kleiba2
3 days ago
It's kind of strange that our existence has come down to working in an often unfulfilling job almost all of our waking time, and only finding fulfillment when you're out of a job.
vconnor
3 days ago
But I keep being told that all jobs suck and I'm being silly seeking fulfilment at the place I spend 70% of my waking hours.
EDIT: in fact these days, people make fun of me because I sought fulfilment in my career as a whole, and it’s my fault now that I’m depressed that it’s gone. I’ve come across this snarky comment more than a couple times on this forum.
Procrastes
2 days ago
Sorry for your loss. I don't even see the point of telling someone else where they should find fulfillment and what things they get to grieve. I'm guessing it's coming from folks reality hasn't caught up with yet.
Ancalagon
2 days ago
I struggle with this mentality as well. Just seems very unfair. I guess life isn't fair though, and maybe I should be more grateful for having this as a problem at all.
lazide
2 days ago
They’re gaslighting you - or just trying to convince you of what they need to believe to get by every day.
But often 6 of one, half a dozen of the other eh?
Notably, I’ve found the worse abuse happens if you still keep contact with folks like this after you find a way through. Talk about murderous jealousy!
jareklupinski
3 days ago
> Took a month off with my friends to feel a normal life again. Wild how you need to make the time to spend all the time that you need.
Anamanaguchi - "Buckwild"
zabriel_goss
3 days ago
Great group, great new direction for their music
sp1nningaway
3 days ago
ooh yeah I like this - I was only aware of their chiptune stuff. It's like they heard me wish for more bands that feel like Fang Island and made it happen.
ulfw
2 days ago
When has that ever been different?
This has been the miserable meaningless life for billions of people over the centuries
Few become an artist or painter or musician or whatever other thing they'd like to do but can't pay the bills
zoeysmithe
3 days ago
Isnt this the human condition and fundamental to our species and everything about us? People in the past weren't fulfilled doing back-breaking farm labor or out hunting all day hoping to catch a meal and knowing if you don't catch a meal a few days in a row you'll be too weak to catch anymore.
Ignoring art with patrons which is a tiny percent of all art made, people just did things at home quietly. They painted, drew, told stories, knit, crocheted, etc. Even patron-led artists just made what their patrons wanted, namely all the famous religious art, which I imagine felt like unfulfilling work anyway.
What we like, that is to say gets things like our dopamine flowing, tends to tie in well with the idea of not being compelled to do it. Someone writing copy at work to further enrich the capital owning class and to pay their bills is very different than someone writing short stories in the evening after work.
LargeKakapo
3 days ago
I would say that past “jobs” had more of a sense of accomplishment and agency. Personally I have never felt the same level of accomplishment from building things that directly improved the quality of my house, hunting with my father when it was required to help maintain ecological balance (too many deer or elk can actually be bad for an ecosystem), or directly contribute to my family/community in some way.
Now my days largely consist of navigating a “game of thrones” political landscape where work means less than it ever has. The sense of agency I once coveted now feels like a distant memory in some ways.
But to be fair this is probably something that people experienced in many different ages of humanity.
mcmcmc
3 days ago
> I have never felt the same level of accomplishment from building things that directly improved the quality of my house, hunting with my father when it was required to help maintain ecological balance (too many deer or elk can actually be bad for an ecosystem), or directly contribute to my family/community in some way.
This is because you were already meeting the base of your pyramid of needs. If you were building shelter because you had none, or hunting for subsistence, it’s considerably less enjoyable. Success means you live another day, failure means suffering. Self actualization is not a concern in those scenarios.
yoyohello13
3 days ago
You don't think spending the days with your family, hunting/growing food to feed that family would be fulfilling?
Obviously I don't know the answers, and there were obviously tons of day-to-day stressors that sucked, but I'm not so sure it's a given that people of the past did not find life fulfilling/meaningful.
logicchains
3 days ago
>You don't think spending the days with your family, hunting/growing food to feed that family would be fulfilling?
You think it'd be fulfilling when your children had around a 25% chance to die before the age of five?
zelphirkalt
2 days ago
It may sound harsh, but I think when such circumstances are reality, then people value their children and whatever else they have all the more while they have them/it.
10111001
3 days ago
>> It's kind of strange that our existence has come down to working in an often unfulfilling job almost all of our waking time, and only finding fulfillment when you're out of a job.
> Isnt this the human condition and fundamental to our species and everything about us? People in the past weren't fulfilled doing back-breaking farm labor or out hunting all day hoping to catch a meal and knowing if you don't catch a meal a few days in a row you'll be too weak to catch anymore.
No. I think if you go far enough into the past, the "jobs" were fun and enjoyable. As technology has progressed, many jobs have gotten farther and farther from what we were meant to do.
And AI isn't going to help. The best case scenario is it replaces work with purposeless entertainments and ennui. The more likely case it that it removes fulfilling work from human hands, leaving more space for unfulfilling work and poverty (because capitalist logic CANNOT be questioned, or you're a heretic who should be burned at the stake).
jryle70
3 days ago
> I think if you go far enough into the past, the "jobs" were fun and enjoyable
Which jobs specifically were fun and enjoyable and during which period? What is the evidence for that?
almost_usual
3 days ago
Maybe the jobs themselves were not enjoyable physically but the satisfaction of a day’s work was.
Many jobs also improved your fitness unless you were injured. Anything manual required more aerobic capacity and strength hence making you more fit.
Modern people are sleep deprived, weak, and aerobically deficient unless they spend time outside of work focusing on these things. We simply aren’t meant to sit around all day staring at a screen only to then sit and drive a car.
I’d argue modern life is much more comfortable but counterintuitively there is a constant discomfort that is chronic because of it.
Another way to think about this is that humans are meant to suffer everyday. If you are not forcing it through physical exertion it slowly leaks and if it is not exhausted it is constant.
dpark
3 days ago
> but the satisfaction of a day’s work was.
Rose colored glasses. “We won’t starve today” is not spiritually fulfilling. It’s survival.
People romanticize the past. Modern life is more comfortable specifically because everyone isn’t struggling to survive. (Obviously some still are.)
> Many jobs also improved your fitness unless you were injured.
That’s a real big “if”. You can go get a construction job right now. It will get you more fit. But it will probably also get you injured, especially over the long term.
user
2 days ago
crooked-v
2 days ago
Not to mention basic things like most of the population spending all of their free time having to craft and maintain their own clothes and furniture. Even many well-off, 'pampered' noble ladies in the Middle Ages spent every free moment spinning thread just to have enough to maintain household clothing.
user
2 days ago
10111001
3 days ago
> Which jobs specifically were fun and enjoyable and during which period? What is the evidence for that?
If you go back to hunter-gather times, I'm sure human physiology and motivation was much better suited to the kinds of jobs people had to do to survive. A lot of those things (hunting, gathering (e.g. mushrooms), gardening) are still things people do for fun now.
And it just makes logical sense to evolve to like to do the things you need to do to survive, and we had evolutionary-long timescales to do that (unlike things like code-reviewing LLM PRs).
arjie
3 days ago
This life is still available in the least civilized parts of the world. And unfortunately it comes with all the other problems of that time: your children will die, other tribes will occasionally kill you, and you need to stay on the move to escape enemies as well as seek food.
For my part, there is a huge price I’m willing to pay to be able to drink water out of my tap. I didn’t have this always and I really value it.
Vaushite
3 days ago
Maybe we could create a society with the best of both worlds?
Nah, couldn't be. You can't have running water without also having Elon Musk ruin Twitter, that's just a crazy fantasy.
arjie
3 days ago
I actually think that piped potable water at home is incompatible with a hunter-gatherer society. The infrastructure required to maintain this requires civilization with a stable non-mobile population centre.
Vaushite
2 days ago
But we can't have that without landlords raising the rent every six months, right? It's physically impossible.
dpark
3 days ago
> A lot of those things (hunting, gathering (e.g. mushrooms), gardening) are still things people do for fun now.
Yeah. Things people do as hobbies tend to be things they enjoy.
There are a lot of people out there right now spending their free time prompting LLMs to write more code, because they find it fun.
zoeysmithe
3 days ago
People look at Athens and Rome as some ideal. Labor there was mostly slaves. I don't think we fully appreciate how burdensome labor is and how that's the main motivation for people to offload it to the working class and make themselves the capital owning class. The American dream is being the boss or independently wealthy investor, not the best math teacher in your town.
derektank
3 days ago
Owning capital means off-loading my labor to capital investments i.e. machines. I don’t see how that is any less noble than seeking to be a math teacher. In fact, once I’ve accrued enough capital (save enough in my 401k and retire), I have some plans to go into teaching, just as my 7th grade science teacher did after he retired as a chemical engineer.
Vaushite
3 days ago
[dead]
TZubiri
2 days ago
nathan fielder has been making rounds recently
I felt he captured the golden shackles paradox of a cozy job here. if we are happy when fired, why don’t we quit?
bijowo1676
3 days ago
its a sign that we the people, are being severely exploited of our labor, and extractive institutions are sucking out everything out of our life.
next time when its uprising, there shall be no mercy whatsoever to the exploiter class
mcmcmc
3 days ago
Or is it a sign that life has an inherent cost that must be paid, and without the extractive institutions we’d spend our time scrabbling in the dirt attempting to grow our own food and sewing clothes together with dried grass and hides
cwmoore
2 days ago
Not convinced that is at all accurately what people did 200,000 years ago. Maybe what people today are convinced is the only alternative.
lazide
2 days ago
Well, one thing is for sure - world populations were dramatically lower back then, and if everyone tried to get back to that way of life, populations would likely quickly return to that level or lower.
viklove
2 days ago
> and without the extractive institutions we’d spend our time scrabbling in the dirt
The extractive institutions are pleased that you believe this.
arbitrary_name
3 days ago
there is a level of extractiveness that optimizes for overall wealth and prosperity.
and overly extractive systems are unstable over the long term.
are you confident that the current level of extraction is optimal, or sustainable?
if a large part of society decides that it's not optimal or sustainable, where would you stand? prevent change? or seek equitable and stable redistribution?
there are so many examples of the inherent unwillingness for the beneficiaries of extractive systems to resist change: see the laws imposed against serfs following the black death, or the shooting and violent suppression of striking union workers.
that cycle is beginning again: MAGA, widespread rioting in France, Italy and other places.
There is economic and political injustice. Systemic extraction is passing a stable equilibrium.
relax the grip on power and resources, or spend the blood and treasure it will cost to maintain it.
but don't bullshit anyone with this 'life has an inherent cost': that's trivially obvious to everyone.
we are well past the point of collectively paying that cost. it's just not fairly or reasonably distributed.
mcmcmc
3 days ago
> are you confident that the current level of extraction is optimal, or sustainable?
No, I just don’t think a class war is the answer. Equitable and stable resource distribution doesn’t necessitate retribution towards the current ruling class. An imperfect system beats no system at all.
bijowo1676
2 days ago
thats what a ruling class representative would say. But historically elite rotation and elite replacement happened routinely, often violently, because they extracted too much and lost touch with reality
mcmcmc
2 days ago
And you sound like an internet revolutionary who’s never encountered actual violence
bijowo1676
2 days ago
I have in fact encountered actual violence and was an active participant in two revolutions in one of the former USSR countries
falserum
2 days ago
How safe would you feel knowing that yesterday your neighbour killed 3 rich guys (and probably redistributed their stuff)?
Starting tradition of violence is easier than stoping it.
bijowo1676
2 days ago
rich people are innocent, my issue is with elites in the higher echelons of power (not necessarily wealth) who are corrupt and do not deserve the place they are in.
mindslight
2 days ago
Terrible. Which is exactly why people are trying to feed forward the message in discussion forums, before it actually turns violent. The problem is that the elites still aren't listening - rather they keep doubling down, as they've been quite successful at redirecting the energy to serve their own ends (eg the maggot movement for the latest incarnation, which is plainly obvious to everybody who isn't part of the maggot movement). But eventually that trick is going to fail, and the longer it has gone on, the harder the fall will be.
lazide
2 days ago
90% of the revolutions I’m aware of historically had clear negative effects for everyone afterwards.
What do you think our odds would be?
bijowo1676
2 days ago
One of them gave us independent America
lazide
a day ago
Run the numbers yet on the odds of getting that side of the die twice in a row?
bijowo1676
3 days ago
paid to whom? we can always kill our way out of unjust institutions, like it always happened in the past
lurk2
3 days ago
> we can always kill our way out of unjust institutions
lol
lmao
arbitrary_name
2 days ago
not sure if you're dismissing this but here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_Unite...
the reason we have weekends and no child labor is because workers died for it.
the state, the capitalists desire control, obedience and extraction. worker well-being is a low priority. workers advocating for better pay, safe working conditions, etc were routinely killed.
why is it laughable to say that there is a need to resist the injustice and push for better working conditions and rights for all?
user
2 days ago
card_zero
2 days ago
What's the connection to the weekend?
falserum
2 days ago
> were routinely killed
Does that happen now? How often? Are you or your friends at risk?
> why is it laughable to say that there is a need to resist the injustice
It is not, it is normal and necessary.
Thing that is laughable is push for violence expecting a good outcome.
bijowo1676
2 days ago
the stuff that elites do to people is also a violence, for example denying the lifesaving healthcare.
it is just for some reason being tolerant of abuse and exploitation is normalized, people are kept on minimum wage that hasnt changed for many decades.
elites get to enjoy the benefits of rich society only because the rest of the people tolerate it, but it doesn't have to be case
generic92034
2 days ago
The temporarily embarrassed billionaires think they would do well without laws compensating at least some of the power differential.
mcmcmc
3 days ago
Literally your body, it needs calories to burn. TINSTAFL
whynotminot
3 days ago
Every once in a while I feel this -- "yeah we're being exploited!"
And then I remember that basic living has always had a cost to be paid. I doubt the first hunter gatherers sat around wondering if they were fulfilled. They just had a more immediate sight-line from their labor to their actual living costs.
Most of us here work well-paid jobs that allow us to pay our requirements and still have disposable income to enjoy our lives. But work we must; homes aren't free and neither is food and much of the entertainment we enjoy.
I don't feel particularly exploited. I fear if you do whatever menacing thing you're insinuating you want to do to the "exploiter class" then my job will go away and much of my lifestyle with it. Not sure that's a good outcome for anyone, really.
taurath
3 days ago
Homes aren't free, but many people here have parents for which one of them worked a single job out of high school and were able to provide food and shelter, buy a home, take vacations, etc for an entire family and they weren't in the top 5% of income. They weren't expected to be always online and available out of work hours either.
A little bit of historical knowledge, a little bit of reading statistics of wealth inequality currently being about the same level as France before the French revolution. A little bit of looking around and doing the math for what a schoolteacher, or someone earning the median income has to do to survive right now, and maybe you can develop a bit of empathy.
We are at a historical apex of economic exploitation in the US, where we have a trillionaire preaching about the dangers of empathy while giving billions to politicians to ensure he is never taxed or his companies regulated. We are the sons and daughters with far less security, working harder for longer and for less than our parents. We have more gadgets but far less peace or leisure or time to take care of our neighbors.
falserum
2 days ago
> apex of economic exploitation
A bit self centered take.
Centuries(Millenia) of slaves would probably dispute that.
whynotminot
3 days ago
I think I have plenty of empathy. I just don't yearn for the guillotine for anyone, even our most wealthy, though I do support reforms to make them pay more, and allow the average working person to better afford life's necessities.
My point was that this all feels a bit rich on a forum with mostly well todo software engineers. You are not an exploited victim if you are making a high income working a white collar job in a comfortable glass tower, and the worst thing that ever happens to you is the occasional off-hour page.
bijowo1676
2 days ago
even if I make more than average, I still can feel solidarity with the working class and understand how they are exploited even more than white collar swe.
the revolutionaries who fought for the poor, were often from the upper class themselves, and all revolutions were basically one subset of elites fighting against the incumbent elites, mounting the accumulated discontent among the poors
soulofmischief
3 days ago
Do you realize how much money some people are making out of this racket while spending billions to convince you that socialized healthcare is the devil's work?
whynotminot
3 days ago
You're right, my full-throated endorsement of the US healthcare system went too far.
Wait a second-- I didn't do that at all.
eks391
2 days ago
I was confused too. For a second I thought I had accidentally skipped a paragraph from your comment.
soulofmischief
3 days ago
I didn't claim that you did, reread my comment.
Vaushite
3 days ago
[dead]
christkv
3 days ago
I mean is this not most of human existence through history though? A very small part of the world has the luxury of enjoying their job.
zkry
3 days ago
I think one could make the case that the human life lived during pre-agriculture was one which matched the evolution of our biological organism.
So this is kind of a pedantic point, but 95% of our history is us doing things exactly as we evolved to do. I don't doubt either that hunting must have been a very engaging activity, especially when done as a clan or tribe.
rglover
3 days ago
> I mean is this not most of human existence through history though?
That's not a good thing. It means we're failing to progress as a species. If we keep repeating history (with now, unfettered access to it), we're devolving, not evolving.
christkv
3 days ago
I don't know if someone is able to "enjoy" their work in general that is on top of a pyramide of people who probably don't enjoy their job.
anon7725
2 days ago
I would frame it like this: collectively, we have the resources to provide education, health care, housing and dignified work to all people. But on many if not all of those points we are regressing.
falserum
2 days ago
How come?
One way to look at glorious olden days is that man with one job could feed his whole family.
Other way to look at same times is that panama canal construction cost tens of thousands of lives and US had did not end systemic racism until 80’s.
I posit that no small part of prosperity of middle class was result of having less fortunate helping out due to lesser bargaining power (somewhere else in the country or the world)
It is good that people die less during construction. And it is ok to cost more.