crote
3 months ago
I strongly recommend watching/reading the entire report, or the summary by Sal Mercogliano of What's Going On In Shipping [0].
Yes, the loose wire was the immediate cause, but there was far more going wrong here. For example:
- The transformer switchover was set to manual rather than automatic, so it didn't automatically fail over to the backup transformer.
- The crew did not routinely train transformer switchover procedures.
- The two generators were both using a single non-redundant fuel pump (which was never intended to supply fuel to the generators!), which did not automatically restart after power was restored.
- The main engine automatically shut down when the primary coolant pump lost power, rather than using an emergency water supply or letting it overheat.
- The backup generator did not come online in time.
It's a classic Swiss Cheese model. A lot of things had to go wrong for this accident to happen. Focusing on that one wire isn't going to solve all the other issues. Wires, just like all other parts, will occasionally fail. One wire failure should never have caused an incident of this magnitude. Sure, there should probably be slightly better procedures for checking the wiring, but next time it'll be a failed sensor, actuator, or controller board.
If we don't focus on providing and ensuring a defense-in-depth, we will sooner or later see another incident like this.
Aurornis
3 months ago
Thanks for the summary for those of us who can't watch video right now.
There are so many layers of failures that it makes you wonder how many other operations on those ships are only working because those fallbacks, automatic switchovers, emergency supplies, and backup systems save the day. We only see the results when all of them fail and the failure happens to result in some external problem that means we all notice.
arjie
3 months ago
It seems to just be standard "normalization of deviance" to use the language of safety engineering. You have 5 layers of fallbacks, so over time skipping any of the middle layers doesn't really have anything fail. So in time you end up with a true safety factor equal only to the last layer. Then that fails and looking back "everything had to go wrong".
As Sidney Dekker (of Understanding Human Error fame) says: Murphy's Law is wrong - everything that can go wrong will go right. The problem arises from the operators all assuming that it will keep going right.
I remember reading somewhere that part of Qantas's safety record came from the fact that at one time they had the highest number of minor issues. In some sense, you want your error detection curve to be smooth: as you get closer to catastrophe, your warnings should get more severe. On this ship, it appeared everything was A-OK till it bonked a bridge.
bombcar
3 months ago
This is the most pertinent thing to learn from these NTSB crash investigations - it's not what went wrong at the final disaster, but all the things that went wrong that didn't detect that they were down to one layer of defense.
Your car engaging auto brake to prevent a collision shouldn't be a "whew, glad that didn't happen" and more a "oh shit, I need to work on paying attention more."
aidenn0
3 months ago
I had to disable the auto-brake from RCT[1] sensors because of too many false-positives (like 3 a week) in my car.
1: rear-cross-traffic i.e. when backing up and cars are coming from the side.
ecshafer
3 months ago
One of my car's auto-brake sensors triggers when I back up out of by drive way. I can not back out of my drive way with the sensor on.
raverbashing
3 months ago
Yes and having 3 O-rings doesn't mean you can have one frozen solid "just this time"
dmurray
3 months ago
Why then does the NTSB point blame so much at the single wiring issue? Shouldn't they have the context to point to the 5 things that went wrong in the Swiss cheese and not pat themselves on the back with having found the almost-irrelevant detail of
> Our investigators routinely accomplish the impossible, and this investigation is no different...Finding this single wire was like hunting for a loose rivet on the Eiffel Tower.
In the software world, if I had an application that failed when a single DNS query failed, I wouldn't be pointing the blame at DNS and conducting a deep dive into why this particular query timed out. I'd be asking why a single failure was capable of taking down the app for hundreds or thousands of other users.
plorg
3 months ago
That seems like a difference between the report and the press release. I'm sure it doesn't help that the current administration likes quick, pat answers.
The YouTube animation they published notes that this also wasn't just one wire - they found many wires on the ship that were terminated and labeled in the same (incorrect) way, which points to an error at the ship builder and potentially a lack of adequate documentation or training materials from the equipment manufacturer, which is why WAGO received mention and notice.
da_chicken
3 months ago
> I'm sure it doesn't help that the current administration likes quick, pat answers.
Oh, the wire was blue?
In all seriousness, listing just the triggering event in the headline isn't that far out of line. Like the Titanic hit an iceburg, but it was also traveling faster than it should in spite of iceberg warnings, and it did so overloaded and without adequate lifeboats, and it turns out there were design flaws in the hull. But the iceberg still gets first billing.
plorg
3 months ago
I think it reads as too cute by a half. The wire was just the one of dozens of problems that happened last. It's natural to attribute cause in that way, but it's not really helpful in communicating the purpose of these investigations.
If this represents a change in style and/or substance of these kinds of press releases, my hunch would be that the position was previously hired for technical writers but was most recently filled by PR.
f4c39012
3 months ago
Interesting, recent podcast on the subject https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/632-the-titanics-best...
bombcar
3 months ago
It’s also immediately actionable and other similar ships can investigate their wires
toast0
3 months ago
The faulty wire is the root cause. If it didn't trigger the sequence of events, all of the other things wouldn't have happened. And it's kind of a tricky thing to find, so that's an exciting find.
The flushing pump not restarting when power resumed did also cause a blackout in port the day before the incident. But you know, looking into why you always have two blackouts when you have one is something anybody could do; open the main system breaker, let the crew restore it and that flushing pump will likely fail in the same way every time... but figuring out why and how the breaker opened is neat, when it's not something obvious.
nothercastle
3 months ago
Operators always like to just clear the fault and move on they have extremely high pressure to make schedule and low incentive to work safely
esafak
3 months ago
The solution then is observability, to use the computing term; to know the state of every part of the system.
crote
3 months ago
Oh, it gets even worse!
The NTSB also had some comments on the ship's equivalent of a black box. Turns out it was impossible to download the data while it was still inside the ship, the manufacturer's software was awful and the various agencies had a group chat to share 3rd party software(!), the software exported thousands of separate files, audio tracks were mixed to the point of being nearly unusable, and the black box stopped recording some metrics after power loss "because it wasn't required to" - despite the data still being available.
At least they didn't have anything negative to say about the crew: they reacted timely and adequately - they just didn't stand a chance.
nothercastle
3 months ago
It’s pretty common for black boxes to be load shed during an emergency. Kind of funny how that was allowed for a long time.
MengerSponge
3 months ago
"they reacted timely and adequately" and yet: they're indefinitely restricted (detained isn't the right word, but you get it) to Baltimore, while the ship is free to resume service.
haddonist
3 months ago
One of the things Sal Mercogliano stressed is that the crew (and possibly other crews of the same line) modified systems in order to save time.
Rather than doing the process of purging high-sulphur fuel that can't be used in USA waters, they had it set so that some of the generators were fed from USA-approved fuel, resulting in redundancy & automatic failover being compromised.
It seems probable that the wire failure would not have caused catastrophic overall loss of power if the generators had been in the normal configuration.
user
3 months ago
dboreham
3 months ago
Also the zeroth failure mode: someone built a bridge that will collapse if any of the many many large ships that sail beneath it can't steer itself with high precision.
foobar1962
3 months ago
Ships were a lot smaller when the bridge was designed and built.
fl7305
3 months ago
In 1971 there where ships with almost twice the displacement of the Dali.
They weren't freight ships destined for Baltimore, but it wasn't hard to imagine future freight ship sizes when designing the bridge in the early 1970s.
The London sewer system was designed in the 1850s, when the population was around two million people.
It was so overdesigned that it held up to the 1950s, when the population was over 8 million. It didn't start to become a big problem until the 1990s.
myself248
3 months ago
Right? There's an artificial island in that very harbor, which could be rammed by similar ships all day and give nary a fuck. It's called Fort Carroll and it was built in the *1850s*.
Why the bridge piers weren't set into artificial islands, I can't fathom. Sure. Let's build a bridge across a busy port but not make it ship-proof. The bridge was built in the 1970s, had they forgotten how to make artificial islands?
potato3732842
3 months ago
If you design a fort and it actually gets used and turns out to suck that WILL be the end of your career in the military even if it only comes out as sucking 20yr later unless you have an airtight case why it's not your fault. That's just how the .mil works. Heads MUST roll. This is completely the opposite from big company bureaucracy and on a literal different planet than civil government bureaucracy.
The organizations that made the bridge happen were so much more vast and so much higher turnover and subject to way, way, way looser application of consequences than the one that built the fort it would be literally impossible to get them to produce something so unnecessarily robust for the average use case.
This sort of "everything I depend on will just have to not suck because my shit will keel right over if it sucks in the slightest" type engineering is all over the modern world and does work well in a lot of places when you consider lifetime cost. But when it fails bridges fall over and cloudflare (disclaimer, didn't actually read that PM, have no idea what happened) goes down or whatever.
prewett
3 months ago
> on a literal different planet than civil government
Unless the military was relocated to Mars (or at least the Moon) during the shutdown, I think the word is "metaphorically" instead of "literal".
B1FF_PSUVM
3 months ago
Or it was just a different plane ...
cindyllm
3 months ago
[dead]
myself248
3 months ago
Obligatory: https://how.complexsystems.fail/
jacquesm
3 months ago
The problem is that there are a thousand merchant marine vessels operating right now that are all doing great - until the next loose wire. The problem is that nobody knows about that wire and it worked fine on the last trip. The other systems are all just as marginal as they were on the 'Dali' but that one shitty little wire is masking that.
Running a 'tight ship' is great when you have a budget to burn on excellent quality crew. But shipping is so incredibly cut-throat that the crew members make very little money, are effectively modern slaves and tend to carry responsibilities way above their pay grade. They did what they could, and more than that, and for their efforts they were rewarded with what effectively amounted to house arrest while the authorities did their thing. The NTSB of course will focus on the 'hard' causes. But you can see a lot of frustration shine through towards the owners who even in light of the preliminary findings had changed absolutely nothing on the rest of their fleet.
The recommendation to inspect the whole ship with an IR camera had me laughing out loud. We're talking about a couple of kilometers of poorly accessible duct work and cabinets. You can do that while in port, but while you're in port most systems are idle or near idle and so you won't ever find an issue like this until you are underway, when vibration goes up and power consumption shoots up compared to being in port.
There is no shipping company that is effectively going to do a sea trial after every minor repair, usually there is a technician from some supplier that boards the vessel (often while it is underway), makes some fix and then goes off-board again. Vessels that are not moving are money sinks so the goal is to keep turnaround time in port to an absolute minimum.
What should really amaze you is how few of these incidents there are. In spite of this being a regulated industry it is first and foremost an oversight failure, if the regulators would have more budget and more manpower there maybe would be a stronger drive to get things technically in good order (resist temptation: 'shipshape').
sitkack
3 months ago
> But you can see a lot of frustration shine through towards the owners who even in light of the preliminary findings had changed absolutely nothing on the rest of their fleet.
Between making money, perceived culpability and risks offloaded to insurance companies why would they?
> The problem is that there are a thousand merchant marine vessels operating right now that are all doing great
Are they tho?
I generally think you have good takes on things, but this comes across like systemic fatalistic excuse making.
> The recommendation to inspect the whole ship with an IR camera had me laughing out loud.
Where did this come from? What about the full recommendations from the NTSB. This comment makes it seem like you are calling into question the whole of the NTSB's findings.
"Don't look for a villain in this story. The villain is the system itself, and it's too powerful to change."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Scott_Key_Bridge_colla...
jacquesm
3 months ago
> Between making money, perceived culpability and risks offloaded to insurance companies why would they?
Because it is the right thing to do, and the NTSB thinks so too.
>> The problem is that there are a thousand merchant marine vessels operating right now that are all doing great > Are they tho?
In the sense that they haven't caused an accident yet, yes. But they are accidents waiting to happen and the owners simply don't care. It usually takes a couple of regulatory interventions for such a message to sink in, what the NTSB is getting at there is that they would expect the owners to respond more seriously to these findings.
>> The recommendation to inspect the whole ship with an IR camera had me laughing out loud. > Where did this come from?
Page 58 of the report.
And no, obviously I am not calling into question the whole of the NTSB's findings, it is just that that particular one seems to miss a lot of the realities involving these vessels.
> "Don't look for a villain in this story. The villain is the system itself, and it's too powerful to change."
I don't understand your goal with this statement, it wasn't mine so the quotes are not appropriate and besides I don't agree with it.
Loose wires are a fact of life. The amount of theoretical redundancy is sufficient to handle a loose wire, but the level of oversight and the combination of ad-hoc work on these vessels (usually under great time pressure) together are what caused this. And I think that NTSB should have pointed the finger at those responsible for that oversight as well, which is 'MARAD', however, MARAD does not even rate a mention in the report.
HelloMcFly
3 months ago
>> "Don't look for a villain in this story. The villain is the system itself, and it's too powerful to change."
> I don't understand your goal with this statement, it wasn't mine so the quotes are not appropriate and besides I don't agree with it.
fwiw, your first comment left with me the exact same impression as it did sitkack.
jacquesm
3 months ago
Oh, there are plenty of villains here. But they're in offices and wearing ties.
And they should be smacked down hard, but that isn't going to happen because then - inevitably - the role of the regulators would come under scrutiny as well. That is the main issue here. The NTSB did a fantastic job - as they always do - at finding the cause, it never ceases to amaze me how good these people are at finding the technical root cause of accidents. But the bureaucratic issues are the real root cause here: an industry that is running on wafer thing margins with ships that probably should not be out there, risking peoples lives for a miserly wage.
Regulators should step in and level the playing field. Yes, that will cause prices of shipping to rise. But if you really want to solve this that is where I think they should start and I am not at all saying that the system is too powerful to change, just that for some reason they seem to refuse to even name it, let alone force it to change.
fmbb
3 months ago
Fwiw and since you received several comments about it, your first comment did not come off to everyone as making excuses. It was pretty clear you were trying to turn peoples attention to the real problem.
There was also no fatalistic tone about the system being too powerful to change. Just clear sharing of observations IMO.
It is not unusual to receive this reaction (being blamed for fatalism and making excuses) from observations like these, I have noticed.
jacquesm
3 months ago
I suspect a lot of people commenting in this thread have never been on one of these ships or have any idea of what the typical state of maintenance is, and how inaccessible the tech compartments are when the vessel is underway. This isn't exactly a server room environment. When vessels are new (in the first five years or so) and under the first owners they are usually tip-top. Then, after the first sale the rot sets in and unless there is a major overhaul you will see a lot of issues like these, usually they do not have such terrible consequences. They tend to last for 25 years or so (barring mishaps) and by then the number of repairs will be in the 100's and the vessel has changed hands a couple of times.
Passenger carrying vessels are better, but even there you can come across some pretty weird stuff.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2025/08/27/msc-...
And that one was only three years old, go figure.
HelloMcFly
3 months ago
I agree with all of this and everything you've said thus far. I hope my prior comment was not interpreted as some sort of indictment or attack on your motives.
sitkack
3 months ago
Your original comment comes of like excuse making and that nothing can possibly be done.
> > Between making money, perceived culpability and risks offloaded to insurance companies why would they?
> Because it is the right thing to do, and the NTSB thinks so too.
Doing great is much different than, "accidents waiting to happen".
I don't understand the goal of your changing rhetoric.
user
3 months ago
amelius
3 months ago
You can also look at the problem from the perspective of the bridge. Why was it possible that a ship took it down? Motors can fail ...
richardwhiuk
3 months ago
It’s not realistically plausible to build bridges that won’t be brought down by that size of ship
capyba
3 months ago
This, 100%. I forget the specific numbers but regardless, the kinetic energy of a thing with that much mass, even moving at a very slow speed, is off the charts. Designing a bridge or protections for a bridge to survive that would at a minimum be cost prohibitive, if even possible with today’s materials and construction technologies.
sitkack
3 months ago
Doesn't mean that nothing can be done. https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/nr20250320.as...
> The NTSB found that the Key Bridge, which collapsed after being struck by the containership Dali on March 26, 2024, was almost 30 times above the acceptable risk threshold for critical or essential bridges, according to guidance established by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials, or AASHTO.
> Over the last year, the NTSB identified 68 bridges that were designed before the AASHTO guidance was established — like the Key Bridge — that do not have a current vulnerability assessment. The recommendations are issued to bridge owners to calculate the annual frequency of collapse for their bridges using AASHTO’s Method II calculation.
Letters to the 30 bridge owners and their responses https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-public/sr-details/H-25-003
throwaway173738
3 months ago
This is essentially the same thing that happened with Fukushima Daiichi. The organization running it failed to respond to new information.
user
3 months ago
potato3732842
3 months ago
Energy doesn't mean squat without a time component over which it's dissipated.
Stopping a car normally vs crashing a car. Skydiving with a parachute vs skydiving without a parachute.
For something like ship vs bridge you have to account for the crunch factor. USS Iowa going the same speed probably would've hit way harder despite having ~1/3 the tonnage.
potato3732842
3 months ago
Nah, we definitely can.
Plan the bridge so any ship big enough to hurt it grounds before it gets that close. Don't put pilings in the channel. It's just money. But it's a lot of money so sometimes it's better to just have shipping not suck.
Alternatively, the Chunnel will almost certainly never get hit with a ship.
jacquesm
3 months ago
> Plan the bridge so any ship big enough to hurt it grounds before it gets that close.
Have a look at the trajectory chart that I posted upthread and tell me how in this particular case you would have arranged that.
amelius
3 months ago
Yet another idea: if a ship's motors fail, have a ship ready that can push it in the right direction, in time. Probably need 2x the amount of horsepowers to make up for lost time, but it's not impossible.
jacquesm
3 months ago
Yes, that's called a tug and in plenty of harbors a vessel of this size would not be permitted to do close quarters maneuvers without the mandatory assistance of one, or in this case more likely two, tug boats of a certain minimum size relative to the size of the vessel.
jacquesm
3 months ago
Yes, but if you think of a ship once underway when the engine fails as an unguided ballistic missile with a mass that is absolutely mind boggling (the Dali masses 100,000 tonnes) there isn't much that you could build that would stop it. The best suggestion I've seen is to let the ship run aground but that ignores the situation around the area where the accident happened.
This ship wasn't towed by a tug, it was underway under its own power and in order for the ship to have any control authority at all it needs water flowing over the rudder.
Without that forward speed you're next to helpless and these things don't exactly turn on a dime. So even if there had been a place where it could have run aground it would never have been able to reach it because it was still in the water directly in front of the passage way under the bridge.
100,000 tonnes doing 7 Kph is a tremendous amount of kinetic energy.
The exact moment the systems aboard the Dali failed could not have come at a worse time, it had - as far as I'm aware of the whole saga - just made a slight course correction to better line up with the bridge and the helm had not yet been brought back to neutral. After that it was just Newton taking over, without control I don't think there is much that would have stopped it.
This is a good plot of the trajectory of the vessel from the moment it went under way until the moment it impacted the bridge:
https://www.pilotonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/5HVqi...
You can clearly see the kink in the trajectory a few hundred meters before it hit the bridge.
amelius
3 months ago
Perhaps, but you can also build redundancy into the bridge.
jacquesm
3 months ago
You can, if you're prepared to pay for it. You could halt shipping while people are working on the bridge. You could make tunnels instead of bridges.
The question is simple: who will pay for it? Apparently we are ok with this kind of risk, if we weren't we would not be doing this at all.
There is a similar thing going on in my country with respect to railway crossings. Every year people die on railway crossings. But it took for a carriage full of toddlers to be hit by a train before the sentiment switched from 'well, they had it coming' to 'hm, maybe we should do something about this'. People don't like to pay for risks they see as small or that they perceive as that they're never going to affect them.
This never was about technology, it always was about financing. Financing for proper regulatory tech oversight (which is vastly understaffed) on the merchant marine fleet, funding for better infrastructure, funding for (mandatory) tug assistance for vessels of this size near sensitive structures, funding for better educated and more capable crew and so on. The loose wire is just a consequence of a whole raft of failures that have nothing to do with a label shroud preventing a wire from making proper contact.
The 'root cause' here isn't really the true root cause, it is just the point at which technology begins and administration ends.
ninju
3 months ago
Too build "a redundancy into the bridge" to survive such a overwhelming force would be a very expensive endeavor.
Better to spend the effort in fleet education
gosub100
3 months ago
It's a tangent but I don't understand why the dock workers can unionize and earn livable wages but the crew cannot.
padjo
3 months ago
The dock can’t move to a jurisdiction that is less union friendly.
gosub100
3 months ago
The crew could go on strike and cause a comparable amount of disruption to the supply chain as dock workers.
themaninthedark
3 months ago
They do have a union: https://www.seafarers.org/
At least on US flagged vessels.
Sometimes when I see vocal but rather uninformed opposition to the Jones Act, I wonder if it isn't partially an aim at union busting.
hylaride
3 months ago
IIRC the biggest issue with the jones act is the supply of US-built vessels, which are expensive, the current fleet is aging and, outside of defence, there's no real domestic shipbuilding industry anymore. This also means that domestic shipping (especially to populated areas that are not part of the lower 48) can't use anywhere near as much in the way of modern containers. This is anecdotal, but I've heard that people in Puerto Rico and Hawaii routinely order stuff from foreign countries as even with duties, it can be cheaper than ordering it from the mainland.
The act is problematic because it hasn't really been modernized, with the handful of revisions essentially just expanding its scope. The US either has to seriously figure out getting domestic shipbuilding going again (to the point where it can be economical to also export them) or at least whitelist foreign countries (eg South Korea) to allow their ships to be used. But that's unlikely in today's political climate.
jordanb
3 months ago
The US government used to provide differential subsidies for cargos shipped on US flagged ships. This ensured that US shipping was competitive with the bottom dollar global shippers, at least for some cargos.
This ended under Reagan.
At first lots of people didn't care because Reagan was also doing his 600 ship navy so everyone was busy doing navy work, but after that ended the MM and american shipbuilding entered a death spiral.
Now the only work US flagged vessels can get is supporting the navy, and a tiny sliver of jones act trade. This means there are no economies of scale. If a ship is built, one is built to that class not 10. Orders are highly intermittent and there is no ability to build up a skilled workforce in efficient serial production. On the seagoing side, ships either get run ragged on aggressive schedules (ex: El Faro) or they sit in layup for long stretches rusting away.
If the US wants to fix its merchant marine it needs to provide incentive for increased cargos and increased shipbuilding. As Sal points out, the US is the second-biggest shipowning country in the world. US business like owning ships, they just don't want to fly the American flag because their incentives are towards offshoring.
hylaride
3 months ago
The incentives are also all over the place. The shipping industry uses a lot of labour from "poor" countries, but on bulk shipping the labour costs are often a rounding error. The main issue is, of course, working conditions. Americans don't want to sit on a freighter for 6 month tours away from their families. The US navy has a hard enough problem doing it for people in their early 20s, and even then that's usually to get access to education funding. People from the Philippines will do it because it is life-changing amounts of money and the alternative is abject poverty.
themaninthedark
3 months ago
It is usually 3 month tours, twice a year. So 3 months out, 3 months at home. Repeat.
>"Americans don't want to...." This phrase needs to die. Americans(or any population) are not some sort of monolithic group that can only do some small subset of work.
"There are approximately 5,600 container ships operating worldwide as of early 2023"(from DuckDuckgo AI). Assuming a crew of 10 per ship; 56,000 people total are required.
"As of August 2025, the civilian labor force is approximately 171 million people."(from DuckDuckgo AI)
So to fully staff the WORLDWIDE fleet with Americans, it would take 0.03% of the labor population. This is a vanishingly small amount and since labor cost is as you say a rounding error, if it offered a competitive pay I am sure that there would be enough takers.
jordanb
3 months ago
> Americans don't want to sit on a freighter for 6 month tours away from their families
And yet finding crews was never a problem before differential subsidies ended.
In fact crewing US flagged is harder now because the work is intermittent. If people can't find berths they time out on their licenses and go do something else in a different industry.
> People from the Philippines will do it because it is life-changing amounts of money
The international minimum wage for seafarers is about $700/mo. In comparison wages in the Philippines are between 20k-50k pesos a month or $340-$850. Seafaring is an above-average income job in the Philippines but not "life-changing."
lesuorac
3 months ago
IIUC, the only issue with the jones act requiring US-built vessels is that previous the US Navy used to buy US-built vessels and lease them out below-cost and don't do that anymore. It was never economically to use US-built vessels but we've stoped subsidizing it anymore.
jordanb
3 months ago
The US navy did not. The US Treasury used to provide "differential subsidies" to allow US flagged vessels the ability to win cargos in international trade versus non-us flagged vessels with lower operating costs.
renhanxue
3 months ago
The fuel pump not automatically restarting on power loss may actually have been an intentional safety feature to prevent scenarios like pumping fuel into a fire in or around the generators. Still part of the Swiss cheese model, of course.
crote
3 months ago
It wasn't. They were feeding generators 1 & 2 with the pump intended for flushing the lines while switching between different fuel types.
The regular fuel pumps were set up to automatically restart, which is why a set of them came online to feed generator 3 (which automatically spinned up after 1 & 2 failed, and wasn't tied to the fuel-line-flushing pump) after the second blackout.
ChrisMarshallNY
3 months ago
I have found that 99% of all network problems are bad wires.
I remember that the IT guys at my old company, used to immediately throw out every ethernet cable, and replace them with ones right out of the bag; first thing.
But these ships tend to be houses of cards. They are not taken care of properly, and run on a shoestring budget. Many of them look like floating wrecks.
gerdesj
3 months ago
If I see a RJ45 plug with a broken locking thingie, or bare wires (not just bare copper - any internal wire), I chop the plug off.
If I come across a CATx (solid core) cable being used as a really long patch lead then I lose my shit or perhaps get a backbox and face plate and modules out along with a POST tool.
I don't look after floating fires.
yabones
3 months ago
Chopping the plug is a very good idea, everybody should practice that.
I once had a recurring problem with patch cables between workstations and drops going bad, four or five in one area that had never had that failure rate before. Turns out, every time I replaced one somebody else would grab the "perfectly good" patch cable from the trash can beside my desk. God knows why people felt compelled to do that when they already had perfectly good wires, maybe they thought because it was a different colour it would make their PC faster... So, now every time I throw out a cable that I know to be defective, I always pop the ends off. No more "mystery" problems.
bell-cot
3 months ago
I'd be so tempted to find a source for shiny-looking Cat 3 (10Mbit/sec) patch cables, and start seeding my trash can with those...
pantalaimon
3 months ago
> RJ45 plug with a broken locking thingi
You can get replacement clips for those for a quick repair.
https://www.amazon.com/Construct-Pro-RJ-45-Repair-Cat5e/dp/B...
esafak
3 months ago
Then you kill the visual signal; that the cable might have been yanked and potentially loose.
jmonty900
3 months ago
I recently had a home network outage. The last thing I tested was the in-wall wiring because I just didn't think that would be the cause. It was. Wiring fails!
HeyLaughingBoy
3 months ago
I remember a customer support call where the hardware they bought from us wasn't working. The last question I asked was "are you sure that the outlet it's plugged into is working?"
It wasn't.
ChrisMarshallNY
3 months ago
That's sort of the joke behind this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn2FB1P_Mn8
nrhrjrjrjtntbt
3 months ago
Oh yeah had outages recently. Turned out to be corroded connector to box in the street. Not a wire per-se but close.
potato3732842
3 months ago
If I had a nickle for every time someone clobbered some critical connectivity with an ill-advised switch configuration I wouldn't have to work for a living.
And the physical layer issues I do see are related to ham fisted people doing unrelated work in the cage.
Actual failures are pretty damn rare.
leoedin
3 months ago
That's true for almost all electronics. I worked on robotic arms for a few years - if things broke it was always the wiring (well, to be precise - the connectors).
sitkack
3 months ago
The ship was 10 years old, not some WW2 hulk.
kfarr
3 months ago
Another case study to add to the maritime chapter of this timeless classic: https://www.amazon.com/Normal-Accidents-Living-High-Risk-Tec...
Like you said (and illustrated well in the book) it's never just 1 thing, these incidents happen when multiple systems interact and often reflect a the disinvestment in comprehensive safety schemes.
lostlogin
3 months ago
Shipping, accidents and timeless classics.
I was sure you were going to link to Clarke and Dawe, The Front Fell off.
rolph
3 months ago
ive been in an environment like that.
"nuisance" issues like that are deferred bcz they are not really causing a problem, so maintenance spends time on problems with things that make money, rather than what some consider spit n polish on things that have no prior failures.
hylaride
3 months ago
Tragically, it's the same with modern software development and the growth of technical debt.
FridayoLeary
3 months ago
Just insane how much criminal negligence went on. Even boeing hardly comes close. What needs to change is obviously a major review of how ships are allowed to operate near bridges and other infrastructure. And far stricter safety standards like aircraft face.
pstuart
3 months ago
Hopefully the lesson from this will be received by operators: it's way cheaper to invest in personnel, training, and maintenance than to let the shit hit the fan.
stackskipton
3 months ago
Why? It's cost them 100M (https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/us-reaches-settlemen...) but rebuilding the bridge is going to be 5.2Billion so if gundecking all this maintenance for 20+ years has saved more then 100M, they will do it again.
xp84
3 months ago
From your article - this answered a question I had:
> The settlement does not include any damages for the reconstruction of the Francis Scott Key Bridge. The State of Maryland built, owned, maintained, and operated the bridge, and attorneys on the state’s behalf filed their own claim for those damages. Pursuant to the governing regulation, funds recovered by the State of Maryland for reconstruction of the bridge will be used to reduce the project costs paid for in the first instance by federal tax dollars.
Barbing
3 months ago
So was the bridge self-insured?
lazide
3 months ago
Actually, to be even more cynical….
If everyone saved $100M by doing this and it only cost one shipper $100M, then of course everyone else would do it and just hope they aren’t the one who has bad enough luck to hit the bridge.
And statistically, almost all of them will be okay!
sitkack
3 months ago
This is the calculus that shows why our current civilization is unlikely to pass the filter.
lazide
3 months ago
Making the calculus apparent is why we might have a chance.
Because then anyone who owns a bridge/needs to pay for said bridge damage goes, ‘well clearly the costs of running into a bridge on the runs-into-bridges-due-to-negligence-group isn’t high enough, so we need to either create more rules and inspections, or increase the penalties, or find a way to stop these folks from breaking our bridges, or the like - and actually enforce them’.
It’s why airplanes are so safe to fly on, despite all the same financial incentives. If you don’t comply with regulators, you’ll be fined all to hell or flat out forbidden from doing business. And that is enforced.
And the regulators take it all very seriously.
Ships are mostly given a free pass (except passenger liners, ferries, and hazmat carrying ships) because the typical situation if the owner screws up is ‘loses their asset and the assets of anyone who trusted them’, which is a more socially acceptable self correcting problem than ‘kills hundreds of innocent people who were voters and will have families crying, gnashing their teeth, and pointing fingers on live TV about all this’.
stevenjgarner
3 months ago
Isn't there a big liability insurance payout on this towards the 5.2 Billion, and if so won't the insurer be more motivated to mandate compliance?
nothercastle
3 months ago
Yes the insurer will likely be able to charge more.
toast0
3 months ago
The vessel owner may possibly be able to recover some of that from the manufacturer, as the wiring was almost certainly a manufacturing error, and maybe some of the configurations that continued the blackout were manufacturer choices as well.
potato3732842
3 months ago
At the end of the day we all just pay for it in terms of insurance costs priced into our goods.
genter
3 months ago
But it's important to "punish" (via punitive fines) the right people, so that they will put some effort into not making that mistake again.
usefulcat
3 months ago
What would be a better solution?
potato3732842
3 months ago
Well the current way involves paying for a bunch of non-value producing busy work by insurers, lawyers and a ton of expert parties relevant to the litigation process.
There's probably some combination of "everyone just posts up a bond into a fund to cover this stuff" plus a really high deductible on payout that basically deletes all those expensive man hours without causing any increased incentive for carnage.
Events like these are a VERY rare exception compared to all the shipping activities that go on in an uneventful manner. Doesn't take a genius to do the napkin math here. Whatever the solution is probably ought to try to avoid expending resources in the base case where everything is fine.
mjevans
3 months ago
Regulations to require work is done correctly the first time. Also inspections.
I like a government that pays workers to look out for my safety.
cco
3 months ago
A punishment that was felt by decision makers but was unable to be offloaded as a cost to the public, except maybe in the form of rent. Prison :)
DANmode
3 months ago
Informed consumers who actually walk, ever.
dv_dt
3 months ago
I imagine every vessel has its own corporation that owns it which would declare insolvency if this kind of thing happens
nothercastle
3 months ago
It’s not thought. These situations are extremely rare. When they happen it just close the company and shed liability.
dv_dt
3 months ago
Yup, nobody wants to admit that regulations and inspections are a reasonable solution
xp84
3 months ago
Would any inspection regime be able to inspect both ends of every single wire on every ship that ever enters our territorial waters? Every wire? And how often do they need to redo that inspection, as one could be pulled out?
dv_dt
3 months ago
As proposed this is a strawman standard.
xp84
3 months ago
Not sure I understand. If they’re proposing a less exhaustive inspection standard it wouldn’t have done anything to avert this incident or similar ones.
dv_dt
2 months ago
On the contrary, perhaps the cause was down to a single failed wire, but multiple other safety layers were bypassed in this overall failure. A regulatory scheme that would have enforced and caught a single one of those layers would have prevented this event. It's why the term swiss cheese model of safety is discussed. Only when the events line up holes though multiple layers of swiss cheese should an actual catastrophe occur.
creeble
3 months ago
I watched Sal's video yesterday, great summary.
So much complexity, plenty of redundancy, but not enough adherence to important rules.
Nifty3929
3 months ago
All you said is true - but these investigations are often used for the purpose of determining financial liability and often that comes down to figuring out that one, immediate, proximate thing that caused the accident.
A whole bunch of things might have gone wrong, but if only you hadn't done/not-done that one thing, we'd all be fine. So it's all your fault!
_n_b_
3 months ago
Respectfully, have you ever actually read an NTSB report? They're incredibly thorough and consider both causes and contributing factors through a number of lenses with an exclusive focus on preventing accidents from occurring.
Also, they're basically inadmissible in court [49 U.S.C.§1154(b)] so are useless for determining financial liability.
user
3 months ago
p3rls
3 months ago
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