Incidentally, most repairs to an HVAC system are quite self serviceable.

The channel https://www.youtube.com/@WordofAdviceTV/videos has saved me a lot of money.

On a complete tangent on the topic of “home maintenance you should know”, hot water tanks should be purged yearly (to get rid of the debris collecting on the bottom), and have a sacrificial anode rod to stop corrosion and should be replaced every ~3 years (magnesium) or ~5 years (aluminum)

Some of the things I've personally encountered are attempts to service refrigerant without first weighing tank, and a claim that R-22 systems can no longer be serviced due to EPA refrigerant ban; I suspect these are very common grifts.

Still worse, a brazen attempt to service an older R-22 system with R-410A, which would have completely destroyed a heat pump that I ended up getting an additional 5 years of serviceable life out of (after dismissing that clown on the spot).

Other ridiculous mistakes I've had to deal with are incorrect wiring of air handler emergency heat source during initial installation that prevented system from cooling; and on that same heat pump system less than a year later, discovering an improperly secured lug within exterior disconnect box that eventually created enough heat to fry ~6 inches of insulation before failing open and killing power to compressor (in retrospect, city inspector not only should have caught this, but should have required the contractor to replace the disconnect box altogether to remain in compliance with prevailing residential building code).

The grift has gotten so bad over the years that a few friends---a professional ME and electrician---have gone out of their way to earn § 608 tech certs[1] to legally purchase refrigerant and have sufficiently tooled themselves up to handle common failure modes.

[1] https://www.epa.gov/section608/section-608-technician-certif...

Try $250 for a capacitor here in Texas - they know you can’t afford to take a few days to shop around due to the heat. What I’ve found works over the years: get the phone number of a few HVAC guys as you encounter them and offer them $50 to come when you need them. They’ll never pull the “you should cal l my employer” because most are contractors who need to buy their own equipment.

I've had people come out and look at my furnace because it wasn't turning on properly.

They looked at it for 5 minutes, told me it's too old and needs to be replaced.

It needed a $5 sensor which I replaced myself after doing some basic testing. There are so many grifters in the trades. It is so hard someone honest, that is going to show up on time and do the job.

I almost want to start or buy a construction business.

Could someone ELI5 why AC capacitors are so fragile? I had one fail last year on a unit that was just out of warranty.

Our vet graduated before I was born, and I'm really old. He still charges 1978 prices. Hoping he hangs on until our last batch of cats goes on to coyote heaven.

Hm what’s the best way to look up the owner of a business? I share this viewpoint on dentists and doctors

Just curious, how do you verify this?

I have thinking about doing this for a while. How does one go about verifying whether a business is PE owned or not?

How do you find out who owns the business?

Literally what kind of question would you ask on the phone?

The model of PE in dentistry / veterinary clinics is to buy out all the private clinics in a region, then gradually raise prices. Small businesses would pop up, but the training horizon for new dentists / vets is quite long.

It isn't really about economies of scale so much as using local monopolies to set prices. They have a good moat because regulatory bodies have not regulated monopolies for 30 years, and professional organizations limit entry to each field.

I was talking about politics and our general social discussion about trade school vs university. Obviously that’s a centuries’ old discussion, but I don’t recall talk of plumbers vis a vis the benefits of college specifically before Joe the Plumber, and now it comes up all the time.

What does this sitcom episode demonstrate, exactly? Haven’t seen it, but from the description the title’s pun is based on the relationship of the characters, and not income or education. Is there a relevant storyline not described in the notes?

The article didn’t run with PE bad, it’s implying the opposite. And yes, exactly, reinforcing the questionable American Dream narrative while sort of ignoring or obscuring that they’re talking about a tiny number of people getting one-time lucky at the expense of everyone, especially the average tradesperson.

I come from a small town that is dominated by chemical refineries. I know people who are electricians, HVAC repairmen, plumbers, pipefitters, and process operators. You know what scares them more than anything else in the world? A corporate policy against overtime. Many of them will pick up any extra shift they can get. They LIVE for plant turnarounds where they're basically paid 24/7 for a couple of months to essentially eat, breathe, and sleep at the plant to be on call because it's how they go financially from a lower middle class lifestyle to being solidly middle class. This is what pays their mortgages, their hunting leases, their bass boats, and the limited edition F-150 to do all that stuff with.

> the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn.

Looking at BLS wage statistics for tradesmen really won't tell you anything about the financial well-being of private small business entrepreneurs; you need to be looking at their company's financial statements---which is quite privileged data---for a meaningful idea.

in the construction I saw, there were several big groups of electricians.. a) ratty, self-employed often with serious baggage or obvious deficits.. can be paid well or very badly.. insurance is a problem; b) big company that hires and fires frequently.. wears a uniform, clean tools and trucks.. do not expect anything different than the work order, and sometimes a pawn in some kind of low-ethics moves between developers and service company; c) career, union electricians.. involved in very large, slow moving, multi-part works.. by the book, can do industrial installation in large teams; all manner of insurance, and also health care and retirement benefits. Modern times? probably add non-English speaking versions of (a) and (b). The pay varies quite a lot between those situations.

My nephew is a fifo sparky for some mines, his base is 200K AUD, I don't know how much he makes in allowances on top. He's on call 24 hours though and just has to fly somewhere at a moments notice.

It’s very regional, for instance in Quincy Washington they are actively constructing well over a million square feet of data centers. Each one has hundreds of electricians working in it. My personal friend is clearing $350k before union benefits the last three years as an electrical foreman. They work 6 days a week 3 weeks a month and work 10 hour days in a really small town. Union work, prevailing wage, over time and completion bonuses increase the pay in these jobs to be triple what a local electrician would make doing house calls. Of the 500 heads my friend oversees, most are not even from this state. But… once those data centers are done being built the economy will crash for many local business rely on those high paying jobs. Restaurants, hotels, etc are hit hardest. And a lot of the workers will to another “hot” region, or go back to where they came from and earn half. I know a few that “retired” by 40, making $300k living in a trailer on site, in a town with nothing to do after 8, gives you a lot of chance to save money.

> This general topic about trade workers pops up on HN periodically and there is always some discussion about high-earning people working in the trades. But I can't find any data that actually supports this statement - the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn.

That's because high earning tradespeople are typically not wage earners. They operate their own companies.

There's a number of reasons for that; although I'm not based in the US so it vary. The business/self employed earn significantly more than someone working under someone else where I live. There are also a number of benefits particularly tax wise which means you normally need to discount a white-collar wage significantly to compare blue-collar wages like for like (somewhat like 30-40% at least). Official statistics you quote are usually employment and/or tax statistics - none which are reflective of the actual money available to spend for the trade worker.

Talking to them the common threads are:

- Cash based jobs. e.g. I charge my materials to the business (tax expense) and give the customer a small discount (say 10%) if they pay in cash. Assuming a 30% tax rate it means I can make for tax purposes my income less and my expenses more. In the end however I'm significantly ahead - any savings I've given to the customer are more than offset by tax savings.

- Income splitting: Wife "does the books" after hours, I split the income two ways. This way I don't pay as much tax in a regressive tax system as I can push myself to a lower tax band. If you want a single income family, better to own a trade business than be a professional. NOTE: Some countries/places support this more than others, if a country has good income splitting laws this diminishes this advantage.

- Favors: A lot of money is earned by mutual favors rather than monetary transfers especially in renovations/etc. e.g. I will do the plumbing for your house, and mine, you can do the concrete slab for both houses and we will call it square. Trades people typically know other trades people and a lot of the property can be built that way. No money exchanged, no tax paid. But the capital gains from renovations can be substantial - and tax of them can be deferred till sale. I've seen people earn millions this way, completely dwarfing their business income. Capital gains in most countries is also taxed at a lower rate and there's a lot of exemptions (i.e. if you live in it, etc). The benefits of this over many renovations can add to millions in extra wealth, none of it reported as income and under taxed.

- Asset Depreciation/Write Off: Want that big pick up truck? But want to pay the same after tax price as a small hatch? Claim it on your business, write it off, and expense it. May not apply as strongly in the US, but I've seen workers with very expensive cars here for the same after tax price as I could buy a simple sedan for. This applies to other things like tools for the house, etc.

All of the above reduces the official statistics substantially as under reporting, and makes blue collar a lot more appealing than it may seem on the surface. I would argue a self employed blue collar worker on say $120k would be as good as a white collar worker on $200k where I live, maybe even more. If you have a family and are a single income earner in some countries it makes sense to jump straight into blue collar.

It's not just about the money. Most people want a lazy bullshit office job rather than hard physical labour.

Climbing ladders isn't a lot of fun when you reach 40.

Rough framers cutting and nailing together dimensional lumber, yes I agree that is entry-level work does not pay very well. Skilled carpenters who can do things like design and build a beautiful deck or flawless ornamental woodwork, built-in cabinets, or custom furniture, or solve a tricky framing issue in an expensive historic renovation earn much more.

I should add that all the people I know who are earning really good money in the trades put in some years, established a solid personal reputation in the area, and then started their own businesses.

Something I've been thinking about recently is how much of the economy is basically just trust-peddling. Jobs and entire companies that essentially only exist to vouch for the people who do the actual work (and take a healthy cut of the pay in the process). In some cases, this is probably a useful service. In others, it's clearly preying on the trust deficits that certain people, who are otherwise hard-working, upstanding members of society, suffer from. That's parallel to how big corporations have convinced us to trust them and their representatives over independent workers. Sadly, a lot of the attempts to disrupt this status quo just end up with a new middleman.

Agree. Carpenter is the lowest of the trade skills unless you are in a specific niche.

With respect to car servicing, I'm getting a deja vu feeling. Like smartphones have made it almost impossible to get a phone repaired by third party companies, car makers are making it very hard to get their cars serviced anywhere other than their dealerships where they can overcharge everything. With so much (unnecessary?) technology in the cars these days, it's easy for them to slap more conditions on the owners and lock in services for years.

I have always assumed that as service (or products) get worse consumers will start looking for alternatives. This does not seam to be happening. It might be the alternatives are run out of business and are doing something else now. Maybe consumers have a hard time finding alternatives, as in independent contractors do not show up at the top of the search or are not in the app. Maybe it just cost to much and pays to little to be an alternative. I do not see a lot of open doors.

Unless the megacorps everything consolidates into implement regulatory capture before that can happen.

A similar problem with "farmers." A farm worker, and a person who owns a farm, are two totally different economic situations. Both work hard, but the economic outcomes are quite different.

True, but in most cases, the owner started as a successful, lone plumber.

It’s a grind to run this kind of business. You’re sometimes dealing with life and death situations (you’re liable for someone’s electricity or heating 24/7). Talent is really hard to come by at a reasonable rate, especially reliable master electricians or plumbers and the trades people that work under them. And then it’s an extremely cost and labor intensive business involving large machinery, equipment, and vehicles - inside people’s homes. (Watched my dad scale one of these businesses for 30+ years, his work was stressful and unending)

Well for one when someone’s AC is out during the summer, heat is out during the winter, their water doesn’t work, or worse yet is flooding, then that person has a pretty poor negotiating position. Plumbers and HVAC can basically name their price for emergency work.

When this article first came out, I had a similar reaction, that it seems that regulations that just favor one company doesn't seem all that right.

But I remember in that thread a few had said that as part of this, SawStop will be forced to license their patent to competitors.

Maybe that'll drive up the cost of table saws, but to be honest, people like me (at best, a wannabe weekend woodworker, not a pro) have stayed away from Table saws because of a concern for safety, but things like Sawstop being more ubiquitous might result in people like me buying them, and expanding the market, possibly bringing prices down.

Sure, Sawstop does nothing to prevent the big issue with table saws (kickback) but still, having a riving knife + sawstop probably makes a huge difference in the overall safety of using a table saw, and that seems worth it.

But an average table saw used professionally probably cuts more than 700 USD of limbs during its lifetime. So that seems very warranted and no, we will just take care very well is not a real substitute. That is what at least 10% of our parents also thought while we were fathered.

Seems like a small price to pay to not dismember your employees with accidents.

You can always sell used equipment. There is a thriving market for that.

> No one can start a new plumbing/HVAC small business.

This isn't true at all, I know several people who have done it.

A lot of people in various countries just charge R-22 and R-12 systems with purified propane. (or regular propane too)

> Bad for the customer and the next gen of small business owners.

Another example of the previous generation pulling up the ladder once they've reached the top. Sell the business to Private Equity (who will squeeze both employees and customers), flip everyone the bird, and parachute off to Florida to suck down Pina Coladas for the rest of your life.

That seems a very cynical view, and it doesn't ring true to me. Anecdotally, I know of multiple business that were built up by one person, and then practically gifted to the employees. Some people really care about the business, customers, and employees.

I am happy for you, I really am. It is important to recognize that your experience may not be the experience of others right? While I too had no issue making a good salary through the various tech "crashes" I also know many many people who, for a wide variety of reasons, were not (and are not!) able to. There are a lot of people looking for work right now and their resume is kind of thin. Even with 'big names' in their CV like Google and Meta they are finding it hard to get interviews, much less call backs. Easily a dozen people I've known over the last 5 years have moved "to be with family" which was exactly code for "moving back in with the parents because they can't find gainful employment in an expensive place like the SF Bay Area." When they have asked for my advice I have shared that they are not their "job", they have agency and it is just as meaningful to be in the trades as it is to be in "tech." When I read this story about folks in the trades doing well I thought of those conversations and realized that not everyone has someone to tell them this. Fortunately for you the question hasn't come up, and that is great.

> fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance)

Every blue collar worker I know would counter that with "AI". i.e, "at least my industry doesn't shoot itself in the foot"

Anyone working remote is just talking nonsense on this subject.

I am related to a journeyman electrician and journeyman welder.

They would give it up to work remote in a second.

> competition from non-Union labor

Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits.

> broken body by 50

As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs.

> fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance)

This is true. But that's because software development is considered one large blob while trades is broken into HVAC, plumbing, electrical etc.

> working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family)

And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS.

Here is BLS data: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes471011.htm

Remember that BLS data leans on the lower side. BLS data for software also leans lower.

The reason they are millionaires by age 40 is because of the value of their houses. They bought early in life.

RE ".... If you had said yes, he covers his overhead..." Really - a overhead of several hundred dollars. Seems far fetched to me.

Completely irrelevant, considering my private residence is not a corporation and doesn't generate anywhere near the same revenue. Nor does the "bug" involve having several months of context on how an IT system operates.

Nor does it entail the same amount of liability in case something goes wrong. The failure mode for running a cable is...there's no cable connecting the 2 points.

> The other issue was in most jurisdictions homeowners get exceptions on licensure requirements for small jobs done in their own home, a pro has to cover this cost.

In my state, a plumbing license from the state costs $139 and lasts three years. That's not exactly onerous.

> Also I’m guessing you didn’t need to pull a permit for the low voltage line, very possible one was not required but not necessarily.

I'm yet to meet a contractor who doesn't pass permitting costs on to the customer.

I bought a new furnace and central air widget once, following a flood.

High-efficiency, dual stage furnace. There were cheaper options, but I didn't want the cheapest option.

I fixed it myself on two different occasions when I'd woken up to a super-cold house in the middle of the night, with both fixes relating to condensation building up where it shouldn't. (One of these was a manufacturing fault that was corrected by slightly shortening a rubber hose, and the other was an installation fault relating to the drain plumbing.)

Sure, I could have called the next day and maybe they'd have shown up eventually to fix it (maybe for "free"), but meh: I got it sorted, my fixes were cromulent and safe, and I had a warm house sooner instead of later. The installation manual contained enough theory of operation that it wasn't too bad for me to get a solid understanding of the concepts at play and to proceed with good confidence.

It was a scorching hot day in July before they showed up to charge the aircon so that it could be used, and they never did come back to set it up for two-stage operation despite promising to do so (so I paid extra for nothing).

4/10, at least they managed to graft on the new duct work with good transitions and reasonable tightness, and it was somehow reasonably well-balanced by default.

(I'd have configured the dual-stage bits myself, too, but I didn't have the right tools. It's been a rather long ago now, but IIRC I needed two digital thermometers to make sure the heat rise was correct and a manometer to correctly set the first-stage blower speed. Buying these tools would have been cheaper than paying for a service call with another company and was kind of a no-brainer to me, but another flood came by before I had the chance and forever changed our perspective on living in that location.)

There's also potential for planning / drawing / information tools. Augmented reality and stuff. Knowing and recording where the pipes and things are. Sourcing materials. Things like that.

Say what you want about Juicero but it was a beautifully over engineered machine.

How ludicrously blind are the heirs who collect dividends on Oracle stock to how good they have it?

I guess the workers doing the work and creating the wealth are lucky that Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt etc. illegally conspired to do wage-fixing so that they and the heirs they work for could get more of the wealth that others created.

The "psychological safety" crowd would need a ketamine drip by the end of day 1 as a plumber or hvac tech.

“Shit rolls downhill” is different in plumbing. Much more literal. You might be standing in some. You might have to stick your hand in some.

A lot of people just aren’t ready for that kind of work.

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