samrus
18 hours ago
I think this analogy breaks down when considering that the agricultural revolution gave regular people more time to demand new things, but also more time to produce new things, and thus maintained or even increased their economic leverage
> My inability to produce food is economically almost irrelevant. What matters is that I can consume it, enjoy it, develop tastes for it, and devote my energies to other things.
What the author misses is that what mattered more was that people could now produce more things. People were free from manual labour to perform intellectual labour. But what do people do to produce things when intellectual labour is automated? And with emboddied AI, skilled manual labour too?
You need to produce things to be able to reap the fruits of economic progress. Thats what most working people did after the agricultural revolution. What will we produce in a post AI world? And if only the people who own AI will be able to produce things, then why would they give us any power or leverage in the economy?
reasonableklout
17 hours ago
I suspect the author would respond with some form of "displaced people without capital will take on roles in the relational economy, or as human liability for the robots." I agree the material leverage of such jobs seems radically diminished.
ElProlactin
16 hours ago
While somewhat controversial, a different perspective: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_affluent_society
Modern concepts of "work" and how we relate to work are quite new and it's just an assumption that we're "on the right path."
adventured
15 hours ago
Seems like an exceptionally silly premise that boils down to: affluence as a concept is relative.
Well of course it is.
ElProlactin
15 hours ago
You can focus on the word, but the substance is actually what I was more interested in.
Most people living today take it for granted that modern "work" is the way it is and the way it should be. Few people have the context of understanding that modern work, where you directly trade labor for money and money for the goods and services you need to live, and where your identity and social standing is largely based on your profession, is something only a minority of human beings have experienced.
In my experience, most people seem to treat human development as a one-way spear of progress. The dawn of agriculture, the industrial revolution, etc. are all just stops on a linear path that is the right path.
But maybe it's just a dead end. "Primitive" hunter-gatherer societies survived for way longer than our modern-day society has existed, and things aren't looking so promising for us right now.
bigbadfeline
3 hours ago
> In my experience, most people seem to treat human development as a one-way spear of progress. > But maybe it's just a dead end.
You're assuming "human development" is some dark force that controls humans but it's not controllable by them, I would describe this as a slightly amusing occultist belief.
Of course, the exact opposite is true, if humans fail to maintain the straight spear of progress it will be their fault and folly, because, objectively, it isn't even hard to maintain.
pvab3
12 hours ago
I'm sure that many aspects of work and specialization are as old as humanity itself. Don't you think there was one guy in the tribe who was really good at starting fires, one woman who knew where to find the good berries, one guy who was the best at fixing spears, and some people who weren't that good at anything so they just joined the effort wherever they were needed? You don't have to have a physical exchange of currency or a 40hr desk job for that to be true.
ElProlactin
11 hours ago
You can read up on hunter-gatherer societies if you're interested.
Labor and specialization are not unique to modern-day work. Both hunter-gatherer societies and our modern industrial society have labor and specialization. But they function in completely different ways.
Specialization in industrial society is much more complex whereas in hunter-gatherer societies it is generally based on age and gender. Hunter-gatherer societies are generally more egalitarian, there is more skill overlap between members of the group, expertise is leveraged in less formal and less institutionalized ways, learning is more distributed and knowledge is more likely to be treated as communal.
simonbarker87
14 hours ago
> Most people living today take it for granted that modern "work" is the way it is and the way it should be.
Which is understandable when the alternative is generally poverty.
ElProlactin
12 hours ago
My comment was clearly looking at the historical and anthropological context, and raising the philosophical question about whether modern work is ideal and ever was sustainable.
But if you want to have a less philosophical and more pragmatic discussion, I'd raise the issue of the billions of people who count themselves among the "working poor." For billions of people, modern work doesn't guarantee that you won't be poor.
simonbarker87
12 hours ago
Agreed, but so far the picture painted around mass AI adoption looks like it will make that situation worse not better. So until a viable alternative is produced people will be very concerned about loosing work.
ElProlactin
11 hours ago
People should consider the possibility that a viable alternative isn't coming, and that humanity is entering a very dark period (on multiple fronts) that there's no guarantee it will survive.
user
11 hours ago
pzski
13 hours ago
Article misses to mention that in past revolutions the potential value was in the people. With AI the potential value is inside objects (computers) so it is easier to control and centralize, easier than value in humans. No one said more advanced models in the future will be available to anyone. I feel like this revolution will go opposite way, we will go back to mercantillism or whatever.
AnimalMuppet
10 hours ago
Feudalism. Or worse.
dot42
17 hours ago
> And if only the people who own AI will be able to produce things, then why would they give us any power or leverage in the economy?
Nailed it! It’s a too powerful resource to be privately held.
akanet
17 hours ago
I think you did not read the post, or else missed its point entirely. VGR speaks directly to the induced demand of greater access to intelligence, namely, that people may redouble their efforts given that now so many more things are within reach with the aid of AI.
samrus
3 hours ago
I did read it. The question is will you have the aid of AI? If the means of production get decoupled from a human being, then will normal people even have the respurces to afford access to AI to be able to make things? How would you afford it? You cant produce anything of value to sell to anyone since AI can just male whatever your making
If AI keeps going the way the author thinks (which isnt guaranteed) then there will come a point where the productivity of those who can afford to have access to AI will start becoming infinitely more than those who do not, and then those without AI are locked in the permanent underclass. Not much is within your reach then
jongjong
16 hours ago
Surely it will also free people up to apply their intelligence (or stupidity) towards other things.
It's concerning because there is already way too much 'intelligence' in this society and most of it is used to propagate falsehoods, irrationality and to manipulate others in counter-productive ways. I hope AI educates people and doesn't merely steer them down deeper into their echo-chambers. That said, I also really hope that AI doesn't just bring everyone into alignment and agreement about ideas which aren't true. There are significant threats with both extremes.
latentsea
13 hours ago
> I hope AI educates people and doesn't merely steer them down deeper into their echo-chambers.
Honestly, it feels like there is exceptionally little incentive to learn anything deeply anymore because the payoff might never be there.
I know, I know, do it because you love it or you find it interesting. Sure, I will to the degree that I love it or find it interesting. But I find even the incentives on that have changed weirdly enough.
latentsea
13 hours ago
> What will we produce in a post AI world?
Sports games. Plays. Concerts. Sex work.
Take your pick.
lynx97
17 hours ago
Well, regarding manual labour. Putting aisde the "is working with AI drying out your brain" discussion... Quite frankly, even fast touch-typists like me will never outpace an LLM write a few obvious functions... Isn't that also more or less the same thing as being freed of manual labour. How much of the thinking/design process your outsource to your LLM is a totally different discussion. See vibe-coding vs "pair" programming. But all that aside, I very much feel like LLMs are pretty much saving me a lot of manual typing.
ehnto
16 hours ago
You could out-type other prompters though. Words Per Minute might end up back on my resume yet!
logicchains
17 hours ago
>But what do people do to produce things when intellectual labour is automated?
They do what AI can't do, entrepreneurialism, because AI doesn't have property rights. Like back to the 1800s when most Americans were self-employed, not working for large corporations, because corporate cog-in-the-machine work can be done better by AI. With AI it's far easier to run your own business than at any time in history.
chrystalkey
17 hours ago
Are you really arguing the singular benefit of being human that AI can't take away is a specific concept of law? And then say that running your business with AI is easier than ever? So if we are reduced to running our own business, and AI can do that pretty good, what do we do?
roenxi
16 hours ago
If he is that does seem like a reasonable claim. There is precedent in concepts like citizenship, for example. Property rights. Inheritance. A lot of things give people advantages purely because that is how the legal superstructure works without reference to any inherent imbalance in economic or social power.
chrystalkey
9 hours ago
Not really, no. The question is not what distinguishes us at some point in time in some scenario, but what AI cannot take away, and changing a few laws seems not too far fetched. Especially because the people in charge of AI do seem pretty unscrupulous and powerful to me, and there is no sign of that influence being reigned in.
lioeters
17 hours ago
> back to the 1800s when most Americans were self-employed
They were mainly wage employees and factory workers by the end of that century due to industrialization. And "AI" is the industrialization of intellectual work.
chii
17 hours ago
> far easier to run your own business than at any time in history.
But let me play the devil's advocate and argue the point: who will the business sell to, if most people are not in a position with wealth to spare to buy from your business?
samrus
3 hours ago
Its businesses all the way around
IndeanCondor
17 hours ago
... What do you believe 1800 America was like? Because it was govt backed credit sales, land grants and pre emption rights that gave the land to people. The "self employment" was subsistence agriculture on the granted land in the frontier. The land was granted by a mechanism very similar to the volkisch lebensraum.
Clearly a relevant and replicable analogy to AI making entrepreneurship easier /s
Your version of 1800s North America is a myth.
atleastoptimal
17 hours ago
150IQ comment