Everyone knows your location, Part 2: try it yourself and share the results

236 pointsposted 3 days ago
by mtlynch

54 Comments

ebfe1

16 hours ago

Not exactly related but on the topic of finding target's location, A few years ago i used to run a little demo of capturing probe wifi ssid network on prefered network list of nearby devices and used https://wigle.net/ to identify places that people has visited... it was eye opening for some people in the audience for sure.

thenthenthen

an hour ago

That sounds like a super fun demo to do live! I have seen people om social media post their funny ssids around their house…please do not.

az09mugen

9 hours ago

Wow, the map gives a good insight of where "technological humans" are concentrated.

yapyap

6 hours ago

or where people are actually recording wifi networksk, wigle is kept up to date by volunteers

xattt

5 hours ago

Complete dead zone in my area, even though the wifi SSIDs are saturated.

3abiton

10 hours ago

I know this topics comes up ever so often here, but this is really amazing demo. A reminder that on Android you can use tools like XPL-EX (previously XprivacyLua) to heavily block such calls and libraries, or something simpler even like something like [App Manager](https://muntashirakon.github.io/AppManager/).

schrectacular

4 hours ago

Could you share a bit on how to identify and block offenders with AppManager?

ddxv

15 hours ago

I have something similar:

https://appgoblin.info which let's you see trackers installed on mobile apps and an Android app that lets you see those on your phone.

I'm working on automating a flow similar to the OPs but with an emulator so it can run on a server, but it's pretty difficult.

If anyone has advice I'd love to hear it. My biggest problem is how finnicky getting the rooted emulator plus apps is.

My current flow for mitm and waydroid is here: https://github.com/ddxv/mobile-network-traffic

Hope anyone has some advice!

Edit: just want to mention that the OPs flow is definitely better for capturing real data and endpoints, but I didn't see how I could automate it?

0x008

12 hours ago

We all kind of know this is true, but it’s always really eyeopening to see to what extent these companies know everything about us.

Even worse is, I think, that somehow they are allowed to sell all the data and that you can basically buy data about everybody easily online[1]

[1]: https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-databroker-files-wie-uns-apps-un...

thenthenthen

an hour ago

Ah there was a great talk at CCC (actually 2) about a guy tracking Germany’s politicians, they deducted crazy relations from publicly available data iirc. I cannot find the talk right now sadly. Was it in German?

yapyap

5 hours ago

> We all kind of know this is true, but it’s always really eyeopening to see to what extent these companies know everything about us.

I agree, if you have a Spotify account I implore you ( and anyone reading ) to download their Spotify data [1] and just look through it, it’s really interesting. I hear news about how big companies are collecting all our data and got kinda desensitized to just the news but to see it applied to you and your specific music experience is pretty eye (re-)opening.

1. https://support.spotify.com/us/article/data-rights-and-priva...

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2

5 hours ago

Could you elaborate a little further ( maybe not data itself, but its type and so on )? I don't have Spotify, but I am obviously fairly interested in the subject as a whole ( and that business model spread widely ).

morkalork

3 hours ago

Thanks! Giving it a try. I've been using Google's take out to download my Fitbit data already because the app is so shit these days. I wonder what else has these data dumps available.

tedunangst

15 minutes ago

Has anyone else actually tried it themselves?

lrvick

9 hours ago

You actually can opt out of this. Personally I have not had a cell phone subscription in ~5 years and only use cash IRL.

gruez

3 hours ago

You don't even need to go off the grid to "opt out". Unless you granted location permissions to those apps, all the "locations" that the apps are sending are most certainly from geoip databases. That's technically a "location", but not what most people would think of when you say "everyone knows your location". Denying location permissions to random flashlight apps, disabling cross-app identifiers in ios/Android, and using a VPN will provide the same amount of anonymity.

azinman2

3 hours ago

I would never trust a public VPN personally.

gruez

2 hours ago

It's either using a VPN, or having your real (ISP) IP address exposed. Self-hosting your VPN is actually worse, because you still are tunneling your traffic through a third party that could be monitoring it, and unlike with a public VPN you can't blend with other users.

stavros

9 hours ago

You can actually opt out of this. Vote for politicians that want to regulate this into illegality.

tirant

2 hours ago

Instead of making something illegal, that might be perfectly acceptable for someone else, why don’t take a personal decision to stop using those services altogether?

It’s very tempting to impose our own personal truths to everybody else’s via politics, but that’s a quite close approach to totalitarianism.

stavros

2 hours ago

Why would I stop using the services when I can use the law to keep using them without being tracked?

> It’s very tempting to impose our own personal truths to everybody else’s via politics, but that’s a quite close approach to totalitarianism.

"Regulation is totalitarianism" is a take that's too hot for me today.

lclc

6 hours ago

But then the government couldn't track you anymore with the help of those companies.

hulitu

7 hours ago

> You can actually opt out of this. Vote for politicians that want to regulate this into illegality.

The parliament has more than one politician and the advertising companies pay better. To opt out of it you need to put politicians in jail for conflict of interest and bribes and make campains against big tech (which could lead to your "suicide). Good luck with that.

xico

7 hours ago

Isn’t it what the EU is doing step by step to protect its citizens?

Politicians should be jailed, both on the legislative and executive side, including Presidents, if they ignore the law. France is showing this once again with hopeful Marine Le Pen and former president Sarkozy, together with dozens of their associates.

whobre

4 hours ago

There are no such politicians, and even if they were your vote does not matter.

bix6

5 hours ago

What do you do for work / how do you handle work or personal calls?

ghaff

3 hours ago

I would not happily give up my smartphone but, speaking for myself I get very few personal calls, and latterly, don’t know the last time I had a work call on my phone.

timsh

3 days ago

author here to answer any questions or discuss an app

jrmg

15 hours ago

On the question of “why do they collect all this data” - brightness, battery life, headphone usage, volume etc: It’s not just because the data is valuable in itself, it’s also to ‘fingerprint’ the device across IPFA boundaries and in the face of things like NAT and VPNs. There are so many disparate data points that are different across different devices that two apps reporting an identical or near-identical set in a short timeframe are likely on the same device.

elric

12 hours ago

How the hell is any of this tracking legal?

lrvick

9 hours ago

Because you and almost everyone else agreed to the Terms of Service where you consented to let them stalk you until they can make an accurate enough simulation of you to sell increased chances to change your behavior to the highest bidder.

You can stop at any time. Cancel your cell phone subscription and turn off your phone. It is a perfectly valid choice.

elric

9 hours ago

Uninformed consent is not consent. And while you may enjoy your life without a mobile subscription, many would not.

djeastm

7 hours ago

>Uninformed consent is not consent.

True, but a Terms of Service document is the vehicle by which you are informed and consenting. If you're not willing to read the information you're choosing to remain uninformed.

Etheryte

8 hours ago

This is not how the GDPR works, just because you stuff it in the ToS doesn't make it legal. Consent has to be explicit and freely given, using the service cannot hinge on accepting tracking.

hulitu

7 hours ago

> Because you and almost everyone else agreed to the Terms of Service where you consented to let them stalk you

Because some laws (GDPR) are only valid for some people.

boppo1

9 hours ago

No one took Stallman seriously in the early '00s cuz he looks like a total nerd.

api

5 hours ago

It’s also because good UI/UX is expensive, open source has never been able to do it, and people are lazy. If you are a person who likes messing with computers and figuring stuff out, you are weird. Most people loathe it. It was super easy for superior UX to capture users and herd them into surveillance ecosystems.

drob518

2 hours ago

He still looks like a nerd. I think it’s terminal.

doubled112

6 hours ago

Imagine living in the alternate universe where open source or privacy had a Jenny McCarthy.

anotherpaul

11 hours ago

I haven't gone through setting it up (yet) but I imagine there should be differences between EU and US versions of the apps. Is that something you expect to and if so, are you recording that info in your survey? Or am I just naive here?

timsh

3 hours ago

The difference should be only at the consent level, eg you might see less or more “Accept All” buttons with different design or different ToS linked. I don’t believe there’s a real difference on the code or even SDK level based on geo.

uticus

3 days ago

solid observations and good analysis! so, seems too obvious, are you truly in pioneer territory - nobody else is doing what you've done here?

timsh

3 days ago

I mean, there should be something! Maybe not with this exact list of apps, but the code should be similar to other "how-to-record-traffic" guides.

feydaykyn

a day ago

Many thanks for your eyes opening article!

Hopefully you have a third article on the making testing whether common privacy technics are effective ?

Teever

11 hours ago

Are you aware of any sousveillance projects with the goal of identifying and monitoring the people responsible for this tracking?

bix6

5 hours ago

Most of us need cellphones so are we just out of luck?

franga2000

4 hours ago

You need a cellphone, but you really don't much on it. Browser, email, a chat app or three, banking, navigation, public transport/parking. Most of these have good privacy-minded options or are usually not the biggest offenders. It's games, ecommerce, social media and such that do the most spying, and you can absolutely live without those apps.

2mlWQbCK

4 hours ago

Does turning off data (mobile+wifi) when not actually using any app help at all (on Android)? Will apps still be able to phone home in the background? Or will they just fill up a huge cache with data and bulk-transfer it the next time the phone is online?

Maybe at least disconnecting from the internet while not using it will make location tracking slightly more difficult?

ghaff

3 hours ago

Yes? I assume. If I’m international and am not using my US plan they’d better not be using my home plan in background and I’ve never seen any evidence they were.

bix6

3 hours ago

Is that true though? I know the banks sell my info to third parties.

I love games. Is there no way to safely block their network calls?

gruez

3 hours ago

>I love games. Is there no way to safely block their network calls?

Use a VPN?