Republican data center support collapses locally when sites are in GOP counties

50 pointsposted 2 days ago
by SLHamlet

62 Comments

andsoitis

2 days ago

One solution is to put them in space, leaving more room and resources for humans and wildlife.

atmavatar

a day ago

Why not build underground structures?

Such structures would have better latency due to locality, they wouldn't be subject to transmission interference from weather, they'd be far more accessible for replacements/upgrades, and being underground naturally aids in cooling and noise suppression.

While it would be resource intensive to dig out the underground structure, I'd be surprised if it even came close to the resource expenditure required to launch all your computer hardware into stable orbit, not even accounting for the fact that the former is a one-time, up-front cost, while the latter would have to be re-done every time you replace hardware.

tzs

a day ago

Assuming they can solve the cooling problem, there are still major problems with space data center at the scale proponents talk about.

First, getting them up there.

Second, disposal of them when they reach end of life, which is about 5 years.

The difficulty with getting them up there is we currently don't have orbital rockets that don't cause tremendous damage to the upper stratosphere. It has been tolerable so far because we've only done about 7500 orbital launches over the history of spaceflight.

The more extreme plans, like Musk's for a million data centers in space, would require around 10000 launches to get them deployed and then as they age 2000 launches a year to replace old ones.

There is active research and development on rocket fuels that won't cause massive damage, so this problem may be surmountable.

Reentry at end of life is also a concern. As they burn up they deposit things in the upper stratosphere that we really don't want there. As with launches that's not been a problem yet because over the entire history of spaceflight there have only been about 10k satellites and rocket bodies that have reentered, plus about 25k small things like debris.

That would be around 200k per year under the million data center in space plan. I don't know if it is possible to build them so they don't cause problems on reentry.

Probably a better approach for now is to build them in places where large power generation projects are being built. Those projects are already adding new power transmission capacity to get the power to cities, and it should be fairly efficient to at the same time add massive fiber internet capacity along the same right of way used for the transmission lines.

kikoreis

a day ago

Space is pretty big. Where would you propose putting them and what will you do when a switch port fails?

This is an idea that is getting a lot of airtime but not sure if anyone practical minded thinks it is viable in the next 15 years.

bastawhiz

a day ago

As soon as we figure out how to build a practical and cost effective way to radiate megawatts of heat in a vacuum I'm sure we will!

Heat radiation by convection doesn't work great in a vacuum.

Avicebron

a day ago

Why don't we just put them where the people who want them live?

spwa4

17 hours ago

The answer to your and essentially every other comment in this thread is that you simply don't have much choice where to place datacenters.

1) You must have access to the core of the power grid, or a local very large power plant (that can't be near the end of its life), because elsewhere you can't get megawatts of power, never mind gigawatts

2) You need access to year-round flowing water (mostly because of regulations, or without regulations it would be possible to deal with the problem without access to a river)

3) You must have friendly government, banks, ... with realistic promises of staying stable for decades (because of the investment required) (this includes stable interest rates, and yes, despite Trump's best efforts, US is still on the top of the list here)

4) unless you're a hyperscaler that can pay for burying hundreds of miles of fiber, you need to be near crossing points of long-distance fiber links.

5) You must be within 10-50 milliseconds of what you're going to use them for (which, granted, is not much of a restriction in Europe, but it does mostly exclude places like, say, Africa, Australia or South America)

This means that even inside the US, the places where you can build a datacenter are small dots across the map, and there's only several hundred of them, not thousands. The only imho realistic way to make these things be located elsewhere would be to revisit the water regulations a year ago, because it's one of those things that doesn't really make sense anymore.

Terr_

a day ago

While that "solution" is, er, not strictly against the laws of physics, it still falls into the subcategory of "utterly insane", once one looks at the real tonnages and watts and dollars and engineering problems.

It was never a serious proposal, it's just some zillionaire's daydream about having their own Neuromancer-style space-station, a place where their word is law and their dynasty assured by a pet superintelligence.

The only "data-center in space" we're likely to see will be tiny low-power satellites, offering themselves as extraterritorial hosting (i.e. actual data, versus processing) for stuff like an oligarch's ill-gotten crypto-currency.

andsoitis

a day ago

You do realize that alphabet and amazon are also pursuing this, right?

Terr_

a day ago

No, they aren't, certainly not in a way which could "leave more room and resources for humans and wildlife."

Yeah, Jeff Bezos gives it some lip-service, but that's to promote Blue Origin as a company to launch rockets. Somebody will probably launch a symbolic little temporary thing to claim the prestige of "first datacenter in space".

But beyond that? Nobody's planning exaflops of compute in orbit, if they're sinking deep investment in satellites at all, it'll be for their classical role of relaying (or collecting) data.

andsoitis

a day ago

Ok, if you think Jeff Bezos is lying and Alphabet too, how about China: https://spacenews.com/china-backs-orbital-data-center-startu...

Timon3

a day ago

There is obvious strategic value in bringing some compute into orbit, since realistically such a DC can only be affected by a handful of potential actors. But putting anything more into orbit than a small strategic backup simply makes no sense.

If the issue was "leaving more room and resources for humans and wildlife", it would be much cheaper and easier to put DCs into the ocean. Yes, it's a hostile environment for such hardware, but it would still be much cheaper to handle all the downsides for the same amount of compute - including maintenance, which is currently economically impossible for DCs in orbit.

kikoreis

a day ago

Usually with these things people pursue a quasi impossible vision that ends up generating useful technological advances along the way. The funding will come from an ultra high risk R&D grade allocation and there will be someone in the supply chain that will benefit regardless of the final outcome. If you look at it from that angle then it is less surprising people around the planet will give it a go. Plus the mockup pictures look cool so free marketing and shocking headlines.

paulrenshaw

a day ago

this is the way!

one of the biggest threats to AI accelerationism longterm is the public rioting or foreign governments launching attacks against data centers

the plebians won't be able to burn the data centers if you put them in space though.

tEem21

a day ago

"Our researchers were so busy working out whether they could, noone stopped to wonder whether they should"

1970-01-01

a day ago

And yet no proof-of-concept has been attempted. Just another Elon saying at this point.

asdff

a day ago

There’s already datacenters in space though. Does starlink not count as a datacenter? What, their nodes are too small by modern standards? It is still a networked array of compute nodes, in space, currently operating.

1970-01-01

a day ago

No, a satellite is not a datacenter. The suffix is center. Example: A WAN is not a datacenter, it is a network.

asdff

a day ago

What is a datacenter? A series of compute nodes connected to eachother that happen to be in a warehouse for pragmatic purposes. I don't see how the starlink array is very different than that short of having them sit in some single structure. They are a connected array of compute nodes. That is basically a data center.

1970-01-01

a day ago

Yes, having them sit in a physical location together is the "C" in DC.

asdff

a day ago

Semantic arguments, not technical ones.

1970-01-01

a day ago

The tech argument is the bottom layer, the physical layer, does not exist.

asdff

a day ago

Does not exist? It is currently physically in orbit performing various compute jobs.

cyanydeez

a day ago

Another solution is to pray to the sun god for the wisdom of the universe.

vjvjvjvjghv

a day ago

If space doesn't work or is deemed too expensive put them right next to the house where the CEO of the company and his family live. Same with nuclear plants, rocket launch sites and chemical plants.

andsoitis

a day ago

Your suggestion to put industrial sites like nuclear plants, rocket launch sites, and chemical plants next to people is not a good idea.

vjvjvjvjghv

a day ago

A lot of these plants are built next to people. Just not next to the people who make the decision where to put them. Look up “cancer alley”.

stronglikedan

a day ago

The article seems to be confusing Republicans with people in GOP counties. Republicans are politicians, and just like Democrats, they're only in it for the special interest groups that bribe them, while being completely out of touch with their constituents.

legitster

a day ago

The title is extremely misleading. Local support collapses almost identically regardless of party affiliation.

This is more indicative of the general NIMBY effect.

ModernMech

a day ago

The current Republican President and his administration are presenting opposition of data centers as a hoax perpetrated by political enemies and/or China to cripple America’s ability to compete in AI. It’s important to know that his own voters disagree with that.

stronglikedan

a day ago

Still nothing to do with party affiliation. Voters disagree with the vast majority of what politicians in Washington want, regardless of party.

ModernMech

a day ago

The point isn’t about party affiliation, the point is that the administration is lying.

tbojanin

a day ago

what are the pros and cons of having a data center in your county? and does it actually change residents day to day lives in any noticeable way?

downrightmike

a day ago

Data centers are only going up near populations because the DCs want the community to pay for all the infrastructure upgrades and higher rates.

If the DCs had to go it alone, wait who are we kidding? They never even thought of that path, it's all about how to push the costs on to locals. They want all the freebies they can get.

They bring nothing to the table

jmuguy

a day ago

Depends on the datacenter. If SpaceX etc weren't intent on cutting corners with illegal natural gas generators and trying to trick locals there wouldn't be any push back. Its not like we started building these things in the last couple of years. I've been to plenty of data centers that no one even knew were data centers because they weren't the size of Manhattan and spewing out tons of noise pollution.

_doctor_love

2 days ago

People aren't "Republicans" or "Democrats" or whatever. They're people. Of course "Republican support" collapses in communities once you start asking people what they want.

[EDIT: damn. y'all in the comments. whoosh]

vjvjvjvjghv

a day ago

"People aren't "Republicans" or "Democrats" "

You would wish but it's way too prevalent to call oneself "Republican" or "Democrat" and promise lifetime loyalty. Take almost anything they are mad about when the "other" side does it and ask how they'd feel if "their" side did it.

_doctor_love

a day ago

> it's way too prevalent to call oneself "Republican" or "Democrat" and promise lifetime loyalty.

Where?!? I have travelled all over the USA and I have never a met a person like this.

vjvjvjvjghv

a day ago

I don’t know what people you are meeting in what context but it’s quite common.

unethical_ban

a day ago

Both my parents are/were this way for Republicans. They don't care about the sexual assaults, the destruction of the government, or the billions of dollars of corrupt money heading to the president and his cabinet. Or worse, he outright calls me a liar when I inform him of the facts.

He can say billionaires are unethical ipso facto, that the poor shouldn't die from lack of healthcare, and that corruption is bad. But then say he has no choice but to vote Republican because "Democrats are worse" and "they want to turn boys into girls.". He thinks Fox News is too liberal.

They certainly exist, and in great numbers, if there aren't 75 Democratic senators and 300+ Democratic House reps by 2028.

antisthenes

a day ago

Coastal elites (in the USA) will gladly do this and let you know about it even if you never ask (like vegans).

I have some friend circles where upwards of 50% people do this.

To be fair it is far less prevalent outside of the US thank god.

vjvjvjvjghv

13 hours ago

Why are you mentioning "costal elites"? Go to some rural area in the middle of the country and you see the same.

mock-possum

a day ago

Careful about not believing people when they tell you what they are.

_doctor_love

a day ago

Your statement literally means nothing. It's not even making an argument.

The comment makes perfect sense, especially given the current political climate of the US and what Republicans are clearly indicating they want... Not sure what you are on about.

andsoitis

a day ago

People who get lumped into broad categories don’t all agree on all matters.

jsbisviewtiful

9 hours ago

Republicans have campaigned on discrimination, bigotry, sexism, establishing a dictatorship and punishing dissenters for the last 10~ years minimum - definitely longer than that considering the last century. If someone votes for a candidate campaigning on those things the voter is complicit in those things gaining strength. Stop writing off that behavior and hold them accountable for who they are clearly signaling they are.

Retric

a day ago

You’re rejecting people who self identified as Republicans for not being Republicans.

You can reject the category of Republicans in all situations or zero situations but doing so only some of the time is not a defensible position.

With respect it's also possible you are not as literate as you want to believe

Don't disregard what people tell you they will do because they are "just people"

Project 2025 been admitting their goals for years but they're just people they would never, right?

mock-possum

21 hours ago

Sorry maybe I could have been more clear

It’s a trap to think you know better than other people who they ‘really’ are.

If somebody tells you they’re a Republican, it does no good to think smugly to yourself, “ah, but no one is really a Republican.”

The identity a person espouses is often essential to them.

user

2 days ago

[deleted]

freecodeio

2 days ago

only politicians are delusional enough to think people will support datacenters in their county

arjie

a day ago

Find this quite funny overall. In the end Loudoun and Santa Clara get cheap power and lower property taxes than otherwise because they host so many datacenters. It’s pretty good that local policy leads to such good outcomes for people. Huge fan of this structure.

The policy-outcome feedback loop should be tight. People rapidly adapt when that happens.

Fortunately site selection is still possible and construction teams are still well occupied. America’s fortunate to enter a period with such clean industry. Dropping the ball here would have been so foolish.

Readers would appreciate downvoters clarifying their displeasure or disagreement with the above.

plorkyeran

a day ago

Well, at the minimum "Santa Clara gets cheap power because they host so many data centers" reverses the causality. SVP was already cheaper than PG&E before data centers existed at all, and the decent data center buildout hasn't pushed prices down. Santa Clara property taxes are typical for the area.