Author failed to explain the dash universe and their semantic assignments.

- em dash: adjoining thought (Hey, so — <declaration>)

- en dash: expresses a range (1–100)

- dash: compounds word-parts (Sarbanes-Oxley)

I'd also like to see more concise philosophy around em v. ellipsis, "limerance" is poetic (and ironically antithetical to this "essay" … and what of parens?). In short, em is communication and ellipsis is personal.

I offer this feedback as a humorously offended fan of all sidecar prose (dash, ellipsis, parens, quotes, and meta typographical treatments) pre-AI era.

Finally, I'd love to hear from this author regarding modern use of period in modern comunication, with canonical use-case of bulleted list as example.

One of the more memorable and influential library finds for me was an article in _Advertising Age_ which enumerated all of the special characters which should be set so as to accurately communicate, so in addition to en and em dashes it noted:

- − (minus symbol) for use in math equations or to indicate a negative

- I believe it also noted that there were two forms for the hyphen, normal and discretionary

- × (multiplication symbol) for use in dimensions and when actually indicating multiplication

- ′ and ″ (single and double primes) for use when indicating feet and inches, or minutes and seconds

- it also made explicit the difference between º (ordinal o) and ° (degree symbol) and noted when to make use of the other ordinals

- … while available as a special character, it is often better to construct this using suitably sized non-breaking spaces

- © ® ™ ℠ ℗ (copyright and so forth) to indicate such legal constructs as appropriate

- the various spaces en and em space, non-breaking flex space, &c.

I _think_ I still have a photocopy somewhere, but really should find a copy of the actual magazine....

The far more egregious and reprehensible thing is that many books now are published using quite pedestrian typing of the near equivalents from the keyboard as opposed to actually typing the correct signs.

I wrote a bit on this at:

https://tug.org/texshowcase/onetype.pdf

(note that it intended to be printed, folded, cut in the center, then re-folded so as to make a "hot dog" booklet: https://www.makingbooks.com/hotdog.shtml )

EDIT: That said, folks should be sure to get:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41600.The_Mac_is_Not_a_T...

or

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/358248.The_PC_is_Not_a_T...

You might think em dashes are amazing—but there is something three times better⸻the "three-em dash" (U+2E3B).

Why this thing exists, I do not know. Unicode people seem to like making bad decisions, like Han unification and emoji sprawl.

Test: 'There is no greater joy in life than typing a sentence, realising it needs a clarification, a caveat, an addendum, but in the same sentence, not a new one, and, guess what, the comma is right there for you. You want to package things neatly together, and the comma lets you do exactly this. Commas make writing feel like you are assembling lego bricks.'

I like using commas for spacing though em dashes do the same thing and avoid the run-on police?

Funny - the ChatGPT app on mac uses a font that doesn't differentiate between any dash.

I use dashes in place of commas, semicolons, colons, and brackets all the time - I just use the standard keyboard dash. Why the heck should I bother learning some stupid key combination to make the dash longer? I highly doubt that the vast majority of readers even know that there are different dashes with different uses. When I learned about it, I decided to be a conscientious objector because using - vs — and assuming I can tell the difference is inane (because it is font based).

(ironically, the HN text editing dialog shows - as ~.8 of the length of — whereas on the site it shows as ~.25 of —)

Em dashes—if properly used—are really useful.

They help convey that I am so smart—and I think so fast—that I have to constantly interrupt myself.

But—and I think this is important—it’s really easy to overuse them.

LLMs abuse em-dashes by putting them in places where a comma would be more appropriate. Especially as the separator before the last item in a list (in place of an "Oxford comma"). Classic LLM-speak em-dash mistreatment is something like, "This design brings performance, power — and speed."

They also like to use em-dashes excessively, especially in bulleted lists, to separate a topic from a comment in each list item.

Avoid those and you're fine. They aren't good writing style anyway. Used well, em-dashes are good!

In Eastern Europe, a lot of computer-savvy people write with em dashes. I see two reasons behind that:

1. There is a highly popular Cyrillic keyboard layout with an em dash made by design educator Ilya Birman – https://ilyabirman.net/typography-layout.

2. His colleague, Maxim Ilyahov is the author of an extremely popular book on writing good copy. Somehow, this book was a bestseller for years and was read by all kinds of common folk. I once saw a janitor reading it on a break!

Troglodyte here... I never use em dashes, never use semicolons, overuse ellipses and commas.

If you are at all interested in punctuation---and especially the em-dash---I highly recommend Nicholson Baker's essay "Survival of the Fittest" in the NYRB:

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1993/11/04/survival-of-the-...

I have always loved---and used---the em-dash, and after reading this essay in The Best American Essays 1994, sometime around 1995, I finally felt justified in my affection.

This post is so self-consciously dependent on inserting em dashes everywhere that it kinda supports its own counterargument. If you're going to make a case for em dashes enabling more fluid writing and more distinctive voice, then you ought to actually use them that way.

AI ruined them for me. I used to use them all the time. Now, whenever I do, I get called out for using AI.

LLMs use em- dashes because they appear in the training set. In other words, humans use them a lot. Such a weird issue to be adopted as an indicator of robot text.

Since before LLMs were a thing I've thought em dashes (at least outside of fiction) have a kind of irritating, business-casual feel about them, since they are simultaneously informal but also fussy in a way. That also describes exactly what bothers me about the classic ChatGPT writing style, which is obsequiously friendly and casual but also perfectly organized and precise, and which I imagine is based on a large dataset of middlebrow American news blogs and similar sources. So I'm not surprised that the em dash has stuck out to people as such a prominent feature of its style. It definitely has its uses but I can't say I would mind at all if the controversy diminished its use in real writing.

Nothing wrong with CMOS/APA/MLA dashes, I quite like them but usage in LLM prose has ruined it for me. AP dashes are weird, too much horizontal spacing, looks horrible and can really erode typographic color sometimes. "International" Oxford/Cambridge spaced dashes is nicest.

The funny thing is at both extremes, either none or indiscriminate use of dashes like in TFA, is a canary of "human writing".

People (including comments here) often attribute LLM use to prevalence in training data but it is probably far less common in the wild than we are led to believe, the more likely scenario is that whatever text-to-text normalization tools used ended up inserting whatever their idiosyncratic typographic styles were.

I'm reminded of a remark I read somewhere that the em dash is "almost excessively versatile."

> As for semicolons, semicolons are neat, they are like the coolest punctuation mark after the em dash

All that energy spent on punctuation, and still: comma splices. ):

I feel like people only look at the form and ignore the substance of the content. Honestly, as long as the content itself is well written and the em-dash is used correctly, I don't think it really matters.

When I first learned about em-dashes, I was told they were a mark of sophisticated, intellectual writing. But now people say they sound like AI. Is that really a bad thing?

It's strange to see sophistication become low-class just because AI uses it. It makes me think that form is really about who the author is, not the form itself.

In that sense, I'm not sure what it even means to be 'human-like.' Being human-like just feels like an illusion that people who want to believe in it keep insisting on

One thing I've always loved about Apple's OSs is that they will render an em dash if you press-and-hold the hyphen key.

Great accessibility.

I've turned against them, partly because they're too flexible. Many of the things a dash does can be done better by more specific forms of punctuation like semicolons, colons, or brackets, which give your sentence a clearer visual structure.

It's also easy to get too used to dashes and start sticking them in places where they don't belong. If you're using a coordinate conjunction like "and" or "but," a dash is awkward and redundant. "A period is great to express a complete thought — and it shifts the register of the next letter," can more easily be "a complete thought, and it shifts" or "a complete thought — it shifts."

Dashes take up a lot of space. Like exclamation points, they draw the eye. Does the eye really need to be drawn to "a complete thought; it shifts"? If you let them, dashes will replace all your other punctuation marks, and your writing will become a soup of horizontal lines. Dashes are a sometimes food.

from TFA:

> Em dashes can be used instead of brackets in a sentence — like this one for example — and you can just type your shit and keep going. Brackets are for people who raise their hand in meetings and say: “this might be a stupid question”. A parenthetical is whispering: “Sorry, don’t mind me, I’ll be quick”. Em dash kicks the door open and announces itself. Use brackets when you are embarrassed by your own thought.

Literally had me laughing out loud.

And then this bit:

> As for semicolons, semicolons are neat, they are like the coolest punctuation mark after the em dash — the fundamental indecision compressed into a single punctuation mark — you are neither starting a new sentence nor you are, exactly, continuing an existing one. You are just… piling your stuff together. I am always happy when I find a place for the little guy semicolon. But, again, most cases where you could use one are better off served by the em dash as well.

couldn't help but remind me of the following Kurt Vonnegut quote:

> Here is a lesson in creative writing. First rule: Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college.

:D

This post only makes the case for em dashes from a writing and expression point of you. But it misses why people now distrust em dashes - it's not about sentence structure or expression, it's the symbol itself.

I have a question to all em dash users reading this - why wouldn't I just use a regular dash in place of the normal full-length character? I have already done this several times in this very comment, and it's a very common convention on the internet. Outside publishing and other types of very high-brow writing, the fifty different variations of dashes with minor differences in length are pretty pointless, in my opinion. There's almost no scenarios where you need to make a distinction between them, what could possibly be misinterpreted because of dash length? So why not just use the regular, standard dash everywhere?

I did not know option + shift + hyphen produced an em dash. I've always used a double hyphen as a stand in -- as I did just now. LLMs don't do it and I haven't been accused yet. Though, more likely, I'm not popular enough for people to notice!

The overemphasis by critics on punctuation and "this not that" is tiring. I don't really know how to describe LLM writing but it has the same qualities as flat soda. Some authors you feel as though you fall through their work with little effort; unable to stop until gravity slams you into their conclusion. LLM writing can feel like an uphill hike to a sewage treatment plant. That is, its easy to convince yourself to stop at any time. There's a positive quality to that. I hope AI labs don't find a way to remove it.

I didn't know that AP style recommended spaces either side of the em dash. Here in the UK we generally use en dashes instead, and I thought em dashes always had no spaces. Apparently the wire machines that AP sent their news out by in olden times couldn't always do en dashes.

My problem with AI use of em-dashes is that it covers up sloppy writing. I simply collected about six examples of horrible use of em-dashes and how I would have written the text. This became part of my SKILL for general writing (along with a lot of other specific examples).

If you love em dashes and commas you will also love this https://archive.ph/0dxpW from the newyorker by Mary Norris.

I was never a big reader as a kid, but I fell in love with the New Yorker, much later in life, where I kind of adopted their idea of: "Once you understand them, you can read through long sentences very easily". That is the newyorker style of writing. One falls into two buckets, you love that kind of writing or you hate it. If its the latter, you should adopt em-dashes and commas to improve your writing style.

> ...on Mac, for example, it’s simply Option + Shift + Hyphen.

Fedora with XFCE here, but last I checked on Windows, it worked exactly the same over there: With a Chinese IME installed, tap shift to switch input language, shift+hyphen produces a double em-dash: ——, likewise, shift+6 a double elipsis: ……

You encounter those a lot in simple, machine translated Chinese, along with literal translations of "not X but Y", "not just ... but also" and similar sentence constructs that are common in Chinese. I suspect that's how a disproportionate amount of that ended up in training material in the first place.

About 15-20 years ago the em dash became popular in the Russian web-design community because, surprisingly, it is the proper character to use. Using "-" was a sign of low-quality work. I remember I even wrote a small app in C#, so I could have it on the screen, click a button, and get "—", "«" or "»" in the clipboard ("«" and "»" also mattered, because " is not really a legitimate character in Russian typography).

I'm used to often using both — and … when I write something (even short informal messages).

One advantage of my ESL english is that the text I produce doesn't look that much AI generated anyway…

For reference, here's the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style, and what it has to say about all sorts of dashes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Dash...

Wikipedia usage is probably a significant factor in the way LLMs understand language, by extension from the manuals of mainstream media outlets.

>There is no greater joy in life than typing a sentence, realising it needs a clarification, a caveat, an addendum — but in the same sentence, not a new one — and, guess what, the em dash is right there for you.

this is several sentences bound together in a rat king and furthers my theory that the use of more exotic punctuation like em dashes is the linguistic equivalent of a code smell. It may do the job, but it strongly indicates that your writing would benefit from rephrasing the entire sentence.

> Are you writing for an internet rando who’s got nothing better to do than to hunt for em dashes?

Some people even take pride on being able to detect (often falsely) AI generated work.

We should pronounce punctuation (Victor Borge)

https://youtu.be/ZEJBBlRlhAU?t=251

Can't help it. I like em dashes in works of fiction (e.g., C.J. Cherryh); I also find em dashes improve technical writing (for me).

Sometimes adding spaces around em dashes is not about preference, but helpful due to the font, or the device, you're reading on. At some zoom-levels, for example, an em dash may bump into an italicized word unless there's a bit of extra space.

i typically enjoy a good profanity-laden rant, but something about this particular one feels very forced. this sentence, for example: "[...] What if someone points one out in my writing?”. Bitch, please.". i cant really put my finger on why, but it almost feels like the author wrote their rant, then came back afterwards with a quota of fuck/shit/bitch they wanted to meet, placing them wherever they could.

in any case, i mostly agree with the author that ai has co-opted too many things to be concerned about it anymore. i remember being linked a list of "1,000 words not to use" because ai used them a lot (e.g. "delve", "absolutely", etc.) and the venn diagram with the 1,000 most common english words was practically a circle. you would be unintelligible if you rigorously avoided them all. now i just write without care of my ai-similarity score.

Em dashes really came on my radar, and I started using and appreciating them after reading Barack Obama's AMA on Reddit. His responses there felt very personal, genuine, and conversational and I think a lot of it had to do with the way he used em dashes (although, looking back at it now, they weren't "proper" em dashes).

Ever since the em-dash AI association, I've instructed my blog to use em dashes everywhere:

https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2025/Dec/a-proclamation-regardi...

I love the author's attitude. In my writing, I'll probably consider using en dashes ("-") in place of em dashes ("—") in the way he describes.

While it technically won't be grammatically correct, it'll get the benefits he describes in the article while also not being accused of being AI-generated.

I never see emdashes squeezed tightly to the word before them.

I only ever see them with an AP-style spacing before and after.

I've used dashes in typeset works ever since I learnt how to do them in (La)TeX (---). You don't usually put spaces around them, though.

There are actually four different "dash" type things in TeX: a hyphen, an en dash (for ranges like "10--20 pages"), em dash (---), and the minus symbol ($-$).

I'm unreasonably fond of the numero symbol (№), although I've never quite settled on whether it should be followed immediately by the number or whether there should be a (non-breaking, potentially thin) space between them. Although it does tend to look awful in monospace fonts.

Em dashes are indeed amazing! Go U+2014 !

has anyone used/seen em dashes in file/dir names? just wondered — I have't.

It's certainly easier to read than a hyphen/minus...but i guess it may become problematic cross-platform (on windows/linux it isn't as straight forward as on macos).

I'm all for Unicode if you want to say something like 你好 but separate nearly similar characters, like the different kinds of dashes, feel somehow wasteful. I prefer to stick with things that align with ASCII.

Typesetting aside, the em-dash as a grammatical construct is indeed pretty great.

Spaced en dashes are far more common internationally. Em dashes are primarily a US American tradition.

I am overjoyed with how many commenters we have here who enjoy talking about typography.

I get it. But I never would have until I built muscle memory for the keyboard shortcut.

There were too many em-dashes in this article, so I think it was written with AI.

Four words: Comic Sans Em Dashes!

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/im-comic-sans-asshole

I think Em dashes are fine in fiction where you're listening to someone's train of thought or something sudden happens, but they are really annoying in non-fiction.

I love it, it's in the style of the good old "The bile blog", a Java blog of the Web 1.0 era that was using a very colorful language.

I don't like them, I don't like text editors changing the literal text that I type. I think we should just use double dash -- instead.

I was introduced to em and en dashes reading Knuth's book on typesetting (the original one, before the TeX book series). Perhaps LLMs were too...

I hated em dashes before it was cool. Pretentious and pointless. I use parentheses, semi colons, commas, and shorter sentences.

It's interesting that an article extoling the virtues of the em-dash isn't using them correctly. They don't get spaces around them.

I really don't get liking em dashes. Just use two sentences or modify your original one. Both options are clearer like 90% of the time.

I've been playing with a tagline for my new startup.

"Monotonic Labs: We Do What We Have To—Because We Like It"

Em dashes = Stop reading immediately. Its 99.9% AI generated, and i wont be offering my time to that.

I just use hyphens all the time and always have. I don’t like that AI loves em dashes so much that it looks like everything I write now is AI generated, but if you were to deep dive you’d notice I’m using hyphens - never em dashes - so my writing can’t be AI. Granted you’d have to be pretty pedantic to care in the first place but it’s 2026 and here we are.

Spent the whole essay typing them incorrectly. There should not be spaces surrounding an emdash.

I personally really dig semicolons.

I think the Em dash fans are quitters ⸻ there are much longer dashes in Unicode they can use.

Thank you, I also love using them.

half the thread is people arguing about en dashes vs em dashes and the other half is people who just found out there are two kinds of dashes. typography is the only field where knowing the difference makes you more upset, not less

and here i thought "option -" was an em-dash, but no, it's an _en_-dash.

Just use -- to signal you're a human. That and two spaces after periods :)

> on Mac, for example, it’s simply Option + Shift + Hyphen

And on Windows it's Alt + 0151 on the numeric keypad, which means you a) must have a numeric keypad and remember the number, or b) must use the emoji search. And on Linux it's weird too.

Em dashes are therefore Mac user garbage. The correct replacement is --

Why the hell did they bury this thing three key-presses down on any keyboard???

I do indeed mis-using dashes.

I miss being able to use em dashes and not be accused of being a robot.

Would be ironic if this entire piece was written with AI.

separating em dashes (or preferably en dashes) with spaces is british style; no space is US style.

This is a great read — really — a truly great one — it really is.

I honestly couldn't tell if the author was writing satire (about AI writing detection?) or is just an idiot who doesn't understand why we have language rules to facilitate communication.

I want to think it's the latter, but it's so exquisitely stupid I keep thinking it's "stupid on purpose".

i like em dashes too, and i've started using double dash -- to signify readers i'm a person

funny. I was just texting someone this morning and using emdashes — and thought to myself... oh no.

writes an anodyne wall of text about his obsession with particular elements in a character table - ends with:

PS: if you want personalised advice from me on how to use punctuation correctly, you can now get it for $175/hour.

humans sometimes ...

ps: sasha, if you want me to read your future regurgitations you can now get that for €175/minute (limited availability, only skimread mode for now)

Nice language

Appositives are my favorite.

It annoys me that recently people seem to propagate the wrong use of em dashes. There is no space—an em dash is practically never typeset with spacing. You use an en dash in European typesetting – they have spaces, which your typesetting system hopefully adjusts to sane values. They're not like the spaces between words.

At least, that's how I learned it. Everyone seems to disagree and write em dashes with spaces nowadays.

Melancholy ellipsis...

The economy may collapse and the job market rendered irreparable but the real victims of the AI boom are the em-dash and the sparkle emoji

> But also, maybe consider not giving a fuck about what someone on the internet think?

If I'm writing something, typically I want to share my thoughts with other people and get their feedback. It won't work if they dismiss my writing because of some superficial stylistic choice, without even trying to engage with the ideas that I'm trying to express.

Terrible writing. Uses em dashes incorrectly and for no good reason. I like them too, and I'm saddened that they're now seen as a sign of AI slop. But that writeup is sadder.

iOS settings-> general->keyboard

Turn off smart punctuation.

Saves bytes.

If someone accuses you of using AI because of em-dashes, reply with something condescending like "I'm sorry you were poorly educated, but some of us can and do read books." It does wonders to put jackasses in their place.

I also love them - makes spotting AI written content easier. People debated implementing complex algorithms how to watermark AI content - but luckily AI just settled on it by itself.

(sorry for a bit of gaslighting)

> But also, maybe consider not giving a fuck about what someone on the internet think? Are you really that easily swayed by a rando’s opinion?

Endorsed. This post gets my vote. Two thumbs up vote.

> “But what would people think of my writing if I ever used an em dash? What if someone points one out in my writing?”. Bitch, please.

Hell yes, and ROFL. I’m tired of em dashes being cited as evidence of AI.

Regarding the AI-perspective of the emdash being commiserated here...

As a few have pointed out, many writers have been using it usefully since long before the blight.

The current state of revolt is probably a phase though, as models will learn to account and adjust for the litany of literary crimes they've been committing. In some ways we are fortunate to have such easy signals to work with while, already, false positives are becoming almost as common as actual positives, indicating it might not be long before we just can't tell anymore. Which would suck, but then we'd have to adjust the nature of our complaints to something more profound, something more... insidious, something.... Maybe Woodrow Wilson? [0]

It's not only the emdash that threatens the quality of our dialog and linguistic welfare — it's many principles, such as the the Rebuttle>Reframe>Prescribe structure of this very sentence. Once is a lot, but multiple instances of this structure in a single comment would be worse than swallowing a double hyphen sideways.

The LLM is methodical, deliberate, unhurried — in a way that rewards the vigilance, attention and patience required to spot compulsions, such as the Rule-of-Three seen here.

It's important to catch and worth noting each instance of filler-transition that adds little information while working toward word-counts.

Undoubtedly, if we want to make our world safe for the emdash once again, we certainly should not overlook overused intensifiers posing in places where real work should be.

While such examples can be found in legitimate human-written texts, they can also be found in LLM generated texts, and this Reflexive false balance style sentence is suggesting we just can't always be sure.

Consider a person suffering generic example syndrome, where instead of naturally recalling a situation from actual memory, an example might be synthesized from some statistical category, seeming a bit out of place.

And do not forget sentence length clustering around a mean, which humans have a tendency to naturally avoid.

Frictionless surfaces might also hint the involvement of LLMs, where the final structure may be suspiciously clean of normal human quirks.

Of course, the ultimate question here isn't even being asked, and the emdash is not a registered trademark of LLMs. It's not about whether we should fear using them, or even their value — it's about this Symmetrical closing that despite being written by a human (maybe subhuman) has strong patterns of an LLM.

0. “Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.”

Wilson went a bit farther than might have an LLM. But who knows, the future may bring new rules, perhaps even a rule of 6.

Now, when someone sees an em dash, they automatically think, "It’s AI-generated." It’s a pity that AI indirectly created this hysteria.

I was definitely hooked up on pace of the writing and it was a lot of things that I would agree. Definitely — fucking great — something to read.

I think Em-dashes are fucking useless and confusing.

I mean I feel the same way about the stink that's on em-dashes now, but they are kind of a lazy writing habit.

I still use them unapologetically. I don't give a shit about your AI purity tests, thank you.

He uses the word fuck so much that his argument must be true

Another AI slop post — so hot these days.

(We don't particularly have anything against profanity but here it seemed gratuitous so I've taken fucking out of the title above.)

em dashes are the best thing to track if the content is AI written, lol

in order to inform people that im not a bot/llm i -- outside of giving up on autocorrect -- use two dashes instead of one solid line because LLMs were using them a lot.

unfortunately microsoft (specifically outlook) and libreoffice have chosen to replace them with a proper em dash even if you turn off autocorrect which is bonkers-levels of infuriating.

if i turn off something it /should be turned off/, not just be kinda turned off; y'know?