I love this but I think you'll be surprised at your success rate. Everyone is struggling with this, not just you. Right on the heels of covid we were debating whether to have a NYE party or just go to a friend's house for a low key thing. We were paralyzed a bit feeling like, why we weren't invited to other parties ourselves? Won't everyone already be busy doing other stuff? In the end my wife took the leap and invited a ton of neighbors and friends. Guess what?? Almost everyone showed up! Which means all those people were going to be sitting at home feeling bad and wondering the same thing. You just need to believe and get over it, people want to hang out. We've all just gotten out of the habit.

Sure, but this only works as advice for people who you can talk to, such as me. I'm not trying to solve my loneliness, my own personal goal is to find ways to reach out to people who sit alone all day, and are dying from loneliness, and the only way to reach them is to catch them as they walk on the way to the grocery store, and hold up a sign that they can read. The question in my mind is, what next? So far, I've only been doing surveys[1], but I'm looking for the next step.

Piggybacking off your suggestion, I like the idea of holding up a sign advertising a free activity that anyone can join, located in a very public space, with zero committment, so they can both show up and walk away at the drop of a hat. Whether it's an ad hoc organized chess tournament, or D&D game, or "one word story" or literally anything. That will have to wait until nicer weather, though, to avoid having to rent a place.

[1] https://chicagosignguy.com

Unfortunately a lot of these require either an existing network or high stakes interaction (sending invites, accepting invites etc). They're good advise, but can be hard to execute on for most people.

If we want to solve this at the society or community level, there needs to be more opportunities for low stakes interaction. Places that people can passively gather around a communal activity. I'm reminded of the ladies dancing together in public squares / parks in China. They're usually a group, but mostly anyone can join in. You can just follow along and interact as much as you'd like. If you want to leave, leave. If you want to stay and chat, stay and chat.

Downtown San Mateo for example has the potential for this. It's already a closed off street where people go. But today there aren't group activities there that encourages passive interaction, people are still in silos. Perhaps if there were some games / puzzles, chalk boards, townhall type of table setup, that'll encourage passive interaction.

"Be the organizer" assumes a certain baseline of energy, confidence, and emotional resilience. For people who are already lonely, depressed, neurodivergent, burned out, or socially anxious, that constant reaching out + rejection tax can be genuinely exhausting, not just uncomfortable

> You have to be the one who creates things to do.

> You have to do it on a regular cadence.

I've posted about this before, but my wife and I sort of accidentally started a trivia team that's been going strong for like four years. Nearly every single week for four years, we get together with some subset of about 15 people. Most the regulars are there most days.

I also started cold plunging and have been doing it with the same regularity as trivia -- nearly every single week. It's a much smaller group, but it is absolutely part of our routine. Rain or shine.

Both these things have given several of us some really great friend time that makes that loneliness fade away.

Personal solutions to systemic problems are not solutions. Yours is great advice for the few people able to take it to heart, find the motivation, and succeed, but you cannot solve societal problems at any kind of scale this way.

Agree but the flaking culture is too normalized right now, at least in the west. Nothing is more demotivating than majority of people just not coming and doing it in such a non-chalant manner. It's really not fun to put all that work and people don't take the invitation seriously to the point where they jusut ghost the event.

I've been trying to do this. One thing I've observed is trying to arrange people to play board games is quite difficult because you can't predict how many people will show up. People get sick, misread the times, etc. And a lot of games are very sensitive to player count, so having 2 people too few or too many has the ability to make the game somewhat unplayable or risk people sitting out watching.

Easier to just host a party or meetup where you can over invite and if some people don't show up it's no issue.

I've had success with this! It required a little bit of an existing network. I always wanted to be in a band but never could, I was never invited. But I went to an open mic for a couple months, and just decided to .. start one. Invited people over to jam sometimes. Turned into a regular event, then turned into a band.

I've repeated this a couple times. Yeah, usually I have to do the bulk of the inviting and organizing. And yeah, it's uncomfortable being the "leader". But I know everyone enjoyed the time together. Those that didn't just never came and that's fine too.

You really can just do things!

You don't have to do it all yourself.

Join an organization. For example every city has Toastmasters, most have several. Easy to find, and it is an excellent place to meet people. And you'll learn how to convert social anxiety into social adrenaline.

Do you have a faith? Actually go to church instead of just believing. Are you non-religious? Several strands of Buddhism can be followed as philosophy and practice without adopting any mystical beliefs. Vipassanā (also called Insight) and Zen are a couple of examples.

And how do you turn random people that you met into life-long friends? You can reduce the time investment by a lot. If you call someone on a spaced repetition schedule, you can make them internalize that the door is always open. Without requiring a large commitment on either side. And a spaced repetition schedule is easy to achieve - just think Fibonacci. I'll call you back in 3 days. Then 5. Then 8 (round down to a week). And so on. It feels like a lot of calls at the start. But it slows down fast. Over a lifetime, it is only around 20 calls.

Play around with it. If it was someone you met and hung out with on a cruise, maybe start at a week for that first call. Either way, you're reinforcing the idea that we like to talk, and the door is always open.

You can use a similar idea to keep people who move on from your workplace in your life. People always mean to stay in contact. Then don't. But with structured reinforcement, you can actually make it work.

Wow. This is so true. My social life has improved hugely in the last couple of years and it's almost all because of this.

I host board game days.

I organise a pub trivia team.

I organise singalong nights.

I host occasional parties. Soup nights. Zucchini parties.

I set up a lot of group chats and keep them alive.

I organise to visit my family.

For a lot of events, I get a 5-10% attendance rate compared to the number of people I invite. People are busy. It just means I need to keep expanding the circles of people to invite. If people don't want to come it eventually becomes clear and I quietly remove them from the lists. But mostly I hear the opposite - they really want to keep being invited, even if they don't make it often.

So what you're saying is you basically have to give. This is what I find real life is like. Unless I'm giving something, like a ride to some interesting place, people are not interested in me at all. They just want to get something from me, that's it.

> You have to be the one who reaches out.

But that's the whole issue. Who am I supposed to reach out to? The 2 people at work I occasionally talk to because they happen to sit in the same office as me?

>Accept that most people flake

This is a thing that's always surprised me when I've been in the US. How common it is to enthusiastically arrange to do some activity together, get a meal, play a game, have a drink, whatever, and then for people to just call it off at the last minute. It seems much more socially acceptable to do so than either the UK (where I live) or France (where I have lived and still visit regularly).

The loneliness thing seems common across Europe too though so I'm not suggesting this is the root of the problem. But I do think that whilst this is a global problem the solutions are likely to be local, working with and leveraging different cultural norms.

On the other hand, you also can't have an attachment to what you want the outcomes to be. You can't expect the same in return from everyone else. Until you let go of this transactional mindset, you will grow resentful when a lot of them start canceling on you, and believe me, at your 30s and above, with all these things that compete for our time, they will.

> Note: you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake. It may always feel painful (and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive). You have to feel your feelings, accept it, and move on.

Most importantly, you have to hear “I can’t” and be really cool about it or folks will half commit out of guilt and bail. They probably have a good reason, especially if they have kids. Or maybe they’re just exhausted! That is valid - you will sometimes feel that way too, and you should clearly (but politely) communicate it when you need.

If you consistently say yes/no and adhere to it, people will return the favor and you’ll all be better for it. My social life vastly improved post COVID when I adhered to that. My friends and I are incredibly honest so now folks rarely bail (always for good reason) and we all can reliably plan to hang out without guessing if someone actually means “no” when they say maybe and all that nonsense.

I think I saw this quote somewhere else on HN about a post lamenting how difficult it can be to make new friends after age 30 or so:

Finding new friends as an adult can be exceedingly difficult, but becoming a friend to someone is surprisingly easy.

Lots of people (and if I'm being honest I'm one of them, so no judgement) just sort of expect friendships to come to them. But if you actually do the hard (and somewhat socially risky) work of inviting people to do things, offering to help unsolicited, organizing gatherings, etc. new friendships are much easier to come by.

I was writing a reply, but then saw your comment. It's basically what I was going to say as well.

I moved to a new area. Searched for chess clubs. Couldn't find one.

So I created one. We now have ~10 people showing up to each meeting. From young kids, to older retired people. Facebook is a blessing for finding groups of people who are looking for things to do. It's really that simple. Just do things.

Would say that changing mind i.e. cancelling is probably also parts of our nerds traits, I feel that the closer to the time I starts getting cold feet for no reason. The irony is that probably that the most time-consuming part is probably scrolling social media.

I've been working on a solution that makes it easier to meet people. When you're out for coffee or something and feeling social, you can signal you're available. Since you and your potential friend already nearby, it should reduce cancellations. I built an app for this, check it out if you have time: https://tatapp.astekita.com/

That is excellent advice. How do we amplify this advice to more areas? I practice that by being intentional about my work: I think about all the opportunities I have to meet people and how I can give back to them. I call that slow multicast. I have a startup in my incubator that I call .find . I am a looking for a founder. I love how you explained it simply, clearly. I would love to have you in my "combat loneliness" team My ingredients: - walk the walk - Multicast - Seed - Tie to your bucket lists as growth engine (virtuous cycle)

I would love to further the combat, please reach out to me Joseph de Castelnau on IG and X.

I agree with this so much! I've found that going to people and initiating is the only thing you can do. How people respond varies a lot and you have to be resilient to rejection.

There was a post[1] sometime back about just having coffee in the afternoon outisdes and how that brought in more people.

I also write about it here [2].

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43473618

[2]: https://blog.papermatch.me/html/Wheres_the_human_touch

> Note: you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake. It may always feel painful (and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive). You have to feel your feelings, accept it, and move on.

This is an incredibly good point. Like all things of this nature, I liken the process to panning for gold. In truth, you may not want to invest in people that aren't all that invested in you or the activity at hand. It stinks that the success rate is lower than chance, but it's probably better this way.

Yeah, I realized recently you have to be more intentional for things you want. You don’t necessarily have to host it but you need to reach out and find things going on where there are people.

> You have to be the one who creates things to do.

Problem is it gets fucking exhausting to organize and reach out after a while. Especially with DnD.

Great point and many of the responses are very interesting too.

I wonder whether part of this is a habitualization of intolerance for just being with oneself - to be ok with feeling bored, for instance. Most suggestions are about "doing". Just being with oneself without a doing is painful for many from what I've seen.

This! I agree 100%. How do you deal with the feeling of tiredness that comes after doing this for a while? You know, when you reach a ratio of 20:1 invitations sent versus received? When you inevitably start wanting reciprocity, or for someone else to take the initiative for a change?

people are so fucked up by consumerism that they expect to be just consumers also in their sociality... like they expect that social relations to be like commodities.

in consumer societies people flee real freedom's anxiety by conforming to market ways, treating connections as consumption not production. lasting bonds need effort patience vulnerability, all anti-consumer virtues.

Fromm said that in market societies love and relations follow the commodity and labor market exchange pattern. they want low-effort replaceable humans. So they became low-effort replaceable humans.

I'm just going to be a "me too" but I think you nailed it. It's just hard for some people to do. It's sort of like losing weight: the formula is easy, but the doing is hard.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46453114

I would like to mention this link from HN

While you are not wrong, I think in many cases this advice is as effective as telling someone to "just stop being depressed".

I think this advice works in practice, but it misidentifies the problem. It treats friendship as something that has always required deliberate effort and personal initiative, when historically the opposite was true. For most of human history, social bonds were not maintained through planning or follow-ups. They emerged automatically from structure. Humans evolved in small, stable groups with repeated contact, shared labor, shared risk, and strong norms against withdrawal. You did not “reach out” to maintain relationships; you saw the same people every day because survival required it. Social connection was not a lifestyle choice but an unavoidable condition of being alive.

Anthropologically, this matters because our social brains are tuned for inevitability, not optionality. We are adapted to environments where interaction is frequent, predictable, and constrained. Dunbar-scale groups, reciprocal dependence, and ritualized coordination did the work that calendars and reminders now attempt to approximate. When those constraints exist, friendship is an emergent property. When they are removed, it becomes a management problem.

Modern life systematically dismantled those constraints. Mobility replaced permanence, private space replaced shared space, and passive entertainment replaced collective activity. Flaking became costless. Absence became invisible. Optionality exploded. None of this happened accidentally; it was a deliberate trade in exchange for autonomy, flexibility, and economic efficiency. But the biological machinery did not change with the environment. We are still running hunter-gatherer social hardware in a world optimized for individual choice.

Seen through that lens, the advice to host, schedule, follow up, and accept rejection is not wrong, but it is compensatory. It asks individuals to manually recreate what used to be automatic. One person becomes the forcing function that the environment no longer provides. That can work, but it is fragile, asymmetric, and emotionally expensive, especially for people who are sensitive to imbalance or rejection. Framing this as “how friendship works” subtly turns a systems failure into a personal obligation.

If the goal is to reduce effort rather than heroically absorb it, the real lever is not better social skills or more persistence but reintroducing constraint. Social bonds form most reliably where interaction is inevitable rather than intentional: fixed schedules, shared physical spaces, repeated exposure to the same people, and light obligations that make absence noticeable. This is why gyms, religious communities, teams, classes, and other ritualized environments still produce friendships with relatively little effort. They partially restore the conditions under which our social instincts evolved.

There is no free lunch here. Effortless social life was never free; it was paid for with reduced choice, reduced mobility, and reduced privacy. You cannot fully recover that world without giving something up. But you can recover much of its function by selectively sacrificing optionality in exchange for repetition and proximity. The modern workaround of turning individuals into social project managers is effective but unnatural. Rebuilding environments that do the work for us is closer to our biology, closer to our history, and probably the only scalable way to make social connection feel less like a second job again.

> you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake

This is true, but as long as the success rate is >= 1 other person, it's okay.

I started a running club for my apartment block (about 200 flats with maybe 300 residents). I posted flyers out once advertising it as a friendly social running club. Of the 300, the group has about 15 people, of which 5 are regulars (every other week at least), and just 2 of us are super regulars (multiple times per week). It's a terrible success rate, but those are 4/5 good friends.

At first it bothered me how flaky people were. Some people joined the group but have yet to show up in person. And some joined the group and are yet to even converse in the group chat, but hey, they'll come along when they're ready.

Not only do you need to create the things to do, but you need to pick up the phone and CALL them (on the telephone! not voicemail, not whatsapp/facetime) and have a conversation with them. Sometime in 2006-2008 we started sending people online invites to parties and the habit of calling people died out.

If you call 12 people, on the telephone, and invite them for a dinner party next weekend, and 12 people say yes, I give 90% odds that 12 people show up to your party

It's weird that no one else plans things?

I always feel like I organize things to much. It's one sided

> and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive As opposed to non-nerds of course, who are famously fine with rejection.

In all seriousness, there is no evidence to suggest that being a nerd (read: having nerdy interests) is related to being more emotionally stunted than the average person. You're just perpetuating a bad stereotype.

Finland happiness study revealed the concept of "go first".

Peer to peer networks' rules apply to real life - give more than take and be happy.

D&D is extraordinarily difficult to bootstrap. You ened 4-8 people to commit to being at a certain place at a certain time. If you play online instead, just the coordinated time alone is a monumental effort.

There are a ton of reasons for this. Work, school, coordinating plans with their partner, other commitments , other friends and family and honestly people just being flaky. For D&D this can be particularly bad if you're missing a couple of people who just flaked. Other activities don't have that problem and it can still be an issue.

There was a time when going out and doing things was necessary for social interaction. That's not true anymore. Online is sorta social. It's kinda close enough to scratch that itch for many, particularly because it has none of the coordination and/or travel issues.

But also people just have less free time. Because we have to work so much.

Hobbies in general have becom ea luxury. By that I mean you're spending your time doing something that doesn't earn an income. That's good but an increasingly large number of people don't have that as an option, hence "luxury".

Put another way, the ultimate goal of capitalism is to have all the worker bees constantly creating wealth so Bezos can have $210 billion instead of $215 billion.

The advice “create things to do” is a huge leap for someone with atrophied social skills. Even just attending an event is a terrifying prospect to someone with debilitating social anxiety or low self-esteem.

Instead, a better goal is to become comfortable talking to strangers. If you could do that confidently, anything is possible socially.

Here’s a framework to do that:

1. Adopt a useful attitude.

Before any social situation, consciously choose an attitude that serves you socially: calm, relaxed, enthusiastic, curious, friendly, or simply open. This replaces the useless defaults that keep you stuck: reticent, scared, angry, confused.

Assume people will like you.

2. Set an intention for the interaction.

Decide on one small goal for the interaction. Not “be charming” or “make friends,” rather something achievable.

Example intentions, ranked from easier to more difficult: - To appear friendly (smile, make eye contact) - To greet people - To find out what’s going on around town - To enjoy talking with people - To meet people - To make someone smile - To enjoy getting to know someone - To make someone laugh - To get someone’s contact info - To flirt - To talk to the most attractive person in the room

3. Find comfort in your body.

When you arrive at a social space, take a deep breath. Know that you’re safe inhabiting your body, no matter what anyone thinks of you or says.

4. Set your expectations.

Paralyzed about what to say? Set the bar low. Say your words and expect nothing in return. Confidence in delivering your words will grow. Confidence in social acceptance will follow as you see people respond neutrally and positively.

You might be talking to a grumpy person. It’s okay if you don’t get the response you’d hoped for.

5. Start impossibly small.

If you’re severely out of practice (nervous, anxious, uncertain), set out to initiate an interaction with someone where you accomplish just one objective. Then stop and celebrate that win. Don’t try to combine all of these into one interaction—you will get overwhelmed. Then initiate another interaction on another day and accomplish another objective.

Objective: Say “hello.” If you tend to be quiet, focus on being heard. Find confidence in your voice.

Objective: Say the first thing that comes to mind and see what happens.

Objective: Notice something about a person and comment on it. “Nice shoes!”

Objective: Notice something about the environment and comment on it to someone nearby.

Objective: Ask someone a question for information.

Objective: Ask someone their opinion.

Objective: Ask a question that invites an emotional response rather than a factual one. “What do you love about living here?”

Objective: Join a circle of people in conversation.

6. Make it a habit.

Start today: say one thing to one person. Repeat tomorrow. Then the next day. Within about a week, it becomes second nature. The scariness diminishes. Soon, you’ll actually want to talk to people.

When you learn to talk to strangers, you’re more than halfway to making a friend. Friends will help keep you out of loneliness.

this!

when i am in this mood my mantra becomes, "be an instigator".

> nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive

This "hypersensitivity" and even paralytic fear must be understood as a narcissistic trait (people fail to recognize this, in part, because they have a limited view of what is narcissistic, as something necessarily bombastic, and of course, narcissism tends toward a blindness of one's own narcissism). By recognizing this to be the case, the subtle temptation toward self-pity, or normalization or even valorization of such qualities, can be prevented. Narcissistic traits are antisocial, and so it stands to reason that narcissistic traits impede one's ability to form healthy relationships.

> You are struggling against many aspects of the way we in the developed world/nerd world live.

The liberal consumerist hyperindividualism of our age is an anthropological position that conceives of human beings as atomized units that merely enter into transactional relations with other human beings. "Society" is merely something contractual and utilitarian, and in practice has the flavor of mutual exploitation. In effect, society is reduced to something like a marketplace. This is, of course, totally bogus and destructive. We are intrinsically social animals. Society is a common good, a superordinate good, toward which we have certain general, non-consensual moral obligations and something we need to flourish as human beings.

Because of the bad anthropology the contemporary world is rooted in, we often feel its practices and aims to be meaningless and hollow. We also find ourselves oscillating between the twin errors of collectivism and hyperindividualism. These two extremes are forced onto us by the paradigm of this false anthropology. One looming danger today is that, as the liberal order collapses, we do not know what will replace it. The loudest contenders are undesirable.

> more time-consuming relationship with our families than our parents ever did

That depends. On the one hand, family life was much more robust and lively in many ways than it is today. Parents weren't as careerist then in general. Families were larger, so the abundance of siblings meant you didn't have a lonely childhood at home, and a large pool of potential friends outside of it. Older siblings would assist with younger siblings, and children would participate in domestic duties, so in that sense, parents would not need to be as involved in all aspects of the daily life of the children and the functioning of the household. And in the past, families tended to concentrate more in the local area, so grandparents were typically near children and grandchildren and so on. In other words, a robust family life enables a robust society in general. Social life becomes "thicker" and mutually reinforcing.

The time-consuming element you have in mind is therefore related. All of the responsibility for taking care of aging parents falls on the few children they have or who live nearby. Without siblings or friends, parents step in socially more than they would with their children (or else consign them to the cesspool of social media and internet garbage). There are also cultural factors: parents can become overinvolved or inappropriately involved in some respects, like the proverbial helicopter parent, which itself can be spurred by the collapse of society around them, if not careerist ambitions for one's children.

Which brings us to your main point...

> You have to be the one who creates things to do.

Today, communities often need to be more intentional. If there isn't a community around you'd like to join, you have to be the one who initiates it. It's not guaranteed to function or last, but what's the alternative?

This doesn't "solve" the so-called loneliness epidemic, of course. The proposal here is more modest, namely, if you want people in your life, you have to look for them. Every community or social group needs a reason for its existence. The weakest form is rooted in utility, the second weakest in fun and pleasure. They are transient. The best and more robust kind are to be found in the common pursuit of virtue. In these and through these, we could begin to witness the birth of a healthy society.

I don't see how the control and enforcement of "social media age verification" solves for the "people who are unable to stop... under their own willpower." My grandparents are more addicted to the phone than I am. Taking the superlative stance of social media being the "most advanced behavior modification schemes ever devised by humans" wouldn't the correct regulation be some sort of threshold of consumption (screen time limits per application), or rehabilitation for those that have crossed a line into psychological addiction? I imagine the easiest, assuming you see "the algorithm" as the problem, would be to ban selective algorithms and force timeline-based feeds or the like.

The problems occurred when online interaction got mediated by corporations with profit motives that use dark patterns, automated systems and algorithms to extract more revenue from its users.

Most of my real-life friends are people I've first met online, or as a consequence of having met someone online. Those online sites have mostly been run by enthusiasts, driven by some hobby, fandom or other interest. A couple of them have risen highly in popularity and attracted many thousands of users, and also served news and allowed vendors to use their site for interactions with customers.

Those communities that have thrived have made sure that discourse does not get poisoned. They have had active, strong but fair moderators. Many have strict rules against discussing politics or religion, but people have a need to discuss that too sometimes — and being identifiable e.g. between subreddits could put people off from doing that.

Also, where do you draw the line to what is an online community and what is "social media"? I've avoided Facebook and X-twitter, but I know genuine communities exist there too.

This rings untrue. Hacker News is about the most "social media" type of site I use, and I still feel the shift towards isolation others described.

Also, the naive view is to place all the blame for a broad cultural shift on Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/TikTok and pretend people can't choose to limit their use. Someone pretending there can only be a single factor to blame for a problem is usually a biased person with a bone to pick. The rhetoric supports your cause, but the US is not going to ban social media for adults any time soon and telling people they're helpless until the government bans social media is unhelpful at best.

Shouldn't we rather just regulate social media instead of forcefully de-anonymizing online communication and restricting access to online community?

I agree this is a collective action problem.

But making children (and adults, because how else can you tell without checking) give their biometrics to companies (and by extension the highest bidder (palantir, paramilitaries, and police)) that helped create and then exacerbated this crisis is like asking the drug dealer association to help folks quit by giving them new exotic chemicals heretofore undiscovered.

You 'win' the war on pollution by making companies actually pay for their externalities, repeat offenders cease to exist, their assets seized, and their executives are jailed, rather than just 'paying fines' for the thousand of corpses they leave in their wake.

Likewise, if social media companies produce informational or social 'pollution' so defined, we can do likewise and insist they defray the cost of the damage. If they are no longer profitable when the cost is not paid by society, then they'll have to learn to innovate again.

the “real solution” wouldn’t involve isolating children in already marginalised minorities, making them lose one of the only sources of community they feel safe in.

Giving over the agency to corporations is no beneficial over all.

Taking something away by force is not the way to encourage someone to do something else. This is carrot or stick mentality. The city added benches and chairs in all the parks to improve the quality of our third spaces, as an example of social infrastructure.

The inability of your friends to have non-political conversations can be a big part of isolation. I follow the “no politics, no religion” rule when I go out and it’s served me well.

You can have political/religious conversations with people who disagree but often it feels like walking in a mine field.

I'm the same age as you and most of my friends are remote, on the other side of the country or in different countries, etc, and I maintain contact all the time, for decades. I still have friends from elementary school, middle school, high school, university, and from most of my jobs going back 30 years. I can pick up my phone and call some of my coworkers from 25 years ago without hesitation and we will go for lunch at the next opportune time.

> most of my friends have dropped off or gone crazy

If you find yourself to be the one who is isolated, then I think you need to look inward. My best friends and I share completely polar opposite politics. We have known each other for almost 50 years now. We have had yelling matches over politics, especially during the Pandemic. We have now stopped talking... about politics. We still chat every single day throughout the day. I laugh heartily at least once a day over some extremely offensive joke that one of us sends, usually at each other's expense. But we never, ever talk about politics anymore and we are happier for it.

Maybe you need to rekindle those friendships and see if you can avoid politics. If you can't then I think it's more on you than them and you should reflect on that.

[flagged]

You're probably far ahead of me on this topic, but as an immigrant to Germany for some years now, living with a German partner, I'm convinced that Germany (at least, Bavaria) has its own specific cultural norms that makes socialising far more challenging than is my experience in other countries. I can't explain why, but I observe a more insular (i.e. family- and existing-close-circle-focused) attitude, and also a significant level of difficulty/inflexibility regarding scheduling social events.

For example, I often find it quicker and easier to agree the timing and details of weekend trips to meet up with friends in other countries, involving one or both sides traveling significantly to meet, than arranging a single evening to meet for dinner with a single existing German colleague or friend living nearby. Of course these people have lives and arrangements I must fit in with, but I'm convinced that the examples I'm thinking of do not have such overwhelmingly busy schedules as to explain the observation.

This might sound like a trivial observation, but I suspect that the overall effect, if you scale even a small fraction of this behaviour across a whole country, could be huge.

I'm extremely skeptical of financial solutions to this problem.

One of the most fundamental reasons for my own personal loneliness is that, in many of the connections I've made, they simply do not feel sincere, genuine, authentic, and simply because the other person clearly has a different motivation for "caring" about me than actually caring about me.

For example, the churchgoers I've met have always felt like they were only spending time with me to get me to become a member of their church. They were eager to throw money at me if I lost my job, or offer to help me move, but never wanted to get coffee outside church hours.

Therapists are another example, obviously financially incentivized to talk to me. There are definitely some who care simply because it's part of their personality, but that still says nothing about me and any connection they have with me.

And I shared a story elsewhere here of a priest who I had literally just met minutes before, and who actually went in for a hug the moment I mentioned having a hard time with something, as if this random hug from a complete stranger meant anything other than him following a virtue signalling script.

No, I am convinced that the solution must be free, it must be volunteers doing it without anyone knowing about it, without the belief that they're earning brownie points from God or gaining a potential member of some organization, and without getting paid or rewarded for it, except for the reward of having a new and worthwhile friendship with the lonely person.

This seems like an important insight. The other top comments are about what individuals can do to improve their situation. That's absolutely valuable advice, but is at its core a solution of the form of "this wouldn't be a problem if only everyone would just...", which is never actually a solution.

What you're describing here is an answer to the question "why aren't people 'just' being more social".

Certainly too, social media has played a big hand in this, but for many people, myself included, these activities feel high-risk, with a low probability of reward. Regardless of the correctness of the perceptions that have led to this feeling, the feeling exists and it is becoming more and more pervasive across society. And, like most problems centered on feelings, "have you tried not feeling that way?" is rarely, though not never, effective.

I actually have an interesting story here. For a couple of years I found a third place for myself in VRChat. It was great, I made friends, I spent time socializing for its own sake on a daily basis for hours. But something changed over time. I'll hop on now, look at each person on my friends list, look at private and public rooms I can join, and instead of being able to just jump in, the same feelings of "this is high-risk" that hold me back IRL result in me closing the game after ten minutes or so.

So what exactly happened? My theory is that, being a completely new "kind" of space, my brain didn't see the choices as "social" in the same way as IRL. But over time it relearned the same lessons in this new context, driving me away from social interaction.

Why? What are the unconscious lessons I learned, and why did I learn them? What have I unintentionally internalized that turned an enjoyable, effective, low-stakes virtual third place into an emotional slog that incentivizes self isolation in the same way IRL socializing does?

Isn't it cheating if you have a cofounder in a loneliness startup? :)

It's excellent that you're working on loneliness! Somehow. What is it your startup actually does?

as a fellow german, is there somewhere we can find your company / product? i'd be interested in checking that out.

Do you have any references on loneliness interventions? Very interested.

[flagged]

I'd like to assert here that "community" can exist online as well. It's not just people staying indoors; it's about how they interact with what others write and whether they even care that another person wrote it. It's about things like coming to recognize usernames and build trust.

Of course, LLM generated content threatens that, so things have gotten worse.

> Building American cities around the whims of car manufacturers is, to my mind, as bad as any social media.

I think your framing of history is wrong. Trains, and later cars were extraordinarily convenient compared to former methods of travel. We adapted infrastructure to maximize this convenience, not to profit companies. In fact, it's the other way around: companies profited off the demand for convenience they provided.

The same could be said for social media. People wanted small, low-risk interactions with other people over the internet. Companies capitalized on this, and realized that increasing dopamine is the only way to increase capital.

> it requires organized political and social movements, then the legislation and re-allocation of public funds for the public's good

I would reverse the first two, or maybe even remove the "political movement" part. Why is it necessary? It always starts with (a) one person taking concrete action on some principle, then (b) one small group of people joining that person on principle, then (c) this turning into a movement on principle and snowballing momentum until the change is exponentially impactful on society. Later, when the public agrees it's a good thing, they may choose to publicly fund it. Only a-c are necessary for it to make a meaningful impact.

Personally, I liked Maya from Sesame for empathic conversations: https://app.sesame.com

However, I am not sure this is actually a solution to the (root) problem.

> the mass social media is trending sharply towards being a 100% troll mill

I agree. It's one reason I still come to HN and it's one of the few places I bother to comment (and the only place with more than a few dozen users). The moderation and community culture against trolling makes it a generally positive experience. I do still need breaks sometimes, though, for a few months at a time.

I'd love an online community where everyone was having discussions only in good faith. Zero trolling. I can dream.

I would also argue that even people who I like a lot and have known for many years can be very different "people" online than in person. It's sometimes shocking the dichotomy. I try to remind myself and others to ignore some of the online weirdness and focus on the in person interaction.

And volunteering works not just because it's "good", but because it gives you a role where your presence matters immediately

> Stop trolling ourselves

This is so tough, though, because the things happening in the world really, genuinely, do matter and its very hard to realize that our passive emotional reaction to them is not meaningful, probably actively bad for us. If I could snap my fingers and do one thing, I'd obliterate social media from the face of the earth.

> The things people say on social media do not reflect genuine beliefs of any significant percentage of the population

The social media trolls are running the government. This can't be a serious take in 2026.

As far as the troll mills go everyone forgot the adage from the olden days "don't feed the trolls".

Now everyone feeds the trolls.

Whatever else you think of Bluesky, it's a place where trolling and doomerism are rejected. The nuclear block (and a culture of block, don't engage) does wonders for denying actual trolls an audience, and secondarily for permitting people to do the virtual equivalent of walking away from someone who's behaving badly. In particular, doomerism about Trump is minimized there the same way.

From my perspective and the people I'm trying to reach out to, they basically need someone to help them see that they are cared about and valued, someone to ask them how their day is over coffee with no strings attached, and not because they're trying to earn brownie points with God, or trying to increase their internal virtue signal, but because they genuinely care about the other person.

Your #1 is great for after this connection with another human being has been made. Your #2 is why it hasn't been made yet. I'm trying to find solutions for the middle, to solve #2 for random strangers on the street, in order to get them both able and motivated to do #1. Those strangers are people who sit alone at home, all day, every day, and you only see them on the way to the grocery store and back.

I'm glad you got the help you needed to bootstrap your ability to find and form meaningful relationships. If only there was a reproducible way to help countless others get past that initial hump, and begin the same process. I believe it must be possible somehow.

I've been trying my surveys in Chicago as a first step. I need to do more, though, somehow. Now that I'm known as the "sign guy" by many people who pass me by every time I'm there, I think I can get more creative than surveys, and try signs that are more interactive to reach out to those people. I've been brainstorming throughout this thread on a few different ways to do this. If you or anyone has concrete ideas, I'd be very glad to hear it.

Anecdotally, I've had a lot of people in my life recede after getting pets. They're an excellent excuse to say no to things that you might otherwise do, because you need to get home and take care of the pet or you can't find a sitter to go on a trip etc.

Not generalizing to all people, but I think for some a pet can reinforce anti-social tendencies.

I have an older neighbor who just absolutely loves dogs. He sits by his window all day long and runs outside every time a dog comes by to give them a treat. On hot days he has bowls filled with ice water and a kiddy pool for them to splash in.

I lived here almost 6 years before doing much more than a smile and nod to him, but my next door neighbors with a dog befriended him almost as soon as they moved in.

It wasn't until our son started walking and would stop and try and play in the dog water that we ever really talked to him.

> You're not a rando taking a walk for mysterious and possible nefarious purposes

Good god, where do you live where people think like that?

But that's like befriending others through the kids. Those usually are very shallow relationships. If they suddenly stop seeing you they wouldn't even check if you are OK or what happened. I guess it's better than nothing but that's not for me.

> You're not a rando taking a walk for mysterious and possible nefarious purposes

It's a little counterintuitive, but I find walking around with a camera has this effect too (depending on where you're pointing it of course).

> get a dog

I briefly considered it but I don't want to be the asshole. I would put any pet in exact position I am myself trying to avoid - stuck in home, alone for long periods of time.

I know a lot of very old people who do charity work, and will continue until they fall over or until they just physically can't anymore.

Younger people are at school, a very social institution. After school they do sports or hobby, usually a very social activity. When it's their birthday, a party is organized.

When you are older, you have plenty of social interaction at work.

One of our colleagues is in a divorce. She's often miserable but gets a lot of support from her colleagues, she's invited at every activity, gets emotional support etc.

I do understand what you are trying to say though!

I'm not sure what country you live in, maybe people there are not very social... is there a possibility to move? Sometimes such event gives a totally different perspective on the world.

A large number of these things did not exist when we had a lot less isolation, and a stronger social connection.

You dont need public transportation if you have a strong community proximal to you.

You dont need government childcare if You have teenagers (inexpensive babysitters) or family members to do it.

Nature takes the path of least resistance. I would suggestion this is reductionistic. People take the past of high certainty and higher rewards (albeit favoring the former)

If people _knew_ they would have a good time if they showed up at an event, they likely would do it.

Could you give some pointers re: Internal sense of self-worth, especially as relating to attachment theory? How did you get better?

Awesome and inspiring! Many blessings to you

Please count me in if these ever gets going -- I'm a relatively recent transplant (moved here 2 years ago) but found it very easy to plug into the local security scene (Black Lodge Research, Harry's on Thursdays, HushCon, etc.) and while they're fun to hang out and meet other folks in the space, I've been looking for a more hands-on tinkering meetup with clearly defined goals (we are going to learn about XYZ today).

P.S. if you're a hardware nerd, you might like https://dma.space/ (just had their grand opening this weekend) over in Capitol Hill.

Seattle is a great city for stuff like this. You probably already know about the Seattle Robotics Society, but if not, check them out.

https://seattlerobotics.org/

They have monthly meeting and are active in all kinds of events around the city.

A thought-provoking vision. There seem many many underexplored opportunities for catalyzing social connections - match making.

When I'm doing "broad and shallow" at a meetup, there are invariably "oh, you'll want to talk with X over there, they <overlap on some intent interest>". It can feel tragic to look out at a room of nifty people, in largely desultory conversations, knowing that there are some highly-valued conversations latent there, which won't occur, because our social and cultural and technical collaborative infrastructure still sucks so badly at all this.

In lectures augmented by peer-instruction, addressing the "if you think your lectures are working, your assessment also isn't" problem, one version has students clicker-committing to a question answer, then turning to discuss it with a neighbor, then clickering again. One variant (which you now many not be able to use commercially, because of the failed-startup-to-bigco patent pipeline), has the system chose who everyone turns to (your phone tells you "discuss with the person behind left"), attempting to maximize discussion fruitfulness, using its insight into who is confused about what. So perhaps imagine Tamagotchis as part social liaison - "hey, did you know the gal at the optometry shop here also enjoys heavy bluewater sailing?"

So on the topic question: Want to incentivize greater social contact...? Increase the payoffs.

It kind of sounds like you want to automate small talk. I think we need to have less tech, not more, if we're trying to solve this problem.

LLMs are a scam and should not be used to address loneliness.

From personal experience, I know that interacting with people on social media barely helps with loneliness, especially with an increase in bots.

What I know would help me is to have genuine relationships, friendships where we both care about each other, even if it's something as small as having coffee with them every day, learning about the other person, asking how their day was, and having these things be reciprocated voluntarily.

Even something so small would mean the world to someone like me, as long as it's coming from someone who I respect, who has something I admire about them. This part is important for a friendship. It can't just be any random person, it has to be someone with qualities I admire. I'm still trying to work out what that means and why it is.

I agree with this, and I think we're partly conditioned to think this way. We (think we) can change ourselves, but we (believe we) can't change the world. I think it's OK to think bigger.

To make friends, people need a place to meet, to have time and means to be there, and a reason to go there semi-regularly. A lot of the design of society completely ignores these needs. These are solvable problems.

We invented Soma from Brave New World. No amount of individual action will overcome the primary cause. Getting rid of Soma is the only effective solution.

Even if you avoid Soma yourself, you will still face the negative effects of a society plagued by Soma.

Yeah, lots of "change your habits" type responses that won't change the reason we're here.

> But how do we actively incentivize that?

Is immediately and completely solving the problem not a good enough incentive? If you go outside and interact, you will be much less lonely.

There is no barrier! You don't need to overthink this. Walkable cities third spaces etc., all great — but literally just go out and interact with people you can do it today many people do it to great success!

This is pretty spot on. It is like telling deug addicts to stop buying legal and unregulated drugs. Never gonna work.

Real change will require enforced regulation on the methods and tactics social media is allowed to use. Things like notification limits, rules on gamification, feed transparency, and more.

In the states this will never happen. The corporations own the rules.

Drive up demand for third places where people can meet new friends.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink

>> But how do we actively incentivize that?

Pre-schedule it. Ideally recurring. Can be monthly. Possibly even bi-weekly. Agree on a time and do it on schedule. Pre-scheduling removes all the mental load of finding a time together.

I think the trick is getting off social media.

When I was a computer nerd in the 2000s, I noticed people used to like to hang around and chat, but I mostly didn't.

Now, everyone is an internet addict, and I was just ahead of the curve. No one hangs around and chats anymore.

When you get off social media, real life becomes far more interesting. The problem with addiction is that it's so stimulating that everything else is boring. You have to let your mind reset.

> (unwalkable towns where all of the houses are big garages in the front and no porches)

You can turn the garage into a hangout spot. A neighbor has a full bar with communal table plus TV for sports and he opens up the garage door once a week on a schedule (Sunday game day or whatever depending on the season) and whenever he feels like it on work week evenings. As people pass by we invite them over and after a few months everyone knows that when the garage is open, they can come over for a drink and to shoot the shit. Low pressure social interactions that often turn into weekend outings, regular poker games, etc.

Now years later we get impromptu block parties when he brings out the grill onto the driveway. It’s done wonders for our community in an otherwise unwalkable SoCal suburb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

This is answering the wrong question.

You're answering the question, "In a loneliness epidemic, what can I do to be less lonely?" Your answer is to use self discipline (which is hard) to get out of your house consistently, a decent answer to that question.

To actually fix the loneliness epidemic, you'd have to get everyone else to do that.

In the 20th century, getting out of the house consistently was the easiest way to interact with other people. Now, you can interact with lots of other people (in a less satisfying way) without leaving your house. What's going to fix that?

How do we get everyone to eat better? How do we get everyone to get enough sleep? How do we get everyone to exercise more? "Just tell them to do it" won't work. "Why don't we all just put our phones away?" won't work. We'd need a policy.

(My best guess: in the US, mandate that health insurers pay for therapy, and provide therapy at low/no cost in countries with national health care.)

I do this. Even to the point where I go to church yet am openly agnostic. Takes the right church, I enjoy a good pastor and message even if I don’t technically believe it can be rooted in morality or philosophy and I can filter out the religious aspects. I could do without the singing but that’s my wife’s favorite part.

The thing is, church works for this because it’s an agreed upon and set time of the week. It’s also a broad group of people. Having friends of all ages is beneficial. I prefer it to a hobby group or our parent groups where we are all very similar in many aspects, although I do those too I just feel like their impact is less on building my own character.

It’s hard to lose what has been lost in the macro sense and then go from 0 to 1. A social movement like “screen free Saturday” or something would be ideal. Kids had to prearrange where to meet, where the teens will party (they don’t party anymore yall!), arrange logistics, and deal with being bored during some part of the day (underrated life skill, as a busy adult I love being bored, but hated it when young). I just recently explained to my kid how TV worked in the 80s. You couldn’t pick what to watch and there were very few times when cartoons were on. You either watched the news or MASH with the adults or found something else to do out of boredom.

> Attend every week.

In my experience, this is the key. “90% of life is showing up.” If you are around the same people every week, for whatever reason, with even a minimal amount of openness and friendliness, you will get community.

> People need to purposefully and intentionally do things. Sitting home on an app, watching TV is easy. There is no fear or rejection, there is no work to get out of the house, there is no risk. But there is also no reward.

This is the wrong model:

Sitting (alone) at home and working on program code or reading scientific textbooks does have a reward. Many things for which you go outside of the house or where you interact with other people have a much lower reward. So you rather loose a rather decent local optimum, and if you don't know very well where to look outside for something really good, you get much worse results than if you simply stayed at home and do there what you love.

This is good advice for your friends and family, but a bad answer to the question. "How can we solve the obesity epidemic? Stop eating so much and get some exercise." Well sure, but this misses the big picture. We built a social infrastructure that encourages a sedentary, solitary life. We shouldn't be confused by physical and emotional health implications. We can expect some people to be proactive about it, but we can't expect that of everyone.

Sure, but what about the people who don't do this? Those who sit at home all day, scrolling away, drinking themselves to death, wondering why life is so lonely.

The only time you ever see such people is when they're walking to the grocery store. How do you reach out to them to let them know about these ideas or encourage them to try it? Especially when they're filled with discouraging thoughts?

What if all they need is one single person to say hi? How can I find them, reach them? This is what I'm asking.

this is one reason, while i personally work from home, i actually lament that many 20-somethings will never be in an office

i'm nearing 40, have a wife and kid, house in the mountains, etc... but, damn, those office days were foundational to the person I am today

This movie

https://joinordiefilm.com/

based on the work of Robert Putnam is an essential backgrounder on the topic.

Yet, if you're concerned about Gen Z, 2-4 are aspirational at best. Churches, clubs, live music events, and every other group my son attends have a lot of people who are 35+ and children that tag along but the 18-30 demo is almost absolutely absent at events away from the local colleges and universities. [1] It's quite depressing for someone his age who is looking to connect with his cohort in person.

Leaders of groups are somewhere between outright hostile, completely indifferent, or well-meaning but unable to do anything about the "cold start" problem.

I'm sympathetic to the argument of Ancient Wisdom Tradition (AWT) practitioners that secularism is to blame, but my consistent advice to anyone is you can control what you can control and that secularism would not have encroached as much as it has if AWT organizations weren't asleep at the switch if not doing the devil's work for him.

Personally in the last year I've found a lot of meaning being an event photographer for this group

https://fingerlakesrunners.org/

where I know you can find some people in the 18-30 hole because I read their age off their bibs.

My son is doing all the ordinary things and I am supporting him in all the ordinary ways but I do believe extraordinary times require extraordinary methods.

I can't advise that anyone follow my path but I felt a calling to shamanism two years ago which recently became real, I "go out" as

https://mastodon.social/@UP8/115901190470904729

who is a "kidult" and who embodies [2] the wisdom, calm and presence of a 1000-year old fox who's earned his nine tails. In one of the worlds I inhabit I'd call this a "platform" for gathering information and making interventions as it builds rapport and bypasses barriers and the social isolation of Gen Z is my top priority for activism in my circle of influence.

[1] ... and our data there seems to indicates that Asian students seem to be OK and white kids, if they do anything at all, drink.

[2] ... at least aspires to

A somewhat cynical response given the frequency of this topic/question being posted here and on other social media platforms. Add a weak "/s but not really" if you want:

People sitting at home living on apps and watching TV who decide to go to a new group social event to change things up will struggle to make a connection with someone else who was at home on an app and watching TV deciding to get out and meet someone else.

The people who have friends.. already have friends. Those who don't are numerous social cycle iterations in on that.

And how long before those people just end up talking about TV shows anyway?

Join a religious organization to fight loneliness is like start smoking to loose weight.

I think what makes this good advice especially difficult is that it cannot be one-sided. When everyone is letting doom-scrolling replace their social interaction, then one person won't easily solve their own problem by going out to socialize. We need a broader solution, probably a cultural shift away from using technology as a crutch to avoid other people. Maybe the current younger generations will evolve a balance.

Agreed. I'm not sure how it happened, but it feels like we've experienced a societal shift where a large number of people now expect and wait for other people to create nicely packaged solutions to their (real or imagined) problems. From social apps to medicine to play dates to curated vacations, too many people are unwilling to face "the great unknown" that is just going out and seeing what happens, warts and all. Somehow the ability of boomers to make conversation with strangers has become a meme instead of a norm - they're good at it because they practice it.

> 2. Join a religious organization. Go to church, but also join the mens/womens group, join a bible studies class. Attend every week.

So no atheists then?

I want to do this "grow at least 2 roots into your community" idea but a huge challenge for me is simply that I'm 2nd shift. That naturally leads to a lot more isolation than 1st shift. (3rd shifties, my heart goes out to you. I've done that job. Not a fun time personally.)

I always tell people to find a meetup group and then you will run into people with similar interests. I’ve made some good friends that way.

Sounds like a lot of work.

Isn't there an app where I can just order a temporary friend for a few hours.

Uber Friend.

> 1. People need to make a point to talk to their neighbors

There are people who find this satisfying. However, you don't typically choose your neighbors. Don't be afraid to eschew spending time on this in favor of groups you deliberately choose based on common interests.

1. fair 2. did this but they are all 80+ 3. ok 4. not that good at anything, too old for most groups. gym no one talks with anyone. bjj was the best for this, since its more older and mostly men 5. remote work ruined my mental health

> Sitting home on an app, watching TV is easy. ...there is also no reward.

Like hell there isn't. Speak for yourself.

I think part of the problem is the stuff you’re suggesting. I think everyday life needs to happen organically and if everything is scheduled and regimented and needs to be planned for, it’s very hard for the vast majority of people to actually accomplish. In the past the way, this worked was you went to church which was societally and peer enforced. People need to have marriages that last a lifetime. It’s my opinion that marriages that are a partnership without any sort of hierarchy like we had in the past are essentially doomed to fail except in a small percentage of cases. You need to have kids with stable homes that can go out on the street and be outside all day without fear of crime. Extended families need to live close to each other so there are a lot of folks raising kids and approaching life’s every day problems together. You need to shut off indoor sources of entertainment like social media and video gaming. You need to have a solid education system that is factual and science based, and only lets kids get through on the basis of meritocracy so they can be good informed citizens, and not vote for populist nonsense like we currently have. In a nutshell, what I’m trying to say is people cannot act on what’s best for them but society can put enough peer pressure on everyone for everyone’s good. This might be very hard to listen to in an individualistic society like ours and I don’t even know if I would want to live in this society, but I believe that if that’s the only option, everyone is better off.

I see this as quite a problem in the US. The default place a lonely person has to go is usually a church - where you can expect a modicum, possibly even a seeming profusion, of welcome. This is their hook. They provide automatic acceptance - of sorts. This is also how the right wing fascist regime convinced people to let Trump take over the country - propaganda through the churches.

The only other options people hear about are 'join a club.' Interesting clubs aren't that easy to find. Hanging out at the local pub has obvious downsides, though I guess it sorta works in some countries.

We need more ways for people to casually meet others that aren't trying to manipulate you or program you with religious doctrine...

Volunteering is a great way to get out of a slump. Service of any kind is really great at gaining new perspective and finding value in life. It helped me realign my life years ago, too.

But I ended up taking it too far. Boundaries start to get blurry, my value started to get wrapped up in my service, to the point it became “well if I stop serving I’ll be worthless”. Which is a tough feeling to face, especially when a subset of the people you end up serving, while appreciative, really end up not caring that much about you as a person. They’re not in a place to give you emotional support, usually.

All that to say, balance is the spice of life. Service is great. Just be sure to balance it out with another source of replenishment.

This definitely helps a little.

But the other part of loneliness is feeling like (or knowing that) nobody cares what you think or feel or have to say.

I've been (accidentally) helping people with my surveys for a few months now. It brings a sense of joy when someone comes up to me and tells me that my presence has helped them or that they look forward to my surveys. But it also increases the loneliness that I feel, because none of them care about me or what I think or how I feel. None of them have ever asked.

Well, except for a couple friends I've made, who clearly do care now, and have shown it in a few ways, but we just haven't had an opportunity yet to have coffee or some other interaction where they can show more directly that they care about me, by asking me about how I feel, etc. But those are the exception.

I suppose, that's what I'm after. Not just personally for myself, but what I'm trying to help solve for other people: to help them get to a point where others actually do care about them, and they have opportunities to show it, such as asking how their day was over coffee. For countless people who are just like me, I think this is all they need to not feel lonely anymore. So that's my goal.

And I don't think volunteering is the answer, but I think it can be a start for some of them, a way to meet people. But just as good a way to meet people as saying hi to the person at the next self checkout kisk or the bus stop. The problem for most people is that they don't say hi. Maybe they're convinced, like I am, that nobody would ever want them to, that they would only be a burdensome bother to others, and therefore should always stay silent.

I suppose this is what I'm trying to solve. How to convince others that this isn't true, as one person standing outside holding a sign.

I do think it's worth separating two things, though. Helping others and building community can be deeply meaningful, but not everyone who's lonely has the capacity

I have noticed that doing the sign leads to some good conversations in which I've helped someone in a small way, and that gave me a nice little dopamine boost. It's also led to about half a dozen genuine friendships over the past few months. I wonder if that's the answer, a sort of meta-solution: organizing this thing I'm doing into something that other people in the same situation can do, as a way of meeting people and getting outside their comfort zone. Like setting up a chess table in public if chess is your thing. But no, there are already public chess tables, and they'd have already done that. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

This is my go-to strategy as well. When I feel irrepressible bits of loneliness or depression, I just make some food and go out and start handing out to the needy.

Or go for a walk and find people that need a hand. People moving, lifting things, carrying things. Small little acts of being useful and helpful for a moment help.

The feeling will creep back in eventually, but at least for that time I was out and about, it's not.

>The common denominator is to have shared spaces where it's expected to be among strangers' presence, and for those strangers to eventually become repeat guests in a person's life. That's the maximally comfortable scenario for inducing social behavior and it's responsible for eons of human social history.

This is spot on. It's why you meet so much people during your high school / college years. You're among strangers' presence, while attending to class, which makes a natural topic of interest between the people involved.

I think a lot about something I've heard game devs say. Something like "players will always find a way to optimize the fun out of the game".

Controversial example: in Breath of the Wild, your weapons break really fast. But, they only break while fighting enemies and looting places, so you almost always end up with more/higher-powered weapons. It's the game's way of always giving you new weapons that have different quirky properties to keep combat interesting. But players don't like that friction and uncertainty: it's probably the most hated on aspect of the game. Players want to keep their same weapons the whole time, and miss out on the constant variety.

I think that in the same way, we've optimized the fun out of life. We collectively tend to avoid uncertainty and friction. We let yelp/google maps reviews tell us what restaurants are good. We watch movies at home instead of trekking all the way to the movie theater. Get food delivered and even dropped off at the door so we literally don't even have to speak to another human at all. We've been optimizing the fun out of life, and we didn't realize it until it was bad enough to be called a "loneliness epidemic"!!

https://xkcd.com/662/

I posted on another subthread but I think this is largely an excuse. If you live in a typical suburb you have 15-20 families on your street. You can easily walk next door and chat or just say hello when you see someone outside. It takes initiative, which is the key thing that's missing. You either hide in your house or you get out and be sociable.

I live in a completely different city, a post-soviet one, with dense streets, 9-storey apartment buildings. But still it's hard to socialize. It's the same both in the center, and on the fringe with large micro-districts, where the density is the same, but people are less in haste, and there are less strangers. Same way, people are avoidant.

Like in subway you pretend that others don't exist, and it's hard to get closer with people. It can take months or years to start saying hello to a kiosk salesman you recognize. It's hard to get past by hello with the house neighbors. If you make steps forward, people are unease. Sometimes others are too quick with their steps, you get unease.

The most compelling theory I know is that you need to meet people occasionally, without intention, to deepen the relationships. If all your communication with someone is intentional, I guess, this feels awkward for both sides. I can confirm this from experience: living in a 80K town, I'd walk down the main street to the little shopping mall with a local supermarket for groceries, and would meet people I knew, or friends, and sometimes we'd go walking by the streets, with groceries bag in my hand :) or we planned to meet in 15 minutes. Or go to each other's home. This is hard to replicate in a big city, where even if you see a friend, he/she is usually in a hurry.

Near apartment blocks, there's no porch or garden or park, and even where there is one, I don't see locals sitting there regularly. People are very cautious, even suspicious of benches, because if there's a busy street nearby, once in a year there'll be a group of noisy young people sitting late at night, or one drunkard in a year, and everyone will get pissed off and want the bench removed. (If they allow to install it at all.)

Looking at some places, I theorized that maybe there should be a place where you could sit and let's say play board games _near_ those who come in and out. And of course, it should be indoors, because winters are long and cold. But But I'm not sure of a communal place indoors either. It could become a magnet for homeless, it can be a magnet for just the slacker drinking old men, and repel the rest of people. I've seen too many communities become place repulsive for "normies". Maintenance is a big question too.

So your solution to loneliness is “use voice chat”?

Where "get a hobby" often falls flat is that many modern hobbies are solo, screen-based, or optimized to be efficient rather than social

Way to completely miss the point there bub. Most crass answer here.

In a general sense, I think two things about this suggestion are universally useful in solving the epidemic: structured activities with clear expectations, and people who take the initiative to design and execute them.

For those people who I'm personally trying to reach, those who sit at home alone all day, and you only see them on the way to the grocery store and back, who desperately want to interact with people but don't know how to begin, they need someone to initiate the interaction, and they need to know the rules of the interaction, since this is mainly the reason they don't feel comfortable with freeform interactions with strangers and so avoid them.

Thank you for helping me realize that.

it seems like a lot of locales that would have been third places in the past have been neutered because the people go there and then immediately put up walls. coffeeshops have become ad-hoc offices where people will sit there with a laptop and give off "leave me alone, i'm working".

people need to find a way to sit in a third space without pulling up a screen or a book that immediately re-isolates you.

also: don't underestimate the subtle effect of architecture and seating arrangements here. a coffee shop is filled with lots of little two-seat tables that intentionally isolate. for contrast, think about local pubs/bars -- there's one big central seating arrangement where evertybody is facing the bartender. the bartender is naturally placed in a position that makes them serve as a conversational mediator that can facilitate connections between then people hanging out on the periphery.

CTRL+F "third place" -- take my upvote.

Anyone suffering in the loneliness epidemic should have a copy of The Great Good Place, by Ray Oldenburg. The entire point is that you should be putting yourself into socially active areas in your community.

This includes: a church, a local pub or coffee shop with regulars (ideally walking distance from where you live), a rec sports/game league or club.

Knowing this, I've perused it in my life and it seems very effective. I'm a regular at a Trivia Night one night per week (I don't go every week, but enough to know both the bartender and host by name). I'm a regular at a bar three blocks away from where I live, even if I consume only one non-alcoholic beverage and one alcoholic beverage per visit (a couple night a week), that leaves me plenty of time to chat with my neighbors. I'm a member of a local golf club (a very cheap municipal course), and play there every other week, and after a couple years have very good relationships with many of the other members even if we don't interact much outside of the club. At my last apartment, I was a regular at the coffee shop enough to know multiple baristas by name, it wasn't exactly a third place situation, but it was getting close before I moved. I'm not religious, but I'm very familiar with academic institutions and open lecture series that I used tot attend in grad school.

I do this intentionally. My partner had never been a regular at a bar before, and she really, really enjoys it now even though she doesn't really drink. When she joins me, she will maybe consume one-half of a light beer. You don't have to be an alcoholic to be a regular, this is a major point that Oldenburg discusses when he contrasts German-style drinking culture with English-style drinking culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Good_Place_(book)

> Fourth, work is more stressful now. There used to be more time to socialize, but in our quest for productivity, work became denser with fewer idle times

The we here is not most people.

The quest for higher productivity is not something people really care about.

I think the solution is for the app to advertise public social events where people can make connections and exchange contact information in person.

Allowing random people to message each other without meeting in person is a mistake. The nonverbal cues people get from in person interactions are helpful for discovering shared interested and personality compatibility.

one issue is that if you leave it to the free market, you will just get more issues. for monopolies, it's more profitable to keep someone unhealthy (and depressed) than it is to make someone healthy once forever.

Privacy reasons. You don’t want a VC funded startup to know your contact list and your location (because hanging out in real life requires physical proximity).

A young woman explained to me the other week what you're doing now. She said it's become a meme called Bean Soup. I'm grateful for all the friends I've made since I starting doing my signs. Genuinely fulfilling friendships, for the first time in my life.

Do you run at the same pace? I'm just curious how can conversations between multiple people running are going on

    > 4. (experimental) I don't drink, which does curtail my social opportunities. I'm considering updating my drinking policy this year. My hypothesis is that the benefits of having a strong community out-weigh the health benefits of abstinence.

> Latin America or western Europe or east Asia

I can attest both LatAm and Europe are quickly turning the same way. At least in the bigger cities. Take public transport and 70% are frying their brains with their phones on algorithmic timelines, dumb mobile games, or worse. Women even more. You go to a bar and try to start a conversation and people look at you like you are a creep or a scammer. I've heard this happens to Gen Z, too.

Both latam and western europe report and east Asia report higher loneliness rates than the US or the Nordics. Very consistently.

American culture allows you folks to talk to each other, though.

Growing up British means that I literally can't talk to a stranger unless I'm in a pub and have two pints inside me.

[dead]

As someone who was a libertarian as a child, I assure you the idea of relaxing regulations is quite unpopular.

Lots of factors cause this. Obviously established businesses hate competition. There seems to be a tendency for politicians to make more laws as a bandaid rather than remove old(but this isnt universally true). And finally and probably most importantly, people like the status quo. Change is scary.

Also I live in the suburbs and we have a coffee shop within 2 minutes walking. I just have a hard time paying $4 for a coffee to meet people when most people are on their laptops anyway.

My friends come from sports clubs, parties, and the parents of my kids via birthday parties.

> Americans get an idea of how bad we have it when we go on vacation, but we don't see it as something that can be built at home.

It's so strange how this works. They go, sometimes repeatedly, to enjoy these rather basic things, but behave as though they're visiting a quaint Disneyland of sorts and as though there could be no lessons they could take away and apply toward a vision of their own community...

> or into the first floor of your apartment complex.

I wouldn't trust a cafe built into an apartment complex. I'd expect it to be low-quality, over-priced food placed specifically to try and make a quick buck off people who don't know any better or who physically can't get somewhere better.

You're right that it goes beyond car culture (and zoning laws are part of car culture), but I think it also goes beyond zoning laws. A lack of a social contract between people (individually) and businesses these days is probably involved, too. All these things are interrelated.

I do believe high standards are behind a lot of the dating issues. Dating pools are so large that people hold out for the right combination of the things they find desirable--except they're never going to find that because they don't have exactly the right combination to attract that "perfect" match.

Is that REALLY a lot of power, though? Reddit is quasi-anonymous, how "isolated" are you when you can create a different account in seconds?

Old geezer take: If you're referring to smart phones - social engagement in the US was already headed down 5 decades before those were invented. I blame TV.

Unlike the supposedly golden 1950s, a lot of people today were adults before and after the 2010s and would say similar things comparing the two.

> but space is the issue at present I believe.

Is it? There are a number of third places around here that sit effectively vacant. The few who are passionate about seeing those spaces thrive will tell you that the problem is getting anyone to come, not finding space to host them.

I have considered a "physical social network". Standing on my usual street corner and holding a sign that directs strangers to join me and whoever else shows up, for a casual chat at the local coffee place at a specific time, with a few topics for conversation listed on the sign up front. If anyone has ideas for those topics, let me know, I'm likely to do it this Sunday.

When NextDoor first came around, I recall walking down the street to help a lady move her couch down to the ground floor. She then gave me some cookies she'd baked. Fun! The notifications it sends me these days are less enjoyable so I send them to spam because unsubscribing doesn't seem to reliably work for me.

> Make a social network that is centered around people who live in a 1 kilometer radius…

Don't know if they still do, but Nextdoor required address verification via a postcard early on. I was pretty shocked at what some people in my area would post under their real names and locations.

(And well outside the realm of political nonsense. Someone posted a pic of their toddler's first poop in the potty.)

I think the power of shame has reduced significantly in recent years.

Hear me out. Its not just social awkwardness. You're experiencing class boundaries and do not seem to have the right mentality to bridge the gap.

First, you call homeless people bums, which sets the stage for how you see and treat them.

I'm an excellent engineer, but I was abused and impoverished as a child, homeless as a teenager. During my 20s, I started a few companies but my savings have been continually depleted taking care of family members. I don't have a sports car or a big bank account, or nice cameras. When I see a stranger or homeless person, I smile and wave. I keep cash on me so that I always have some to give out. I buy people lunch and sit on the curb eating with them and attempting to understand them. I learn the names of my local homeless folk and ingratiate myself in the community. I've moved to a few cities so I've had the opportunity to do this a few times.

I don't do this because I lack social anxiety; I sometimes have extreme agoraphobia, to the point that I have to hype myself up for hours just to go to the grocery store, and I have to wear noise-cancelling headphones to reduce the amount of stimulation. I have PTSD. I'm an extreme introvert. A hermit at times.

But what saves me is the philosophical understanding that I have a duty to the social contract. That empathy and direct aid are nonnegotiable parts of being human. I've been homeless and I know what it's like to be truly hopeless and live a life of uncertainty, fear and hunger.

You need to bridge that gap. Class-induced anxiety is real and I acknowledge that it's probably difficult, but it's not an excuse. You sound like you're in a position to change someone's life. Taking those steps might change your own life.

What I found after many years, is that women (people in general, really) are not attracted to people who try too hard to get attention from them. Going through great lengths tends to result in being labeled as desperate or creepy. Try just to be friendly and talk "with" them and not "to" them, almost as if you are one of them. By doing that often enough, it will feel less awkward. Practice makes perfect. And then one day you feel a click with someone. Just my few cents.

I found it uncomfortable as a kid when I saw how my parents handled begging: ignoring it. I remember one time my father saying "that's ok". And I either say "no, sorry" or ignore.

I've heard of kids from cities being given money so they always have something to give a mugger instead of looking like you're holding out, I don't go that far but I remember it to keep perspective.

I recently made an effort to carry cash with me so I can leave tips in cash, still working on that. Would you be open to keeping singles on you to give? You can even give max of one per excursion and then decline or ignore the rest or any combination but maybe having that as a plan can help you feel comfortable. Yes you're training yourself and it's because you deserve the benefits of training.

As for non-bums hello is good, also fist bumps and nodding upwards; that stuff is cool AF and make people so damn happy.

I think you’ve missed a step here. How are lonely and alone people, who have trouble finding friends, supposed to find a spouse and have kids?

Maybe dumb question but how does one "join a volunteer organization?" I tried a long time ago but got ghosted.

This may just be me, but I hold the opposite view.

When I lived in a rural area with a few acres of property, I was much more social and engaged with my community.

Now I live at the edge of the city in a medium-high density townhouse area with no private outdoor space. Since I can never really get away from people and be alone, I also have no desire to go out and do things and engage with the community.

I think the variability is nice. If I can get home, relax, not have people around, have some private outdoor space, then I can recharge and have the energy to engage more.

Dense cities have the same problem or worse. There are even college towns with apartments where nobody talks to each other.

Damn. There are some things here that resonated with me and some that don’t. I had a time of my life where I just felt like I didn’t vibe with my ex’s friends. We’d go to parties and these people would feel so shallow. Having grown up poor around a bunch of perpetually rich people made me feel different.

You also said that the world is burning, and it is to some defree. But it’s also filled with so many kind and amazing people making an impact where they are. Sure, maybe the gal serving coffee isn’t fixing climate change but she’s making the person she’s talking to that day feel special. That’s important too. Same goes down the soccer coach who’s helping kids find passion in something.

The world is full of contradictions and imperfections. It’s also full of kindness and generosity everywhere you go, if you’re looking for it. If you’re looking for ways to validate that the world is burning, your gonna find those too

Social media blows, I hate it too. I’m not entirely sure society is moving in the right direction, but I’m just an atom in the ocean. I can affect those around me and hopefully those people affect more. My hope is that my joy spreads through other people, and if it doesn’t, that’s ok too.

I’m bummed you’re hurting, and with a job and a million responsibilities it can be hard to lift your gaze to see the forest for the trees

Your experiences are fine but don't completely give up and focus on what you can control. Like you can post your thoughts on social media. And don't expect views. Just just write for your own sake.

That would keep you busy and leave room for serendipity.

> how is anybody supposed to meet anyone?

It used to be that you knocked on the door of the residence beside you.

> And now many of them prefer the internet over socializing with people they don't care for that much in person.

This is the crux of it. Your neighbours weren't ever likely to be your soulmate, but that is who was there to befriend, so you did. But now you don't have to. And since they now feel the same way, they aren't putting in the effort either.

Yes of course people were lonely before the internet and social media, but that pushed them to go outside and solve the problem. Now they do the digital equivalent of taking drugs to make the problem go away.

> the social opportunities that existed in the 70's through the 90's simply doesn't exist anymore

Does it have to be that way?

Is there a way to bring back "the social outdoors" of those days? To recreate it?

Seen some of this happening in Melbourne, Australia, and it's almost suffering from too much success. Recently a free concert had to be canceled because tens of thousands of people showed up and they couldn't handle the numbers safely.

Very happy to see at least something is being tried to reverse the damage from covid.

The US is not lacking in public spaces, events and activities, or rec centres. The "loneliness epidemic" is a fairly modern phenomenon. Cities weren't structurally much different several decades ago, but now people choose not to leave the house, because they can amuse themselves to death there.

Unionize! Unionize! Unionize!

So much of the pressure comes from horrendous working conditions from top to bottom.

And as a secondary effect unions require meetings and hopefully cross organising with other unions having different people in them.

When we get better working conditions, we will have more time to meet other people rather than to sit exhausted with our phones having all the parasocial relationships that drain our social batteries without really connecting with a real person.

Sorry but this makes no sense. Socializing is not an act of kindness, generally - people mostly do it because they want to. And people have always been selfish.

have you ever lived in one?

> I've always wondered why applications like Tinder etc... have not been completely destroyed by open-source already ?

Same reason why Signal hasn't mogged WhatsApp, Telegram, Messenger, etc. Social apps have enormous network effects, and companies with large marketing budgets and early movers have big advantages when it comes to establishing a community.

The hard part of Tinder is not the software. It's marketing, moderation, balancing the needs of different users, etc. Something that makes the platform shitty for one type of user makes it more desirable for another.

I've posted this thought a few times in different ways, but in my experience, community is found and then built.

Regularly sharing space with others is the way to start finding community. I think your surveying is an example of that. The next step is when the interactions begin taking place outside of the regular time/place, as evidenced by your epilogue.

What I haven't posted before is anything about how to successfully create those connections. Maybe we get lucky and someone will share our taste in music or movies or what have you, and the connection will be almost effortless. But to increase the rate of connection, I've found that learning to ask good questions is key.

We can learn a lot from popular interviewers like Terry Gross, Johnny Carson, or James Lipton. But to provide some direct tips: Lead with open-ended questions (i.e. not "yes or no"). Ask follow-up questions. Share a little bit while asking questions (e.g. "I'm not really into X music, more Y. Where would I start if I wanted to listen to X?")

Of course, sometimes friendships just aren't meant to be. It's tough, and can feel like a waste of time to have made the connection, but I've been surprised multiple times when a conversation that seemed like a slog of a one-off led to fruitful friendships later.

After my dad died from cancer in 2018, I saw first hand the resulting loneliness and the lack of resources available. Being an engineer, I figured I might as well try to solve it, at least for some people. In 2020, I started a non-profit for small support groups[0]. We're small, and I've been mostly funding it myself, but it's growing. The main issue is we don't have the resources to cover every topic, so it's not for everyone (yet). Happy to chat if you have feedback, email is in my profile.

Everything we do is open source too[1].

[0]: https://www.totem.org/ [1]: https://github.com/totem-technologies/totem-server

Traumatic childhood almost always messes with how one attaches with people. A small exceptional fraction somehow manage to remain unaffected.

When attachment styles get warped, behaviors that were a self protective behavior in childhood, become self-defeating behaviors in adult life. The person is quite oblivious to all this because those behaviors and fragile modes of attachment feel perfectly normal -- it is like growing up in a different g (acceleration due to gravity).

It feels like - I am right, it's the others who are wrong, unfair, greedy, needy, flakey, stupid.

For me this book [0] was very helpful for understanding what's going on in and around me

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9547888-attached

> I'm catching up but not all the way there yet.

The only thing you have to catch up on is that there is nothing to catch up on. Everyone is at some stage of growth. No one is ever done growing.

I am impressed by your surveys. You're being open and engaging the world. That's awesome. Now hearing your story, I'd be happy to engage you or even buy you a coffee to hear the results.

Yet if I saw you on the street with a sign, I would likely hustle past. I've lived too long in big cities, and I've developed a crusty shell. So if I pass you by and ignore you, I apologize. I am the one with the problem. :-)

I like this poster thing. Anything that gives people a little connection to those around them.

I sometimes sit on my front step and play guitar. 9/10 people ignore me but usually I'll have one or two nice conversations with a neighbor, and have made a couple friends this way. It helps that I live in a dense walkable place with lots of people who are similar to me.

Wondering if your results are skewed towards people who are outside and therefore have a higher probability of not being lonely by virtue of them being amongst people.

Thanks for sharing.

Your website made me smile…it is a fun one for sure.

Helping people like you are seems like an amazing start. Maybe try to get a pyramid structure going where you teach people to help other people and then they teach people and then it’s a movement? But at all times a low level of effort so there is no pressure other than just holding up a sign or a marker.

I’ve found the hardest thing is breaking the ice and the sign / marker normalises a low stakes interaction where one participant can walk away at any time

Hey, I love you.

Since I was a small child, my grandfather used to beat me savagely and shake me and pin me to the ground, screaming that the devil was inside of me and that I would never be capable of loving or being loved. This was literally beaten into me. He'd beat me with the buckle end of the belt, like a whip, hitting my face, arms, whatever he could. He'd keep beating me until I couldn't cry anymore, telling me that men are not supposed to cry, and that it was his responsibility to teach me not to cry. I flashback at least once a day to it.

But, he was wrong. I love a lot. So much that sometimes it's unbearable. I cry all the time. Sometimes out of pure love for someone. And there are people who I think love me. Of course the doubt is permanently sewn in. But my heart goes out to you, seriously. I love you just for existing and being yourself, and I hope you're okay. We're not alone. Email's in my bio if you ever want to talk.