s how the GP post phrased it. Its state is threatened with destruction. That’s entirely accurate.

HarHarVeryFunny

2 months ago

I guess it depends on what sort of monetary damage the typical Hokkaido earthquake would have on a fab - just result in a bad batch of chips perhaps, or also damage equipment? Obviously it's known that the region is very seismically active (159 earthquakes in Hokkaido so far this year!), but Japan are used to having to build to minimize earthquake damage.

https://earthquaketrack.com/p/japan/hokkaido/recent

anonymous908213

2 months ago

I believe Koreans would find being colonized again to be at least a little bit objectionable.

Hokkaido is significantly safer compared to Honshu. It does still experience quakes, but it is at least not directly on major fault lines.

loeg

2 months ago

Japan doesn't have the option of building in Korea? Not if it wants to retain sovereign control.

SllX

2 months ago

Given Korea hasn’t been a Japanese colony since the War, and they want to build in their territory, options are limited.

SapporoChris

2 months ago

Japan is quite adept at building structures resistant to earthquakes and tsunami. I'd be very surprised if the designers and architects of this endeavor are unaware of the issues.

basisword

2 months ago

Why would the Japanese government back a company to build chips...in Korea?

Panoramix

2 months ago

TSMC is in a seismically active region

rkachowski

2 months ago

you have silicon valley right by the San Andreas fault line..

wjsdj2009

2 months ago

Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

voidfunc

2 months ago

Is Hokkaido defensible? Once China solves the Taiwan problem they're going to turn their sights on Korea and Japan.

jack_tripper

2 months ago

What's with all this scaremongering around China gonna invade everything anytime soon? How many wars has China started?

In my lifetime I've only seen one major county besides Russia having a habbit of starting illegal wars whenever geopolitics doesn't go its way and it's not China.

TulliusCicero

2 months ago

China routinely harasses Vietnamese/Filipino fishing boats IIRC to the point of boarding/assault, and it's expanding its territorial claims in the South China Sea illegally. It hasn't turned into a war yet because so far the other countries have just been taking it on the chin rather than more aggressively defending themselves.

There's a reason why so many countries in that region are very happy to partner with the US for military drills or support.

csomar

2 months ago

Wait till you find out Taiwan has the same claims.

rich_sasha

2 months ago

China kind of says a lot of things Russia was saying for the past 20 years. A lot of the wester world (not all) said, yeah yeah, it's all just talk. Then it wasn't.

I sincerely hope China doesn't go that was as it is to me, despite all its flaws, a super impressive country, but I think it careless to ignore warmongering talk.

jack_tripper

2 months ago

A LOT of countries on the planet talk about annexing their former territories, like Orbans Hungary. Others have actually done it (Armenia- Azerbaijan).

What do you want to do about it? Start a world war with them just in case to provent them from doing it (further)? Bombing them in the name of peace?

laughing_man

2 months ago

China has started border skirmishes with India every twenty years or so since the founding of the PRC. And then there's Tibet. Just because they haven't initiated a mass invasion of Eastern Siberia you shouldn't get the idea China isn't pursuing an expansionist foreign policy.

rfoo

2 months ago

China maintain the view that Tibet is part of China since the establishment of PRC, and they make this very explicit. Same for their border disputes with India. China never admitted that they believe it's not theirs. Mea while China does not ever say that Japan or Korea is part of China (and it's the only reason why they keep North Korea from collapsing despite it being super annoying).

So, again, any example of China suddenly started to claim lands?

kamaal

2 months ago

Speaking as an Indian. Most of these are just diplomatic flexing of muscles which mostly reduce to literally nothing.

There is not going to a be a war in the modern context.

Secondly, only one war has happened between China and India, in which arguably we Indians kind of started it- Read here- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_policy_(Sino-Indian_co...

""" The forward policy had Nehru identify a set of strategies designed with the ultimate goal of effectively forcing the Chinese from territory that the Indian government claimed. The doctrine was based on a theory that China would not likely launch an all-out war if India began to occupy territory that China considered to be its own. India's thinking was partly based on the fact that China had many external problems in early 1962, especially with one of the Taiwan Strait Crises. Also, Chinese leaders had insisted they did not wish a war.[18]

"""

iamacyborg

2 months ago

> And then there's Tibet.

I suspect they only care about Tibet in as much as it’s crucial for freshwater supply across significant parts of Asia, which is precisely why there are border clashes with Indian forces.

HeinzStuckeIt

2 months ago

The South China Morning Post itself recently wrote on speculation that Beijing could try to challenge Tokyo’s control of Okinawa, given its history and proximity to Taiwan.[0]

[0] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3333468/ch...

SenHeng

2 months ago

About a decade ago, some Chinese propagandists were encouraging calling Okinawa the Ryukyu kingdom and trying to ferment an independence campaign. It didn’t get too far.

ferguess_k

2 months ago

This is to counter the claim of the Japanese PM that Japan might join in the war if China goes for Taiwan.

keepamovin

2 months ago

That's a fair point if you only start the clock in 1949, but it's not scaremongering. It's pattern recognition over 3,000 years.

The territory we now call "China" is the product of relentless expansion and assimilation. Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia,d , Manchuria, much of the southwest... none were historically Han or Mandarin-speaking. Beijing's own justification is usually "they were Chinese all along" (because "genetics" -- or because they once paid tribute). That's the same logic every empire has ever used.

Modern Han Chinese themsleves carry heavy Mongol (Yuan) and other steppe ancestry, descendants of the single most successful conquest dynasty in human history.

For centuries the Chinese court literally styled itself the center of the world and demanded tribute from "barbarians" on every side. Zheng He's fleets in the 15th century were larger and reached farther than anything Europe fielded for another 80 years. China stopped because the court lost interest, not because it lacked capability or ambition.

Today's Nine-Dash Line, wolf-warrior diplomacy, and the "century of humiliation" narrative are all framed as restoring China's "rightful place." Xi's favorite phrase is "the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation," and the classical concept behind it is tianxia: "all under heaven" belongs, ultimately, under one orderly hierarchy (guess whose "manifest destiny" it is to sit at the top??).

So when people say "China doesn't invade," what they usually mean is "China prefers to win without fighting," which is straight out of Sun Tzu and exactly the current playbook. Pretending otherwise is how you lose the game before it even starts.

RobotToaster

2 months ago

> It's pattern recognition over 3,000 years.

Now do the same for the USA, UK, Japan, Italy, Turkey, etc.

mrguyorama

2 months ago

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLA_Navy_landing_barges

These do not have a non-hostile invasion purpose. China could have used these peacefully as some sort of "Look at how peaceful we are" PR in getting aid into Palestine, like the US's floating piers, and likely had better results, but they didn't, because these are war machines for invading Taiwan.

Almost all other military buildup China has done can be validly called protecting itself from a US blockade and maintain an ability to protect shipping, but these barges cannot be considered anything else.

>What's with all this scaremongering around China gonna invade everything anytime soon?

China has publicly declared their intentions to take back Taiwan, and publicly declared their intent to be militarily competitive with the United States, and publicly bitches and moans whenever anyone treats Taiwan as the independent country it is.

Stop squeezing your eyes shut.

danielscrubs

2 months ago

US needs China to have something for us to rally against, otherwise focus might be on the asset owners vs workers, which would cripple us.

We need to win the AI race! The implication being that there can not be more than one winner…

riffraff

2 months ago

since WW2: Annexation of Tibet, Taiwan Strait Crisis, Sino-Indian War, Sino-Vietnamese War.

BoxedEmpathy

2 months ago

Also Korean War, 1959 Tibetan Uprising, Nathu La and Cho La clashes, Sino-Soviet Border Conflict, Paracel Islands conflict, Sino-Vietnam border clashes, Johnson South Reef Skirmish, China–India border clashes (Galwan), South China Sea standoffs.

testdelacc1

2 months ago

> How many wars has China started?

In 1962 China launched a surprise war against India completely unprovoked over some border territory. China’s aggression continues unabated even into present day - they’ve been illegally annexing territory in Bhutan to put pressure on India. That has been China’s way of negotiating all their borders - through violence first. More can always be said but here’s a simple 2 minute video explaining the 1962 war - https://youtu.be/zCePMVvl1ek.

Here you are defending China when I bet you’d be hard pressed to point to Bhutan or Aksai Chin or the Chicken’s Neck on a map. But those are lesser known places. Are you seriously claiming you don’t know of the Nine Dash line and the violence with which China enforces its absurd maritime claims?

numpad0

2 months ago

Traditional threat to Hokkaido is Soviet tank battalions, not Chinese. It's roughly due east to Vladivostok and to south of Sakhalin island. Unless Russian Federation actually falls and these regions change hands into hostile entities, it should be okay. And there will be more important things to worry than continuing economical chip production if that happens.

BoxedEmpathy

2 months ago

“We have no choice but to cut off that dirty neck that has lunged at us, without a moment’s hesitation. Are you ready?” -Chinese Consul-General in Osaka, Xue Jian, directed at Japan

Is that not a threat?

numpad0

2 months ago

Japan's also like, long as the distance between Warsaw to Barcelona. Or to Gibraltar if you include islands south to Okinawa. And Hokkaido is an "island" that's about as big as the entire Czech Republic. Is investment in a French chip factory considered risky because it's practically right in front of Russia... not really no?

The Chinese threat is also being handled by rapid rearmament. JSDF has been like, dual-fast-tracking lots of things including MRBMs for operational capabilities in 2026-27 timeframes.

ZguideZ

2 months ago

I found this a really funny thread of answers to read. Maybe Japan should start making historical claims like China does. Japan could claim much of Asia, create a new historical narrative that the atrocities were manufactured fake news and that the oppressed peoples of Taiwan, Korea, Nanjing, South East Asia, and Oceania were illegally forced to leave the Japanese Empire due to propaganda and illegal militantism where the victors then created a fake narrative of Japanese war crimes. Maybe Japan should tear up the peacenik constitution that was forced on it by Nuclear USA and written by a woman from Kansas and turn the SDF back into the Japanese War Machine - revive industries, begin to reclaim territories for essential resources, and once again move towards the creation of a glorious co-prosperity sphere. The US seems to be reviving the NAZI war machine and is only steps away from adopting swastika as a positive symbol, so why not Japan bring back the old flag and mentality too? - I know this is ridiculous. So are most of these comments.

macleginn

2 months ago

Japan has a big army/"self-defence force", impenetrable terrain over most of its territory, and 45 tonnes of plutonium. Even if the defence treaty with the US vanishes, the probability of a foreign invasion is rather low.

SapporoChris

2 months ago

Yes. But I will entertain the idea that Hokkaido is not defensible. Now, with Hokkaido not being defensible, please explain why it has been an Japanese territory since the 15th century?

Mistletoe

2 months ago

If we aren’t already in a world war from China solving Taiwan as you say, we would be in one from China taking Korea or Japan.

actionfromafar

2 months ago

I don't know. China is pretty successful so far in "solving Ukraine" by propping up the moth infested bear pelt USSR animatronic that is Russia.

ReptileMan

2 months ago

Taiwan just the last remnant that the losing faction of the China civil war still holds. I don't think that China wants to conquer korea or japan. Having a vassal is usually cheaper than outright conquest and occupation. They just want the US vassals to switch to being China's

laughing_man

2 months ago

"Once China solves the Taiwan problem"? Then I suppose Japan has nothing to worry about.

BoxedEmpathy

2 months ago

“We have no choice but to cut off that dirty neck that has lunged at us, without a moment’s hesitation. Are you ready?”

- Chinese Consul-General in Osaka, Xue Jian, in reference to Japan

dragonelite

2 months ago

It depends what japan and korea will do to piss of China just to please their far away masters.

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

> Once China solves the Taiwan problem they're going to turn their sights on Korea and Japan.

China will not annex Japan or South Korea. As a Chinese person, I can assure you that this is not how our mindset works at all. Most of the Western media hype about this is deliberately designed to muddy the waters around the Taiwan issue. Taiwan is different: the vast majority of people there are ethnically Chinese, so reunification is seen as an absolute necessity. But historically, China has never been good at ruling non-Han peoples. Every non-Chinese group has always been viewed as a net burden. Take Myanmar as an example: even if China occupied it and gained a warm-water port, the price would be having to assimilate tens of millions of Burmese people. That cost is simply too high; no one in China wants to pay it. The Chinese way of thinking is that only after a group has been fully Sinicized (language, culture, identity) can they be considered “one of us.” So with South Korea and Japan, the real goal is to surpass them industrially and economically, to leave them in the dust on the factory floor and in the lab. When it comes to Japan in particular, the deepest desire in many Chinese hearts is for Japan to start a war first—so China can finally settle the historical score once and for all. But even in that scenario, turning Japan into “part of China” is not on the table. No one wants 125 million thoroughly non-Sinicized Japanese inside the country; that would be seen as an endless headache, not a prize.

voidfunc

2 months ago

> Taiwan is different: the vast majority of people there are ethnically Chinese, so reunification is seen as an absolute necessity.

Your illegitimate authoritarian government is free to surrender at any time and hand the keys back to the legitimate democratic ROC government then.

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

yeah its a civil war, lets see who will won.

(Thank you for acknowledging that this is a civil war — that's something you rarely see on Western forums.)

ivell

2 months ago

> That cost is simply too high; no one in China wants to pay it

China was happy to invade Tibet and assimilate it's population.

Hard to believe that a government who claims all of South China sea, large parts of India (Arunachal Pradesh) does not want to expand.

Or do you think people of Arunachal Pradesh are also Chinese?

quickthrowman

2 months ago

Tibet is not (and was not) defended by a nuclear superpower. South Korea and Japan both have United States military bases and troops stationed there.

I am willing to bet all of the money I will ever make in my lifetime that China will not invade either one as long as they remain under the US nuclear umbrella.

mytailorisrich

2 months ago

Arunachal Pradesh is a historic part of Tibet and was part of the Qing Empire before the Chinese revolution of 1912.

When Tibet then broke away from China the Brits got what is now Arunachal Pradesh from Tibet.

Hence the ongoing Chinese claim but the days of any military actions are long gone.

curseofcasandra

2 months ago

For those unfamiliar with the history, Taiwan’s (ROC) own constitution says it is part of China. Its dispute is with the CCP, not China itself.

Conflating the PRC vs ROC conflict with a China vs Japan conflict is just ignorant.

alisonatwork

2 months ago

That is, the constitution written by the KMT dictatorship that was awarded the island as spoils of war after the Japanese surrendered to the Allies in WW2.

In the present day, neither the Taiwanese government nor Taiwanese people are in some kind of dispute with the CCP over who owns Gansu province or whatever, they just would like recognition of their already-existing sovereignty.

loeg

2 months ago

The ROC claims it is China, not a part of China.

But sibling comment is correct that today the PRC and ROC are functionally two separate nations, and neither wants unification by submitting completely to the other. So the only way it's happening is with force.

BoxedEmpathy

2 months ago

“We have no choice but to cut off that dirty neck that has lunged at us, without a moment’s hesitation. Are you ready?”

- Chinese Consul-General in Osaka, Xue Jian, addressing Japan

macleginn

2 months ago

> But historically, China has never been good at ruling non-Han peoples.

"Good" is not a very objective term, but China does have 55 official minorities, coming from a long period of imperial expansion, so arguably it can be done.

> The Chinese way of thinking is that only after a group has been fully Sinicized (language, culture, identity) can they be considered “one of us.”

Firstly, this is a troubling statement, again given that China has 55 official minorities, who are evidently failures of assimilation more than anything.

Secondly, there are other ways of imperial sovereignty: Vietnam was a Chinese dominion for a longest time, and Korea was effectively ruled from China as well.

In other words, China has a long and not very remote history of territorial expansion and old-school dependent-state imperialism. The fact that the Han have a very strong cultural identity and do not find it easy to coexist with other peoples doesn't help either: just look at the history of the relations between Britain and Ireland.

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

> "Good" is not a very objective term, but China does have 55 official minorities, coming from a long period of imperial expansion, so arguably it can be done.

Don’t forget the history of Northern Wei, Yuan Dynasty, and Qing Dynasty – none of them were products of “Han Chinese imperialism.”

forgotoldacc

2 months ago

I read Chinese news from China in Chinese sometimes to get a bit of language practice. It's not western media reporting that China says Okinawa isn't legitimate Japanese territory. It's Chinese state media saying Okinawa needs to be "liberated" from Japan.

Fears that China one day tries a Russian approach by saying "no way bro. We'd never try to take Georgia. Nah bro. We'd never try to take Crimea. Nah dude. We'd never try to take eastern Ukraine. Nope. We definitely aren't interested in taking Poland." aren't exactly baseless. And just like with Russia, they justify their prodding of a sovereign country as "well it's our territory" (it isn't). China already has fighter jets and ships going around the Senkaku Islands periodically. It's clear they'll take them and push further and further if they think they can get away with it.

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

And they will never become part of China again, ever. They once were, and after World War II they were supposed to be handed over to the Republic of China (Nationalist government), but the Nationalists stupidly refused. Then the United States gave them to Japan as a reward. This completely violated the post-WWII United Nations agreements. So if the UN still wants to claim any legitimacy or relevance, these places should not belong to Japan, but they will never belong to China either.

kalaksi

2 months ago

> Taiwan is different: the vast majority of people there are ethnically Chinese, so reunification is seen as an absolute necessity.

How does that make it a "necessity"? It's not for China to decide? This is the reasoning Russia uses when invading neighboring countries. To "protect" russian people and claim that <insert part of country> are russians anyway and want to get annexed (still wouldn't make it right). If someone wants to join Russia, they should move to Russia.

(Or maybe it could happen through some longer and slower political process. And the country as a whole should agree, with a lot more than 50% agreeing, to a unification.)

> The Chinese way of thinking is that only after a group has been fully Sinicized (language, culture, identity) can they be considered “one of us.”

Like above, I hope you're not implying that a culturally similar people in another country #2 somehow gives country #1 power over it's sovereignity.

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

> It's not for China to decide?

do your homework, taiwan also claims its china. maybe you mean its not for them to decide?

sofixa

2 months ago

> How does that make it a "necessity"? It's not for China to decide? This is the reasoning Russia uses when invading neighboring countries. To "protect" russian people and claim that <insert part of country> are russians anyway and want to get annexed (still wouldn't make it right). If someone wants to join Russia, they should move to Russia.

The difference is that Taiwan only exists because the losers of the Chinese Civil war ran away to it, and the winners (CCP) were not allowed by the US to finish the job. So for the CCP, Taiwan has always been a problem still left to resolve, an American thorn in their side. It was along the main reasons for them joining the Korean war, because the monumentally dumb McArthur publicly praised and supported Chiang (the leader of the losers of the civil war, the KMT), which led to CCP fears the US will use the Korean peninsula as a sprinboard to attack them and install Chiang back to power.

So while self-determination trumps those concerns for my personal view, I can totally see where China (CCP) is coming from. Especially with a very aggressive American stance against them, why would they want to keep a very friendly to the US runaway province out there?

For Americans, imagine the Confederates ran away to Puerto Rico, force assimilated the locals, and became very friendly with Russia. For the French, that a Bonaparte was ruling Corsica while being friendly with the big bad wolf (depending on the age, Brits or Russians maybe). And on and on.

adrian_b

2 months ago

The majority of the people of Taiwan are ethnically Chinese, but this is a relatively recent status. Taiwan is not an ancient part of China.

Taiwan has become ethnically Chinese in 2 stages, first an immigration from the neighboring Chinese province that is a few centuries old, then the invasion of the island by Kuomintang at the end of WWII, which took the political power from the native Chinese.

So Taiwan has become a Chinese-populated territory only during the last few centuries, and the desire to unite it with mainland China is not something that can reassure China's neighbors that this is where its desire of expansion will stop.

_t9ow

2 months ago

> not something that can reassure China's neighbors that this is where its desire of expansion will stop

May I ask if you actually live in one of these neighbouring countries? I do -- in fact I have lived in more than one -- and I can assure you that many/most people living in these areas outside of the Western media bubble absolutely do not share your view.

From the CCP's (and many Chinese people's) perspective:

1) the U.S. repeatedly interfered in the CCP's/KMT's attempts to resolve the civil war -- see e.g. the First and Second Taiwan Strait Crises (during which the PRC shelled Taiwan), Project National Glory (the ROC's plan to reconquer the mainland) -- preventing the mainland and Taiwan from reunification;

2) the Taiwanese government has lost the civil war, and the loser doesn't get to set the terms.

Pretending that the PRC's interest in Taiwan isn't special is to ignore extremely crucial historical circumstances that are core to understanding the situation today. Regardless of what you think of the PRC's stance on reunification, their desire to reunify doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it takes ahistorical leaps of reasoning to suggest that the PRC might want to annex South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines, etc. next.

> only during the last few centuries

This is way more than enough time to drastically transform the culture of a society. Taiwan today is culturally much more similar to the PRC than it is to the West. In some aspects it is also similar to Japan, despite the fact that Japan colonised it for "only" 50 years.

mafribe

2 months ago

Exactly.

Taiwan has spent the approx 120 years on a very different political, economic, cultural track from the mainland. Taiwan diverged from the other subject of the Qing dynasty before Han nationalists began their century long project to forge a united Chinese nation. In particular, Taiwan did not go through decades of communist terror, but did experience the fruit of democracy.

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

During the American Civil War, the majority of the population in the Deep South states were actually Black slaves

swordsmith

2 months ago

> No one wants 125 million thoroughly non-Sinicized Japanese inside the country; that would be seen as an endless headache, not a prize.

I don't think what you claim the people want matters (if even true). Look at Tibet and Xinjiang

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

Xinjiang and Tibet have been part of China for many periods throughout history; Japan never was. At most, Korea was merely part of the tributary system. There is a fundamental difference here.

inkyoto

2 months ago

> Take Myanmar as an example: even if China occupied it […]

Historically, however, the record is rather unflattering for China in its engagements with Myanmar (formerly Burma) – China has waged four wars[0] with Myanmar and suffered a defeat to Myanmar in each instance.

[0] Or one war with four invasions – depending on the point of view.

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

so i guess the Mayanmar people shouldn't blame china now.. they should build some thing like the Vietness people: we fight the chinese and we always win, lets be proud of it.

corimaith

2 months ago

Invasion is one thing, unfavorable trade deals, deindustrialization, and political coercion is more realistic outcome yet all the more undesirable. Imperialism after all often didn't spread spread by outright conquest.

NalNezumi

2 months ago

While I'd like to believe this, I also know that CCP have as of late tapped in to a dangerous remedy for the dissatisfaction of their rule(economic slowdown): Nationalistic fervor.

From my Chinese friends (and Hong Kong friends) it seems to be clear that the "century of humiliation" rhetoric is getting more prominent. Which includes rationalization such as "Japan and West (and Russia) humiliated us so it's our right to revenge. Whatever they're complaining about right now is just historical rebalancing". My British friend in HK seems to be getting tired of this rhetoric thrown at her every time she meets a Chinese person.

And CCP might be drinking that nationalism koolaid and get hooked to it just as US/West and recently Japan is. It's a very useful tool for the elite to dissipate discontent and I'd belive it will only accelerate.

And it's a strong rationalization rhetoric. Whatever "historical" you claim will probably be moot. Give us a decade or two and you'd probably be here posting something along the line, with multiple citations that have accumulated during the time

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

Sure, nationalism definitely serves that purpose. But please consider: in the most recent conflicts/flare-ups, the initiator has actually been Japan, not China. Their new female prime minister is an extreme-right-wing politician who is not only provoking China, but also picking fights with South Korea and Russia at the same time, while pushing aggressively anti-immigrant and exclusionary policies. Her approval ratings are also unusually high. It feels pretty strange that Japan gets zero criticism for this while all the focus stays on China.

thaumasiotes

2 months ago

> Take Myanmar as an example: even if China occupied it and gained a warm-water port

What, does the Pearl River freeze over in winter?

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

we also would like to have Vladivostok back

YurgenJurgensen

2 months ago

The CCP has demonstrated that it’s not above killing tens of millions of its own citizens to achieve its political aims. I doubt they’d see ‘pacifying’ an occupied population as much of an issue.

yanhangyhy

2 months ago

you sounds dispointed. but i believe the future will tell you the truth and i'm telling the facts.

user

2 months ago

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boringg

2 months ago

What kind of line is "once china solves the taiwan problem"? You assume that they will take Taiwan. Have you not been privy to the utter embarrassment of a continental power trying to take Ukraine right now? China is very aware of the isolated situation Russia is now in. They have desire to be in that situation.

Noone is letting China "solve the taiwan problem" like you said.

Such inflammatory language.

mrguyorama

2 months ago

The Ukraine invasion is the biggest boost to China's Taiwan invasion plan ever.

If the world reacts to a Chinese invasion of Taiwan the way we have reacted to Russia invading Ukraine, China will consider that a great victory, and might be able to take Taiwan.

If the US, Japan, and Korea do not commit fully to naval interdiction and blockading China from attacking Taiwan, Taiwan is likely to fall eventually.

China is not Russia. Xi somehow is not as utterly isolated from reality as Putin is. Putin didn't even know that Ukraine would resist, and was entirely convinced that Ukrainians would welcome them. China can build new equipment, and new modern equipment at that. Russia can barely manage to bring ancient tank hulls up to 2000s level and send them to the front line. They are also running out of old hulls to do that with.

China has a sizeable and meaningful air force, modern battlespace management that was shown effective by Pakistan's use in their recent conflict.

Is the current US admin actually competent enough to protect Taiwan even if they want to?

TheThirdNuke

2 months ago

The Soviets trivially took the Kuril Islands and they can trivially defeat Japan if they so desire. China's also really interested in Okinawa independence. Both countries have appealed to arguments on liberating indigenous populations to hint at future military action against Japan.

It's a future war zone through and through, especially now that their PM is LARPing as Hirohito reincarnate.

ta20240528

2 months ago

Can you clarify this for me: the Soviets don't exist, so how can they possibly take the whole of Japan - in some future?

If you mean Russia, then no.

TheThirdNuke

2 months ago

Ukraine has a proper army and the support of Europe, albeit with dated weapons. Japan has neither and it's dubious whether the United States would step in. Hokkaido has always been under threat from Russia and the Soviets quickly took the Kuril Islands, which wasn't even originally theirs.

ithkuil

2 months ago

Japan defeated the Russian navy in 1905. I guess that means that the Empire of Japan can trivially defeat the Russian Empire if such political entities cared to exist anymore and if the result of a past confrontation was a true benchmark of the current capabilities of the respective armies and economies.

user

2 months ago

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user

2 months ago

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keepamovin

2 months ago

Maybe we should stop selecting islands next to China to be global critical supply chain hubs. I mean, even if the Chinese were non-expansionist and benevolent, it's still kind of tempting them a little too much.

mikkupikku

2 months ago

Who is "we"? Japan doesn't have much choice, they either do things even though they are next to China, or ..what?

Maybe its time for people to stop being paralyzed by fear and invest in their future. If China is such a severe threat to Japan, then invest more in the JSDF. Yes, China is powerful and has an aggressive stance, but that's no reason to give up without a fight. Japan and South Korea together can very nearly match China's shipbuilding tonnage per year, and besides that Japan collaborates with America to develop advanced naval missiles like the SM-3 Block IIA. Effective deterrence of China w.r.t. Japan should be achievable if people stop overdosing on blackpills.

somerandomqaguy

2 months ago

They already are investing in the JSDF. The JS Chokai is in San Diego right now being equipped with Tomahawk cruise missles, but AFAIK the plan is to equipped all 8 Kongo class destroyers with those missles.

And that's just one part of the expansion. But the short version is that the JSDF isn't staying a defensive only institution.

codedokode

2 months ago

Nowadays, are large ships well protected from small unmanned underwater ships? Are they worth building?

keepamovin

2 months ago

This is more of a humorous take. We already have trouble with one chip nexus is right next to China, and now we build another one? "ha ha". We is humanity. The collective we probably doesn't want a lever of the future controlled by a totalitarian communist ehnostate.

But yes, I agree Japan, Indonesia (as was intended), etc should wise up.

mikkupikku

2 months ago

"We already have trouble with one chip nexus is right next to China, and now we build another one? "ha ha". We is humanity."

Your "whole humanity 'We'" isn't who's investing in chip industry in Hokkaido. It's Japan.

DoughnutHole

2 months ago

This is Japan selecting itself to develop a critical industry.

Being deeply embedded in global supply chains and your allies’ economies makes it a lot more difficult for them to justify abandoning you to your enemies.

pezezin

2 months ago

Hokkaido is not close to China... it is close to Russia, I don't know what is worse xD

yourusername

2 months ago

This is 750 km from China (going through Russia) and a 2600km trip from China's nearest port. If this isn't safe enough is all of Asia off limits then?

zawaideh

2 months ago

How many bases does china have around the world? How many does the US?

tdeck

2 months ago

Imagine if China built one base in Mexico or the Caribbean. People would be treating it like a declaration of war. Meanwhile the US builds a ring of military bases in countries surrounding China and that's not supposed to be seen as bellicose in any way.

MangoCoffee

2 months ago

> Meanwhile the US builds a ring of military bases in countries surrounding China and that's not supposed to be seen as bellicose in any way.

Shouldn't you take WWII history into the account?

1. South Korea - Korean war happened and majority of South Korean want US military base there 'cause you know North Korea with its nukes point at Seoul.

2. Japan - well, everyone know what happened and the treaty were signed thus military base in Japan.

keepamovin

2 months ago

That's because the US was founded on a unique constitution to empower individuals against tyranny, then defeated (with Russia, mind) the Nazis in world war II, bootstrapped the UN, went to the moon, and ushered in an era of global leadership and peace, along with unmatched soft power (films, news, etc). Camelot, shining city on the hill. China had a bloody communist revolution, then got rich (in part by breaking deals and ripping off IP) - also through hard work. America is porous, "Shortbus", "anyone can make it", American dream. China is ethnonationalist, and has a sense of ethnic and cultural supremacy that is not inclusive of "outsiders". That's why it's a problem, and, rightly, seen/intuitied to be a problem, more so than the US (despite US' many failings/misteps, etc).

user

2 months ago

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user

2 months ago

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