ryandrake
2 days ago
How does one even expect to use €20M of physical paper cash? You're going to get scrutiny from the government and/or financial institutions if you try to deposit it into a bank. I guess you'd "launder" it somehow, but does that even work anymore? Major purchases with cash put a giant government bullseye on your back these days. That is if you could actually make those purchases. I'd imagine most major purchases that someone legitimate might make (like buying a house or a car or a private jet) cannot be done with physical cash. Does the local Mercedes dealership really accept a suitcase full of cash? Even if you were to use it for all of your normal routine spending like groceries, you'd never go through €20M in your entire lifetime. So, career-fraudsters, I ask: in case I ever get my hands on millions in cash, what is my plan for using it?
davidwritesbugs
a day ago
Convicted ex-money launderer here.
It's easy. Never dealt with €20M but the principle is scaleable, you smurf the money in ~€10k amounts through a network of trusted money mules. You buy a cash-only/mostly business like a car wash, take-away etc., rent half-a dozen shops and pump the cash through those, banks won't usually complain about cash coming in like this. €5k * 52 * {y stores}. There are entire areas of shops in some cities where no-one goes in but the business has a healthy turnover.
There are lots of other methods too but those are trade secrets. "I could tell you but" etc. Easy 'big bang' methods like houses Rolls-Royces and art no longer work easily in most jurisdictions (oddly, apparently still in Oz from other comments). I miss the days when you could walk ito a bank with a shopping bag full of bundles of notes, I've done that - fun.
adtac
a day ago
In your opinion, what fraction of the small restaurants in a typical city are engaging in money laundering at this scale? And if weighted by volume, what fraction?
davidwritesbugs
a day ago
I think it's not so much restaurants, as the setup and operation costs are higher, but countertop takeaways I think. I'm not aware of any data but I'd guess from conversations & experience it was just a fraction - single percents? But I have no clue really. For a good ML operation you need agility: easy quick and cheap to set up & teardown and move - hence takeaways, hand carwashes etc.
bigbones
a day ago
Money laundering conviction to tech worker sounds like a great story, I'm sure plenty more than just me would love to hear more about your background if you were willing to share.
davidwritesbugs
a day ago
They were sorta related, but I'm not saying more.
ajxs
2 days ago
Here in Australia real estate transactions aren't covered by the national AML/CTF act. You can currently buy Australian real estate with millions of dollars stuffed into a duffle bag, and the realtor you gave it to is under no obligation to report who they got it from. You'd still need to declare your real estate assets for taxation purposes though. Our government has been so slow to fix this problem. There are new rules coming into effect in 2026. Long overdue. I've heard estimates from people working on AML in the banking industry that around 15% of Australian real estate transactions involve some form of money laundering.
tim333
a day ago
In Spain that was basically the case till a decade or two ago. There was a big case "53 guilty in Spain corruption trial" which signalled a change https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/434384/53-guilty-in-Spa...
HnUser12
2 days ago
I'd assume the same way they collected that much cash. Illegal deals. You want to bribe someone? use cash. Buy something of high value, put low value on the books but pay the rest in tax free cash? This is pure guess work
potato3732842
2 days ago
You buy groceries and fake papers and a beater car registered to your fake identity. The point isn't to be rich. The point is that you can have a modest retirement while being off the grid. It's basically an insurance police that might let you have a life and freedom if the state wants to take those away, which of course is why the state goes so hard trying to prevent it.
I could live my whole life with cash easily if I rented instead of owned.
toast0
2 days ago
I dunno about Eurozone, but I bought some land from my US county recently, and they told me I could provide a cashier's check or come with about $50,000 in cash. I went ahead and paid my bank fees to get a cashier's check.
ano-ther
2 days ago
Good question. In Switzerland you could buy real estate with cash until very recently.
You could also open a front, say a barbershop or a restaurant, though convincing authorities you earned a million or more through that could be a stretch.
emmelaich
2 days ago
Can you not, still? It may be reportable under AML rules, but it's still possible?
ano-ther
a day ago
You are right and it seems I misread the media articles.
Wouldn’t recommend it to GP though because they asked about circumventing AML and this would catch the fraud chief from the article.
user
2 days ago
thenthenthen
2 days ago
Wall insulation?
CommanderData
2 days ago
The best person to ask would be the an good fraud chief. Maybe not this one though.
daveguy
2 days ago
And a good fraud chief probably isn't going to tell you what they're looking for. :)
chucksmash
2 days ago
Local dealerships will take cash but if you show up with enough of it (even a very large down payment amount), it's not uncommon that the person you try to give it to isn't sure they are allowed to accept it and will disappear to run it up the chain to get permission.
Waterluvian
2 days ago
Isn’t that why it ends up in a wall?
user
2 days ago
lupusreal
2 days ago
Go on lots of vacations, booking modest hotels within your legitimate means but then live it up going to all the expensive restaurants/etc you desire. Unless you've got somebody following you keeping track of what you do, nobody would figure it out.
You'll probably never get through 20M like this but you should have plenty of fun.
netcan
2 days ago
Become a high class escort, where legal. Very high class. Accept only cash.
hoppp
a day ago
I dont think people believe a man whore can make that sort of cash.
SilasX
2 days ago
What is that responding to? The problem is how to safely spend/clean that much cash. You're describing how to accumulate cash, which makes the problem (in the parent comment) harder.
rapnie
2 days ago
You can put money in the bank as legal income and pay your mortgage with that.
SilasX
2 days ago
If the idea is to claim to be an escort that only accepts cash, and then report already-possessed cash as income, while also depositing into a bank, then that could have been phrased more clearly. As it stands, it says to actually be as escort and get more money that you have to launder.
Plus, there has got to be more critical information -- left out of the comment -- on how to get such a scheme to work. I highly doubt that most countries have left a massive hole in their anti-money-laundering systems that allows a person to simply claim to have massive transactions in cash with no (or easily fakeable) documentation.
netcan
6 hours ago
You might have to do the deed occasionally, to sell the ruse. I never said this would be easy.
immibis
2 days ago
Plus, have fun convincing the authorities that you, a middle-aged man, are a high-class escort.
SilasX
a day ago
Haha there's an episode of Better Call Saul where nerdy, middle-aged Dan is noticed by the authorities as spending far more than he earns, and he explains it away as being an escort for rich fetishists who like seeing him sit on pies.
jknoepfler
2 days ago
The articles notes he laundered a portion of the money through crypto and business fraud.
Cthulhu_
2 days ago
I'd be happy just paying groceries with cash for the rest of my life tbh. Although I can imagine a lack of grocery shopping on anyone's bank account would be suspicious. But moving to a country where nobody knows you / nobody cares would be an option too. Of course, then you get the challenge of moving 20 million in cash abroad...
em-bee
2 days ago
why? i never pay with card except for online purchases. i withdraw cash from an ATM. pretty much my whole withdrawal history on my bank account is ATM, rent and utilities and almost nothing else.
ratrocket
2 days ago
I think the point you're replying to still stands, it's just moved "up" a level: If someone cared to look into the financial history of someone with no grocery store payments on their credit card (why are they looking into this person's spending history? Maybe because they're suspected of embezzling a lot of cash, I don't know!), found no credit card payments, looked further and found not enough ATM withdrawals to account for the amount of groceries the person presumably would've needed, the suspicion is still the same. The "investigators" just had to take it a step further.
I doubt the person you're replying to thinks not a single person in the world pays cash at the grocery store, but I think it's reasonable to think that a lot of people do use credit cards at the grocery store (for points/rewards OR for actual credit; not to mention the convenience of not needing to have the cash on hand).
ryandrake
2 days ago
Lack of data is also a data point, and could be considered suspicious if most "normal law abiding" profiles produce data. Imagine you're the IRS and you see 1,000 people living in the same neighborhood, with comparable lifestyle profiles. 999 of them report similar incomes and have similar banking/investment profiles, but 1 of them reports drastically lower income and has little-to-no banking presence. Who are you going to apply more scrutiny to? Not saying it's fair, but I know an outlier when I see one.
thraxil
a day ago
There's still quite a gap between "suspicious" and "probable cause". Just having a large amount of cash isn't by itself illegal. You could easily have enough cash to live on for quite a while having inherited it or earned it decades ago, etc.
marcheradiuju
a day ago
There is a gap, but in my country, the AML regime is concerned with the bar of "reasonable to suspect" rather than "probable cause". This is the only way you could catch any laundering of any sophistication.
potato3732842
2 days ago
What even is the goal of such a speculative dragnet based endeavor? Instilling fear?
Enough of those "one in a thousand" cases are going to be legitimate people with oddball reasons to do what they do, and the minority of those who shoot back will still be enough that you'll get your guys killed faster than you find real headline grabbing criminals. Sure you'll roll up a bunch of petty dealers (these will be most of the people who shoot back) and you'll slander all the innocents but this sort of big dick of the law dragnet based stuff isn't an effective use of resources. It makes two people hate you for every useful idiot it makes respect you.
Reminding everyone that none of this is voluntary and it all hinges on violence is highly counterproductive generally. If the goal is to get everyone to goose step in line and pay their taxes doing positive things to legitimize the government is a far better use of resources. Build a bridge or renovate a port or something.
gosub100
a day ago
The idea of paying cash doesn't hold up when you account for changes in the currency notes over time. What would you do with a suitcase full of 1990s hundred dollar notes? Eventually they go out of circulation and using them looks highly suspicious. A casino tried giving me one and I asked them to swap it.
dgfitz
2 days ago
I’d probably “dig it up from my backyard because I’m a newly minted metal detector hobbyist” or something. If the bills were marked though I think your point is solid, it’s hard to make bad money clean.
Find some millionaire to pay you your own money for a job or something, give them 10%? I guess you still need to launder the money somehow.
Now I want to know how people can turn illegal cash millions into clean laundered money in 2024.
vinni2
2 days ago
Ozarks
thaumasiotes
2 days ago
The TV show seemed fairly incoherent in its treatment of money laundering. They're explicit about the mechanics, sort of: the idea is that Marty shows up in a rural area with a big bag of cash and he needs to make it appear legitimate - and he does this by taking ownership stakes in local businesses. So far so good.
What you'd actually want, in that kind of setup, is to hand the active owner of the business you just partnered with a big bag of cash, see that distributed into the flow of legitimate income from the business, and then have it returned to you as dividends or whatever on your ownership stake.
But in the show, the goal is to then book a bunch of fake expenses against the business. So:
1. Purchase ownership stake in a hotel, for cash. The cash doesn't need to be legitimate. Money is transferred from you to the active owner.
2. Book fraudulent expenses for the hotel, making it look like it's spent a lot more money than it really has. No actual money changes hands anywhere.
3. Now you have a piddling amount of legitimate money from the hotel, and a big bag of illegitimate cash that you still haven't laundered.
We've skipped the step where you hand the owner some of your illegitimate cash under the table and then the owner gives it back to you above the table, which is the part of money laundering that launders the money. If you want to embezzle from a running business while making your expenses look like business expenses, you can just do that; you don't need to start with a pile of illegitimate cash.
defrost
2 days ago
The part they likely obfuscated for reasons of both brevity and not wishing to give a blueprint to wanna be criminals is also having a stake in the other businesses that invoice for the fake expenses.
eg: Your (say) hotel | bar falsely inflates customer income and then spends the illegitimate cash (supposedly from customers that don't exist) on rennovation works and "new" carpets, plumbing, etc that don't exist - the shell trades companies (carpentry, plumbing, labor hire) can report that money as legitimate washed income from the hotel.
There are a number of variations of this.
krisoft
2 days ago
I don’t understand the scheme you are describing. If you have a hotel/bar and you falsely inflate the customer income then you are done. The previously illegitimate cash is now legitimate.
Why would you want to complicate it more with the fake rennovation works? Especially when a hotel is so much easier. You can just put fake guests on the book. (Or report longer stays for your real guests.)
With the renovation business you have to somehow cook up bills for the “new” materials and the workforce. So many more things the authorities could check there and thus so many more chances to slip up and get caught.
defrost
2 days ago
Without getting into the nitty gritty of trace back forensic accounting the added layer is akin to why people use proxy relay's in networking, diffusing cash outwards through layered shell companies makes the origin point(s) less visibly "hot".
The ideal here is to have many injection points that can be inflated to a degree that doesn't quite raise suspicion .. and fewer collection filters (fake plumbing businesses, etc) that each 'charge' several injection points for non existant work and pool money that's invoiced and trackable (from hotel to plumber).
Also, as noted by SilasX in a peer comment the books for the fake work can include higher than normal payments for "supplies" to cartel owned suppliers .. yet another (fake but) documented trail to explain income and profits.
As the pooled money grows larger it's increasingly better documented.
It's literally a full time occupation to generate a mountainous pyramid of a paper trail to "explain" a million or so a week.
thaumasiotes
a day ago
> The ideal here is to have many injection points that can be inflated to a degree that doesn't quite raise suspicion .. and fewer collection filters (fake plumbing businesses, etc) that each 'charge' several injection points for non existant work and pool money that's invoiced and trackable (from hotel to plumber).
You might note that this scheme doesn't involve you owning the hotel to any degree. You only need to own the plumbing business. That's the opposite of the situation on the show.
defrost
a day ago
Control of the hotel is required - that's the cash business that fabricates fake customers and orders non existent repair and upgrade work.
The work is billed by fake (or better, partially fake) contractors who do no work but charge for time, labor and supplies.
It's a funnel with many cash casual customer locations inflate their intake and spend the excess on illusionary busywork "performed" by the next tier in the pyramid.
The entire paper tiger is controlled by the same entity .. who likely firewall and partition sections away (eg: the part that Marty did in Ozark (I read the synopsis) would be the cash flow in and a good number of lower level shell companies that he indirectly controlled) from each other and only are connected in a legal way to the upper layers that have documentation for their inputs from below.
thaumasiotes
a day ago
Control of the hotel is required in a sense. Ownership isn't. It's actually much better for you if you come to an informal agreement with the owner of the hotel than if you take a legal ownership stake.
dgfitz
2 days ago
Nah I get it. If 100% of a hotel clientele only ever pays in cash, are you really any better off?
thaumasiotes
a day ago
That's wrong on two points.
First, they haven't obfuscated that; it's not present at all.
Second, your first step is that your hotel falsely inflates customer income. Then you follow up with some pointless additional steps. But if you can falsely inflate customer income, your job as a money launderer is already done. There are no additional steps. Spending revenue from your company on spurious invoices from another company is how you'd pay a bribe, not launder money.
defrost
a day ago
What was the scale of total income per month to wash again?
You might want to dwell on the bookkeeping scale required to soak up that volume in a diffuse manner and then "legitimitely" consolidate that upwards.
thaumasiotes
a day ago
As I recall, the scale was eight million dollars in one month.
I'm with you that a sleepy rural hotel can't handle that.
However, charging fraudulent expenses to the same sleepy rural hotel can't fix that problem. (It aggravates it!) The hotel can't spend more money than it has. And if you can make it look like the hotel has enough money to suit your needs, your job is already done. Fake expenses don't help.
After a long time spent on various dramas related to this initial problem, the show addresses it by having Marty found a casino, which seems plausible.
SilasX
2 days ago
>Book fraudulent expenses for the hotel, making it look like it's spent a lot more money than it really has. No actual money changes hands anywhere.
As I understand the show, they were buying overpriced things from cartel-owned enterprises, and that step was getting the money laundered to the client.
thaumasiotes
a day ago
That would make sense, but I don't think it's ever mentioned.
It is specifically mentioned that Marty books expenses that he hasn't actually incurred, notionally buying things that he never receives, which will stand up to an audit much more poorly than "buying overpriced things from cartel-owned enterprises" would.
SilasX
a day ago
There’s the scene where Marty takes rooms at the Blue Cat Lodge off the market for renovations, against Rachel’s objections that he wait for the off season, suggesting real stuff is actually being done to them. Then later she confronts him over paying ridiculous prices related for said renovations. (Where she also threatens to report him.) His cartel contact Del is mentioned as running a construction and remodeling business.
thaumasiotes
13 hours ago
Yes, he does real renovations. But he notes to his wife that he's purchased X square feet of carpet at $Y per square foot, while accounting for it as XXX square feet at $YYY per foot. (Both figures much higher than the reality.)
The difference between $YYY and $Y is money that was claimed to change hands, but never did, and the difference between XXX and X is carpeting that Marty has recorded himself purchasing, but not actually purchased.
If he was buying the carpeting from a cartel-owned supplier, he'd just pay the inflated prices that he's so proud of booking without paying. Instead, he's buying real services from a real third party, and then booking fake expenses for unclear reasons.
SilasX
34 minutes ago
Hm, okay, you're right, that part doesn't make sense, I'll have to review it and get the context to see what they were trying to establish with that scene.
hoppp
2 days ago
Slowly. Just pay for everything with cash. You can even buy a house with it. Real estates will accept it.
pessimizer
2 days ago
Start a car rental company by buying a bunch of luxury cars. Drive two or three yourself, and let your friends and family drive them. Once the cash is clean, sell them and close the business.
All you need to do is make sure you have an actual phone number that someone can call to rent a car, and make sure your prices are outrageous. Give the job of answering the phone to your sister's kid, or your girlfriend.
teractiveodular
2 days ago
This is literally what our Fraud Chief did.
> "Part of the money Sánchez Gil amassed in recent years was laundered through the purchase of crypto-currencies and a large fleet of private hire vehicles registered in the name of one of his relatives"
sneak
2 days ago
I know lots of people who live very nice lives ($300-750k/year spend) using nothing but cash and never showing ID.
There are a million ways to convert it to crypto, and a million ways to convert crypto to many of the other things one might want to use: gift cards, airline miles, etc.
Same goes for gold. There are lots of shops in many countries that will buy gold for cash. Many countries still have hotels that accept cash.
You can pay for a surprising amount of things in cash. One friend of mine simply has a rich buddy buy his cars and insurance, and he gives him paper cash each year for the sum of payments+insurance.
Many landlords are happy to accept cash, especially if you are willing to pay a year in advance.
Why do you think someone with that much money would be driving a car that's titled and plated in their own name?
bagels
2 days ago
Can you name the top three ways to convert it in to crypto? I don't think there are literally one million ways.
washadjeffmad
2 days ago
This is one of those "if you don't already know" topics.
The feds cracked down on it earlier this year leading up to the election, but it's back.
bagels
a day ago
Why can't anyone say what it is?
tim333
a day ago
In most countries I think you'd need to know someone with crypto who could use the cash and do a swap. The website localbitcoins that used to sort that is closed. Cambodia has cash to crypto dealers on the street if you are over that way.
gosub100
a day ago
Get an auto dealers license and buy a bunch of used cars, one at a time in cash, and sell them for less than you paid. But not too cheap to get other dealers upset and report you.
yieldcrv
2 days ago
Very easy to launder 20M
Be a promotor or promotion company, sell VIP tables at big event or music festival for 20,000 euro each, 9 out of 10 clients don’t show up (because they don’t exist and you made them up)
Do it all summer, our economy is big enough to support this
Your money is now clean from selling VIP tables
Deposit cash, pay taxes, move on
jknoepfler
2 days ago
So the suggestion is that uh... the former fraud chief of the Spanish police... become a highly connected event promotor... with access to high profile clients who will actually spend 20,000 euro for a concert ticket... which we inexplicably demand and receive IN CASH... in exchange for VIP tables at high profile events that we magically have access to... while supplying 20,000 worth of services to the one VIP that did attend... and then repeat this how many times? While forging receipts for cash payments, which will sustain scrutiny from a cursory audit?
Is there a missing /s? Like this is neither easy nor a plausible way to get away with financial fraud.
dumah
2 days ago
“I ask: in case I ever get my hands on millions in cash, what is my plan for using it?”
The question wasn’t how the Spanish Anti-Fraud chief would launder.
A number of high-profile acts in the US have had managers convicted for this in connection with drug trafficking and other organized crime.
It’s absolutely plausible.
I’m not sure why you think a cursory audit would reveal that a cash receipt was forged.
AshamedCaptain
2 days ago
The actual truth is not very far from this. He actually had a cab / private ride company. Most of his rides were fake.
yieldcrv
2 days ago
How did it go from that to cocaine bust?
TAM?
yieldcrv
2 days ago
the answer was how to launder it, not how the fraud chief could launder it
but either way, the answer is yes, and yes, and no sarcasm
first, the investigation is never going to happen. but okay, lets play auditor
the auditor is like “wow you paid your taxes on time and properly, but I hate that you have made money, so lets check the receipts”
“hmmm, big cash, who are these clients?”
“What!? you didn't do KYC on a transaction of 20,000 euro cash, 1,000 times!? ah but the parties were in Luxembourg and Austria and Monaco where such cash transaction limits don't exist, well Monaco’s is 30,000 euro per transaction, sorry for the inconvenience, on behalf of the King of Spain I apologize for our hubris in thinking this had anything to do with our ridiculous AML regime”