jillesvangurp
3 hours ago
The complaint here is about lazy answers. But what about all the lazy questions?
What's the equivalent of "Google it yourself" these days? When you ask something of somebody, the expectation of the other side to drop everything and do work for you isn't always appropriate/balanced/appreciated.
The underlying problem here is that communication is hard; especially if it's not face to face. People can't read your mind or might not get the full context of your question.
Back in the day I learned the hard way that sending a long reply to an email just ensures the other side won't read it. You can't assume that you dealt with their request effectively that way. And that was when there was a lot of email to deal with. Lots of people demanding all sorts of things via email and creating more work for each other by sending more email.
I learned to 1) never reply instantly to low priority requests, 2) be very brief and clear, 3) that talking to people is almost always the better choice when you get tempted to write a long reply.
If you don't like the answers you are getting, maybe reflect on what you are asking, how reasonable that request really was, and how you communicated it. Maybe your question was entirely reasonable and the answer really inappropriately bad. If so, give feedback or talk to the person. But maybe the other side didn't get you. Or maybe they were busy and you are interrupting them. There can be all sorts of reasons why you aren't getting what you expected.
It all depends on the context of course. If you are delegating something to somebody that reports to you, you can just tell them off. But if the other side is a colleague, your boss, or a friend you have to be a bit more considerate.
setgree
an hour ago
I get questions about academic papers I've written from non-academics sometimes. It's fun, I like that people are reading. However, some of them are clearly written by AI. I typically answer anyway, but on my most recent, I appended at the end:
> P.S. I intuit, and Pangram agrees, that this last email was AI-generated (and apparently so was the first one, now that I checked). As general career advice, I wish to observe that learning to write emails unaided is an extremely valuable skill in the dual senses that 1) writing is thinking [0] and 2) many people who receive an email they believe to be AI-generated will not be interested in corresponding, even if you're asking good questions, which you are. It would be a shame for that to get in the way of your research goals.
A polite, generic response like this is reasonably low-effort -- you must draft it once -- and might really help someone. Who knows though.
[0] hyperlinked to https://www.nature.com/articles/s44222-025-00323-4
throwaway98797
an hour ago
it’s passive aggressive.
ultimately it’s better to not inform and start ignoring these people.
let natural selection work.
wpietri
an hour ago
Natural selection is demonstrably not working. It only takes one look at a newspaper to see that thoughtlessness and stupidity are doing better than ever.
I think the internet is pretty great, but it's a major factor in that rise in at least 3 ways:
* Previously, an important check on fools was social consequences. Now they have an endless supply of people to bother. Spammers were the first to exploit that, but now it's endemic.
* Algorithmic weighting toward the reaction-generating (versus, say thoughtful, measured, responsible, accurate, helpful, kind) has rewarded idiocy and awfulness with attention and money. We're all now living in a reality TV show.
* As those behaviors become a major percentage of what people, especially young people, see, they become normalized. Otherwise people think being a thoughtless jackass is just how to get by in the world.
We are strongly in need of firm politeness, of militant decency. Without it, things will get "naturally" worse.
joshred
an hour ago
What's passive about it?
rfrey
an hour ago
Furthermore, what's aggressive about it?
throwaway98797
24 minutes ago
don’t use ai when you write emails to me.
that’s direct and aggressive.
framing it as advice is the passive part.
jeltz
an hour ago
Yeah, I have started ignoring AI generated stuff.
setgree
an hour ago
What I wrote was neither passive nor aggressive. My telling you now that I think your response was ill-considered is also not passive aggressive, though it's arguably aggressive.
throwaway98797
18 minutes ago
this maybe a me issue
any kind of softness in language like “i’ll-considered” sounds so sterile that i sense hatred underneath. too much time in big companies.
more sharing a crazy person take on how different words can be interpreted counter to the intent.
Alien1Being
43 minutes ago
Mindlessly calling things passive aggressive, is nearly as bad as pasting AI slop. Start working on your language skills.
And yes, this comment is passive aggressive.
See the difference?
variaga
an hour ago
Directly telling someone that you have a problem with something they did and why you think it's a problem is not "passive aggressive" by any stretch of the definition.
stronglikedan
41 minutes ago
oh, the irony!
geysersam
40 minutes ago
Why is it passive aggressive?
throwaway98797
15 minutes ago
when people write me ai slop.
i either ignore. or if i trust them i just say “don’t use ai slop”.
anything softer is passive and morally judgy too.
i’m not here to tell them what’s globally right, only how i want them to interact with me.
prepend
40 minutes ago
> that talking to people is almost always the better choice when you get tempted to write a long reply.
I’ve heard this “conclusion” from many people over my career. I disagree as a general rule as much of my work is scientific and technical and long replies are more useful than talking as having things written down makes things reproducible and shareable.
I think long emails are bad ways to deliberate or debate or to collaboratively create. But they are great for communicating complex ideas to variable size audiences (ie, one person forwards to their team or files things off for later reference). Even better when accompanied to a link to a web version that can be revised with additional info later.
This really helps due to the async nature. Getting on the phone with someone and talking through an idea with them assumes both parties have time to do that. And is a silly suggestion when 5 people need to read something.
I find it more efficient to get a thoughtfully crafted email than a phone call that still will need to be followed up with an email to confirm all parties understand.
My, probably wrong, take is that the “talk, don’t write” people is based on their inability to logically think through, structure, and communicate their ideas and, instead, would rather connect directly and hope the solution emerges from a conversation.
starky
29 minutes ago
>The complaint here is about lazy answers. But what about all the lazy questions?
>What's the equivalent of "Google it yourself" these days? When you ask something of somebody, the expectation of the other side to drop everything and do work for you isn't always appropriate/balanced/appreciated.
One of the hardest things about taking on any sort of leadership role (even unofficially) is that you need to allow others to do things. It feels incredibly stupid when you have to ask someone to do something you are more than capable of doing better/faster than the other person, but if you did that all the time you wouldn't have time to do your other work. Sometimes that includes questions that seem lazy, but part of asking the question is for the other person to acknowledge that they have thought about it and/or to ensure you aren't stealing ownership from someone.
mhaberl
2 hours ago
> Back in the day I learned the hard way that sending a long reply to an email just ensures the other side won't read it. You can't assume that you dealt with their request effectively that way
Then I guess you didn't deal with much of the empty-headed-managment type much.
I learned a different lesson: Write a long email that took time to reason and write, precise and complete text.
You get a short reply that is a reply on a 1 sentence you wrote, twisted upside down ignoring completly the point that you had.
-- > never reply instantly to low priority requests
This is true 100% I would even say: "Never reply on anything instantly that is not an absolute emergency, ever"
chrisweekly
2 hours ago
> "Write a long email that took time to reason and write, precise and complete text."
Respectful hard disagree. Emails should be limited to five sentences. "I didn't have time to make a shorter reply" as an apology / disclaimer for rare exceptions. In virtually every case, anything longer belongs somewhere better than email (Slack, wiki / knowledgebase, docs site) or merits a realtime conversation. My PoV is shaped by over 20 years in the industry working at startups, SMBs and huge enterprises.
conductr
an hour ago
Hard disagree back. Email has multiple contexts when I would say that short form is ideal and should be the default but at times a thoroughly long form email is needed. Or, honestly, you just need to create a document at this point. It could be a slide deck or word/markdown/excel/etc (depends on context) and this should be in the email. But email is key.
My experience is that people search subject lines, conversations, dates, and generally traverse historical conversations much better in email than in chat or a fully external application. They won’t search Slack, or try but can’t find the conversation. They won’t remember it’s on a wiki, you’ll constantly be redirecting them to the url. If the file is attached to an email, sometimes they’ll resurface it from a year+ ago. I find that’s way more common than someone referring to a chat from even a month ago. Chats are semi ephemeral. I’ve used both Teams and Slack and feel neither has really changed the game in terms of how the entire user base of an org use the system, enabling the historical reference points and moving it out of a ephemeral state, so email remains a stalwart for archival purposes and helps provide maximum context after the fact (people tend to elaborate on their choices more when writing an email).
prepend
33 minutes ago
I’ve found that a two-prong approach works best.
Detail in the email, expect people to read it or fail. And include a reference to a wiki or some more detailed version that can be collaborated on and extended.
So the email isn’t the primary source, the wiki is (really some markdown in git). But the email is the thing that people organize and find over time.
john_strinlai
an hour ago
>anything longer belongs somewhere better than email (Slack, wiki / knowledgebase, docs site)
wiki/kb or docs site, sure, depending what the topic is. but... slack? for your long-form communications?
please email me your long stuff, don't slack it to me. email is perfectly fine for longer text when longer text is required. (opinion also shaped over a long time in various roles at companies of various size)
prepend
31 minutes ago
Oddly, I find the search in Slack, Teams, and Discord to be so horrible I don’t create any “knowledge there.” It’s like trying to write a paper on the telephone.
Anyone putting long form stuff into an IM system is taking the way of pain.
sixtyj
an hour ago
Mail is async by nature. Read them 2-3 times a day only (you don’t check mailbox 100 times a day :) and you get things done…
I prefer to reply to an e-mail immediately. Or never. If so than archive it or delete it.
If you don’t answer immediately, you carry it as opened mind window and probability to have your mind being unable to concentrate increases over time.
hliyan
33 minutes ago
Long ago, I heard this advice on some ancient management tape: "never let a piece of paper cross your desk twice". It stuck with me and I've got into the habit of immediately answering, archiving or on occasion setting a snooze timer (in GMail). If the recipient takes my promptness for granted, then I might adjust my policies for just that person. (Un)fortunately, it helps to be a manager -- then you can give feedback to people who don't read emails properly.
jillesvangurp
2 hours ago
> Then I guess you didn't deal with much of the empty-headed-managment type much.
I worked in a big multinational at the time ;-). So, yes. Mostly my direct managers were alright. Some were excellent even. But organizational politics and learning to read between the lines is part of working inside of big organizations.
> You get a short reply that is a reply on a 1 sentence you wrote, twisted upside down ignoring completly the point that you had.
Usually a clear sign that you are not communicating effectively. If it's important to you, you might want to figure out how to fix it. Talking is usually a good way.
the_af
an hour ago
> Usually a clear sign that you are not communicating effectively
Agreed. I learned that in emails, a multi-paragraph, multi-item text means the recipient will randomly reply to only one of the points (often the least important one). So an effective email will make a single point, in as brief a manner as possible.
andrewflnr
an hour ago
This defines "communicating effectively" in a way that it can't possibly cover a complex topic. Sometimes you need to communicate complex topics, so this definition is a failure. The problem remains that people refuse to do the reading required for their job.
jimmaswell
43 minutes ago
I wish this were simply a fireable offense and we were expected to read. These kind of people who act like reading 3 paragraphs is being asked to swallow glass make me blindingly mad. They should be unemployed.
nativeit
28 minutes ago
I’m usually very tolerant of others’ varying capacities, but 100% this. High-school level reading and comprehension shouldn’t be a hard ask for professionals.
john_strinlai
2 hours ago
>This is true 100% I would even say: "Never reply on anything instantly that is not an absolute emergency, ever"
you can shorten this to "never reply instantly", because an "absolute emergency" will never be communicated by email.
andy99
2 hours ago
What is the problem with replying instantly? If you can give a reply immediately why wouldn’t you? If it’s low priority work that takes time, sure, but a typical yes/no, I’m available at 5, whatever, why not just send it?
If you’ve already read the email it’s less efficient to come back to it later
john_strinlai
2 hours ago
i'm not a strict adherent to the rule, your question would be better aimed at jillesvangurp or mhaberl.
mainly i just wanted to stress that nothing in an email inbox is an "absolute emergency".
throwaway98797
an hour ago
it encourages back and forth.
it trains people to expect things.
boundaries.
catlifeonmars
an hour ago
Also, email delivery in general can be delayed for hours. It’s not common, but there are no delivery guarantees around email. You could reply immediately, and it could arrive in their inbox much later.
prepend
36 minutes ago
This doesn’t happen enough to me that I consider it.
pixl97
2 hours ago
When someones only contact with you is email, then that's how you'll get news of the emergency.
john_strinlai
2 hours ago
i can't think of a situation where both the following are true:
1) someone having an emergency needs to contact me specifically.
2) that someone only has my email, and no other possible way of contacting me (or someone else that can contact me).
thesuitonym
an hour ago
If it's an emergency, you should call 911, or your country's equivalent. If that is not appropriate, then it's not an emergency.
majewsky
an hour ago
> Hello 911, our auth service is down following a malformed config deployment.
"Emergency" is not the same as "emergency services".
thesuitonym
11 minutes ago
You're making my point exactly. Auth service being down is not an emergency.
john_strinlai
an hour ago
as i've gotten older, i've realized that an auth service being down does not fit my definition of emergency.
which is the point the parent commenter was making, if im not mistaken.
georgeecollins
37 minutes ago
Wow I felt this post and trust me I am never asking the question! I work in a job where people make "creative" proposals (we say pitches or decks) to me almost every day. The length and word count has exploded. I can't say for sure that it is AI in a case by case basis, but I often suspect it.
It used to be when I got something boring a person wrote I felt obligated to read it. Now I am not sure what to do.
dijksterhuis
38 minutes ago
> What's the equivalent of "Google it yourself" these days?
not mine, no license, only chinese language on the eventual page, but has the beginnings of something beautiful
OptionOfT
2 hours ago
Because part of the answer is learning people's experiences.
altcognito
2 hours ago
(I agree but would add...) They should ask for it if that's the case. Typically if you're asking in a forum, you ought to state the research you've done up front as not just a courtesy, but a clarification of what you've seen/tried. Otherwise, you can just look lazy.
john_strinlai
2 hours ago
>3) that talking to people is almost always the better choice when you get tempted to write a long reply.
indeed! but i would add (in corporate environments):
4) follow up your phone call/face-to-face chat with a brief email summary, so you have something in writing.
it has saved me countless times over my career.
prepend
30 minutes ago
I like to go straight to #4 and skip the phone call or face to face.
britches11
an hour ago
The bad PM on the other side does not have the same tools I do because they refuse to use the agents I've set up for them to ask questions about the codebase.
ccppurcell
2 hours ago
I've been saying "ask chatgpt" when I don't think I have anything more useful to add.
jklinger410
2 hours ago
Hey if you want to passive agressively send AI responses to people because you are disgruntled that they even asked and have decided you don't want to confront them directly, go for it.
But I think the point of the original author still stands, even in that context.
Forgeties79
2 hours ago
> what’s the equivalent of “google it yourself” these days?
Do you actually say that to people?
Edit: i’ve hit the comment limit per given time, but all I have to say is “what have you found so far?” And “Google it yourself” are radically different responses man. The former is far more reasonable, it shows you are willing to be helpful and is a productive question. The other is just rude and implies your time is too valuable as well as assumes they’ve done nothing to tackle the problem. If you actually say “Google it yourself” when people ask you a question that would be absolutely bizarre behavior.
rpdillon
2 hours ago
People are lazy as hell, and I've noticed it's getting worse. My old team called this "remote brain execution" (because we work with Bazel and they have something called RBE) where folks would just drop questions in Slack and just ask the team to solve it for them. We were taken aback by how little work people would do before doing this. We developed the phrase: "What have you tried so far?" to try and counteract this culture, but it was an uphill battle, people didn't seem to have shame in saying "Absolutely nothing. I just need to get my job done, and you're holding me up!"
prepend
27 minutes ago
I like to point people toward ESR’s “how to ask questions the smart way” [0] to new people as it takes some work to learn that questions are about investigations and collaboration, not tasking.
p_j_w
an hour ago
I try to give people a little leeway here, even if I get annoyed in the moment. I know that I myself have dropped a question in chat and continued to look elsewhere for the answer. It’s always a good idea to see if someone else has a quick answer to avoid spinning your wheels for hours looking in the wrong direction.
bluGill
an hour ago
In many cases someone else already knows the answer and your interruption of them is less time lost for the company than you looking up the answer.
simonra
10 minutes ago
Unless the organisation is on the brink of collapse there is valuable learning and understanding in honestly attempting the research. If nothing else one gets a bit more knowledge on how to research the topic, although some knowledge of the state of the field is hard to avoid if you're so new to it that it's resource intensive to research.
For the company it would probably pay off better (over time) to let the people who regularly get stuck after trying nothing spend some energy figuring out than what they get in return for shipping them to conferences.
dec0dedab0de
2 hours ago
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=do+people+say+google+it+yourself
Thanks for reminding me of lmgtfy. We used to say that all the time 20 years ago, and it was way politer than how the people older than us spoke. It took some getting used to, but I really miss the hilariously mean bluntness of the IT/tech world.
In retrospect, I think it was just a bunch of people who grew up breathing in leaded gas fumes, with undiagnosed mental disorders. But I miss it just the same.
darkstarsys
an hour ago
Yeah, came here to see if anyone still remembers lmgtfy. Back to the future, I guess!
zmgsabst
2 hours ago
Politely? — yes, all the time.
A frequent first question when a subordinate asks me for help:
“What have you found so far, searching for answers?”
AnimalMuppet
2 hours ago
"RTFM" was a common answer to an obvious question, back in the day.
If your question shows that you haven't done basic research, because your question would be answered by the most basic of research (like reading that entry in the manual), then you're wasting my time with your laziness. That might be regarded as deserving a bit of rudeness in the answer. (The exception is with someone who is so new that they don't even realize that there is a manual, but that should be very rare.)
I mean, hopefully I've grown up a bit, and grown more patient a bit, but I still understand why people reply that way.
yourapostasy
an hour ago
> If you are delegating something to somebody that reports to you, you can just tell them off.
Coaching someone on why the perspective of the receiver of their behavior works counter-purpose to their intent due to <undesired-behavior-of-theirs> has so far always gotten me more durable and thoughtful behavior modifications than telling them off. I generally reserve telling off someone for proven malicious behavior from malicious intent.
m3kw9
2 hours ago
Most times if we just google it, we'd have no conversation. Human interaction over.
bigfishrunning
14 minutes ago
If you're just copying and pasting to some chatbot, is it really human interaction anymore?
prepend
26 minutes ago
Minimizing human interaction is a feature not a bug.
bluGill
an hour ago
Google - even 20 years ago when they were good - is terrible. It often found something that looked good but was wrong in important ways. It often found things that were hard to understand.
There is still value in google first (even today with all the slop), but there is plenty of room for conversation after you have the background needed to understand the deep discussions that result after you have done some early research.
duskdozer
an hour ago
And? Why is a conversation needed?
ImPostingOnHN
2 hours ago
If you work for a company of more than 1 person, then helping and developing and mentoring your colleagues is part of your job, and a more important one than telling them to rtfm so you can spend those few minutes getting your own thing done.
A company isn't just a bunch of people isolating themselves and doing their best to not talk to each other.
bluGill
an hour ago
I always tell people "Here is the documentation, please tell me what is hard to understand so I can fix it". When someone is new on my team I tell them "here is our team documentation, your first task is to fix it so that the next person can follow the directions correctly".
That is I make the conversation not about them reading the manual, but about making it worth reading. There is a large amount of really bad documentation out there.
ImPostingOnHN
an hour ago
If your customers or colleagues are asking questions answered by your documentation, it's often a good sign your documentation has some challenges: dense; intimidating; inaccessible; or not easy to search for the specific information you want.
Take this valuable signal as a gift, letting you know there is an opportunity to improve the documentation. You could become known as a helpful person, rather than a maybe-efficient, antisocial loner.
If your documentation is generated (by script, tool, or AI), rather than written by a person, this goes double.
prepend
21 minutes ago
> good sign your documentation has some challenges: dense; intimidating; inaccessible; or not easy to search for the specific information you want
Of course it does. And it’s not “my documentation” it’s ours. And everyone is responsible for improving it. It’s not about pointing out that documentation sucks, it’s about working to improve it.
I don’t have a documentarian on my team. No one’s main job is to write docs. So we all get to help each other by gradually improving the docs. And if I help someone with something not in the docs then the recipient gets to include that missing info into the docs to help the next person.
We also added a hat for a rotating role called “Benevolent Documentation Czar for the Quarter” where that person gets to explicitly improve team docs. Maybe like 5% of their time.
bluGill
an hour ago
Most of the problem is people don't know to look for it and so don't try. By asking them to help improve it that means I'm not shaming them for not looking at it and so they are more likely to read it. Also once in a while I get useful suggestions for improvement and so my documentation is now the best on the project, perhaps company (this is a very low bar)
elmo-shrugged
2 hours ago
if they didn't rtfm they are not being respectful of your time. unless you are literally first-day brand new, you should not be approaching a mentor for help getting unstuck without an answer ready for "what have you tried?"
ImPostingOnHN
an hour ago
> if they didn't rtfm they are not being respectful of your time
Yes they are. "RTFM" may be an angsty insult thrown around in some toxic open source projects, but it's rude and inappropriate for an actual working environment where you're supposed to (and being paid to) help others. Most time spent at a company at a normal job is collaborating with others.
Your time is not so valuable that you cannot use it to make other people and the company successful, and when you're on the clock, that time belongs to the company anyways, who would likely prefer you do what's best for the company, rather than yourself.
That said, "what have you tried so far" is a good question to ask, too, to coach your colleagues on how to find info, and to get context on what would be retreading their steps.
pessimizer
36 minutes ago
"Collaborating" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, and you're making a lot of silly accusations and presumptions. As a boss I'm not paying one employee to waste another employee's time, and I'm not paying them to teach each other when the answer is in the manual.
The question is whether one employee's time is more valuable than another employee's time. One employee answering another employee's question expends two people's time. If the answer is in the book or on the first page of google, it is wasting one of those employee's time, and that is the boss's money. If the employee asking the question makes ten times as much as the employee answering the question, and it saves him 10% of his time over flipping through the manual, it's a wash. If both employees make the same amount, or the other person even makes less, it is obviously a waste.
This is simple.
RTFM isn't an angsty insult. It is a suggestion because I am not going to answer your question if it is in the manual.