maratc
3 days ago
The point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.
There are two options: visa-free with the biometric data passing on the wire (no hassle), or visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).
As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport") and only on arrival, in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.
eigenspace
3 days ago
What's unclear to me here is this: under this new scheme does the USA get access to the biometric data of people not travelling to the USA?
dinkelberg
3 days ago
From the analysis linked in TFA:
"The automated query can be based on: * Identity information included in the application or in travel documents, such as name, date of birth, national ID number, and/or * the fingerprint of an individual."
Sounds like they could send requests to that computer system just based on publicly available information on a person like name and date of birth, even if the person never applied for a visa or tried to enter the US.
eigenspace
3 days ago
Well, a national ID number isnt usually publicly available info, even if it can be obtained by the US government through illicit means.
But yeah, it does sound that way, but certainly not clear cut to me what the situation is. I.e. does the agreement involve clauses about what to do if this is abused? Do we have a way to detect if theyre using this on non-travellers? Etc.
T-A
3 days ago
> a national ID number isnt usually publicly available info
A couple of counterexamples:
Italy's "fiscal code" is generated with a simple algorithm which can be executed manually:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code
Sweden's "personal identity number" is public information and can be looked up by anyone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Swed...
sam_lowry_
2 days ago
Belgian National Number is your birth date, then an increment from 1 to 999 for every baby born that day, then a base-97 checksum.
andruby
2 days ago
Not sure if still the case: odd numbers for males and even numbers for females.
This also means a person’s Belgian RRN can change.
sam_lowry_
2 days ago
Yep, but they do not change on sex change, IIRC.
andruby
2 days ago
I wrote a system for a medical lab decades ago and IIRC I did actually have to change some RRN's manually. It's been a while so I'm not 100% sure, but I do think the changes were due to switching gender.
port11
2 days ago
Are there never more than 1k babies born in a day?
treszkai
2 days ago
With a population of 12M and life expectancy of 80 years (give or take), probably not, as that needs ~400 newborns a day to maintain, and the birth rate is probably well below that, like in most Western countries.
port11
a day ago
Back-of-the-napkin math supports that, but baby births aren’t uniformly distributed. Well, anyway, I’m sure they thought about it. Thanks for explaining how I got my Belgian ID number!
dinkelberg
3 days ago
This is the leaked draft: https://statewatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/wk_5183_20...
It's not clear how it is supposed to work in detail. But it sounds like it could be implemented in a way that makes illegitimate queries possible. It doesn't sound like they want to really ensure that you can catch those.
meibo
3 days ago
In multiple European countries, national ID numbers are public information that can be searched by name and address (i.e. Sweden)
iknowstuff
3 days ago
I played with Estonia’s e-residency and they use asymmetric cryptography for everything so the ID is public but does nothing without the corresponding private key.
Danox
3 days ago
Only the people who travel to the US should be included in this farce and vice versa the other way…
MarceliusK
3 days ago
It changes the nature of the scheme quite a bit
throwawayffffas
2 days ago
They probably could, but if done on a large scale, they are likely to be detected.
coldtea
2 days ago
That would matter if officials on the other side cared and weren't oking it.
beej71
3 days ago
This all reminds me about how RealID was vital to secure us from terrorism, and it took 20 years to get it in place... with no significant terrorist actions in that timeframe.
IMHO this level of tracking ain't worth the safety gained. Seems like safety gain is just the excuse at this point.
whimsicalism
3 days ago
A national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.
axus
2 days ago
In the US, we like to reduce state capacity. Helps limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power.
coldtea
2 days ago
And how's that been working out for you?
Not asking whether "reducing state capacity" helps with that. Asking how's that "reducing" going.
aboardRat4
2 days ago
Yeah, I'm also curious.
The USA has one of the biggest and most convoluted systems of government in the world, one of the only few where people actually need lawyers to navigate it.
axus
a day ago
The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification.
Government getting in the way is useful when it impedes other parts of government.
We're definitely going in the wrong direction, but it's been slower than Russia, Turkey, Austria, and others which are following well-worn paths. And the consequences for the world are so much worse if it happens in America.
aboardRat4
a day ago
>The states certifying their own elections is the next convoluted system in the way of unrestrained tyranny, after states controlling identity verification.
And what stops the US from mandating that States provide their citizens with a universal ID of an agreed form? Just like with the elections?
anticensor
2 days ago
Except such a federal ID already exists: the Passport Card. Make it free to obtain and mandatory to use.
mothballed
2 days ago
Passport card can be revoked over fairly small amounts of late child support which applies to a surprisingly large portion of America, particularly historically oppressed minorities. It would be quite foolish to rely on that for identification if you have children as a simple divorce could put you in instant arrears and cause you to lose your ID.
aboardRat4
2 days ago
>Passport card can be revoked over fairly small amounts of late child support
This is clearly ridiculous and not in any way connected to the reason passports exist. It's just purely bureaucratic tyranny.
Even the stated goal of "preventing people from running away to other countries" doesn't work, because the USA doesn't have border service check the passport _on leaving_ the country.
mothballed
2 days ago
There is no check on leaving, and our neighbor Mexico not only usually doesn't check, it's constitution* explicitly prohibits requiring passports for entry. And when you return US has to take you back, if citizen, passport or not. So you can easily go to and from Mexico without passport.
Virtually every time I go to Mexico, I'm one of very small % with passport going either direction.
* This is debated and some questionable court cases that actually protected rights of indigenous Mexicans to travel are cited as reasons why this constitutional provision isn't in effect (even though the case was clearly written to protect indigenous rather than justify overthrowing the constitution), but go to a land border with Mexico and 9 of 10 times I find they follow the constitution and don't check passport.
aboardRat4
2 days ago
So basically the passport can be made a universal ID, fairly easily, it's just some people in the higher circles don't want it to be.
dpark
2 days ago
This seems deeply delusional at this point.
markdown
2 days ago
As delusional as thinking the 2nd amendment will help "limit the damage bad actors can do when they are in power".
whimsicalism
2 days ago
no, it’s actually the same delusion as that one
eesmith
2 days ago
The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages. (Apparently Andorra doesn't either.)
You might consider it part of the Anglosphere mentality as Canada, the US, Australia, the Bahamas, and New Zealand don't have national ID.
I've never understood the problem that RealID is supposed to solve.
How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant?
yeputons
2 days ago
> The major European exception being the UK, which doesn't issue identity cards and somehow manages.
You have to bring in loads of other random documents to get a passport, for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44408872
To reliably prove your age (e.g. in a store or a concert venue), you have to get a provisional driving license. If you are not qualified (maybe still disqualified to drive, or eyesight problems), tough luck, I'm not aware of any other government-issued photo ID in the UK. Foreigners previously had BRPs, but they are not issued since 2025, everything is electronic now.
There is also the "PASS" scheme where private providers (like banks) can issue plastic cards with photos, but I've heard they are regularly rejected by various venues as proof of age and/or identity, there is no legal requirement to accept them, just a recommendation. And I can imagine non-UK entities care about these about as much as they do about ISIC. TSA was definitely unhappy when I tried using ISIC about ten years ago for a US domestic flight.
eesmith
a day ago
From that link, 'All this keeps the game interesting and fun, taking weeks and sometimes months to complete'.
Some people in the US take longer than that to get Real ID. Like, elderly black people born in the Jim Crow era where birth records simply weren't kept for them. https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/florida-woman-says-she-ca... , or a missing 50-year-old marriage record - https://local12.com/news/nation-world/elderly-womans-real-id... .
Are you proving your age for a store or a concert venue for alcohol reasons? Don't people age out once they look over 25? Or do venues check for other reasons?
I've read about the big backlash when a national ID scheme for the UK is proposed, so I presume the benefits aren't all that high.
Like, when you check into a hotel, do you have to show ID? https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g186216-i15-k1095345... tells me that it's uncommon. While in the US, I nearly always have to show ID for an overnight room.
Or, in many place in the US, everyone is IDed for alcohol, even if you are 70 years old, which annoys a lot of people who are clearly old enough to drink. Even better, since US privacy laws are so poor, these ID checks also gather demographic information, identify 'high-value customers', and collaborate with other places to ban people -- rather like the facial recognition systems you all have in the UK.
Maybe Brits want to avoid normalizing more id checks?
aboardRat4
2 days ago
>How is it TSA can accept a Veteran Health Identification Card or photo identification card issued by a federally recognized tribe, and the passports from every country in the world, but not a state-issued ID which is not REAL ID-compliant?
They can only accept them before IDs are implemented of course, as a poor substitute. After national id documents are standardised, it's just them, nothing else counts.
eesmith
a day ago
That still doesn't tell me what problem it is supposed to solve.
aboardRat4
a day ago
Isn't it nice to have a guaranteed way to prove that (1) you are you, that (2) you are a citizen, that (3) you are over 18, and that (4) you live where you live?
Guaranteed in the sense that (a) it's available instantly, (b) everyone _has to_ accept it, because it's universal.
So you don't have keep paid utility bills with your address, just show your ID card. You don't have to "register as a voter" ever again, just show your ID before getting a ballot.
If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant, and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, just make him show an ID before signing a rental agreement.
eesmith
a day ago
There is a tautological issue here - before Real ID everyone had to accept state-issued ids because that's what people had.
How does Real ID guarantee (1), (3), or (4) better than the state-issued non-Real IDs?
Places are not required to accept all Real IDs as proof of age. A bar, for example, may reject out-of-state ids for proof of age for those who look under 25.
Real ID does not prove citizenship (2). Non-citizen residents may have Real ID.
If a Canadian claims to be a snowbird tourist and wants to rent your guest house for five months, and you are worried that he might happen to be an illegal migrant and would risk being deported instead of paying rent next month, how does Real ID help?
He has no Real ID, only Canadian ID.
Note also that the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination based on national origin. Landlords must provide equal opportunities regardless of nationality or immigration status.
Your proposed scenario seems like it breaks anti-discrimination law.
Even better, if that person shows you a valid tribal id from a federally recognized tribe, but which is not Real ID compliant, will you rent to him? The feds consider it a valid alternative to Real ID.
aboardRat4
18 hours ago
Okay, I misunderstood you, sorry.
Yes, the system as you are describing it makes no sense.
>Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination based on national origin
Maybe the USA is like this. I haven't and seen such an interpretation of "national origin" anywhere else in the world.
I have only ever heard the term "national origin" with respect to _citizens_. E.g. you were a Pakistani, married a Chinese took Chinese citizenship, you are a Chinese citizen, but your "national origin" is still Pakistani. Of course discrimination on the basis of something which is not in the documents is illegal. You are a Chinese no matter where you were born. But if you are born as Pakistani and are still a Pakistani, then the term "national origin" makes no sense.
>Your proposed scenario seems like it breaks anti-discrimination law.
Again, possibly the USA is unique in this respect. Where I live (as well as my previous country) the anti discrimination law is strict, but it only extends to the government institutions. And I'm finding it baffling that it may happen to be otherwise in other countries.
State universities cannot reject students based on race or sex. Buses must carry everyone regardless. Police must accept complains from all. Of course.
But prohibiting private people from freely exercising their basic rights of liking and disliking whoever they want (and consequently making or not making commercial agreements with them) is such a mind-blowing example of tyranny that it's hard to even imagine for my third-world brain.
eesmith
10 hours ago
This was a tangent starting with "I find the RealID opposition baffling." at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48983452 .
I oppose Real ID because I don't understand the problem it's trying to solve, and it seems expensive and cumbersome for at least some.
Real ID is a US-only issue, so I interpreted "If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant" in the US context.
In the US case, quoting https://www.eeoc.gov/national-origin-discrimination :
> National origin discrimination involves treating workers (applicants or employees) unfavorably or favorably because they are from a particular country or part of the world, because of ethnicity or accent, or because they appear to be of a certain ethnic background (even if they are not).
> National origin discrimination can include preferring foreign workers, including workers with a particular visa status, over American workers.
> National origin discrimination also can involve treating people unfavorably because they are married to (or associated with) a person of a certain national origin.
In where you live, and where you used to live, a business can refuse service to a minority group? To indigenous people? What about to someone whose boyfriend is a member of a minority group?
You write 'exercising their basic rights of liking and disliking whoever they want (and consequently making or not making commercial agreements with them)'.
The "consequently" is doing some heavy lifting. In the US you have the basic rights of liking and disliking whoever you want. This is part of the freedom of assembly, which is the US way of saying the freedom of association.
Commercial agreements for services available to the public, however, are interpreted under different rules than private agreements. In the US you are free, under the law, to run a private club which refuses black people, Jewish people, women, and so one. These all exist.
However, if your club is open to the public, then you cannot discriminate on race, religion, or sex.
(Technically the US had federal civil rights laws, which under our federal system only apply to businesses large enough to nominally be involved in interstate commerce. However, state laws essentially extend this to everyone, with a few carve-outs for, for example, a women looking for a housemate and insisting they be another woman.)
Do you live in one of the handful of countries which are not signatory to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination? Quoting from https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/cerd.pdf
"In compliance with the fundamental obligations laid down in article 2 of this Convention, States Parties undertake to prohibit and to eliminate racial discrimination in all its forms and to guarantee the right of everyone, without distinction as to race, colour, or national or ethnic origin, to equality before the law, notably in the enjoyment of the following rights: ... The right to housing .. The right of access to any place or service intended for use by the general public, such as transport hotels, restaurants, cafes, theatres and parks."
Almost every third-world country is signatory, so it can't be some broad "third-world brain" viewpoint.
aboardRat4
5 hours ago
>The right to housing .. The right of access to any place or service intended for use by the general public, such as transport hotels, restaurants, cafes, theatres and parks.
The right of access and the right to housing are not affected. The police will not evict a person of colour from a rented accommodation, and will not assist a shop owner with kicking out a person of colour from their shop.
But a right is not an entitlement. In order to rent a private room or buy something in a private shop, both parties should agree.
Again, quoting the convention, "equality before the law". A business owner is not a representative of the law. The police and the civil servants treat everyone equally.
>In where you live, and where you used to live, a business can refuse service to a minority group?
A private business can refuse anyone. That's because it is private. "The transaction is not seen as profitable." The most popular reason for refusal though is not race, origin, or citizenship, it's not having an app to pay for the service, because most small businesses don't bother accepting cash any more. The government is theoretically trying to deal with this issue by running propaganda campaigns "accept cash!", but I think the battle is lost.
>Real ID is a US-only issue, so I interpreted "If you are worried that your tenant might happen to be an illegal migrant" in the US context.
Yes, I got confused, apologies. I still don't see why the US cannot just issue passports to all citizens, and treat a passport as a universal ID (or mandate that all state-issued IDs be universally recognized), but it's unrelated to the "Real ID".
user
2 hours ago
eesmith
2 hours ago
So in the country you live in, a shop owner is free to kick out women from his phone store, simply for being a woman. India banned discrimination on the basis of caste back in 1947. Does that something you can imagine with your "third-world brain"?
The US used to use this logic until around 1960. It was a horrible country, at least if you were black. Even if a white person wanted to offer housing to black people, the white person was discriminated against. Collective private action used to reinforce a white supremacist social structure.
That's why we needed laws to require public services be available without discrimination based on race, religion, and various other protected classes.
"A private business can refuse anyone. That's because it is private."
A business may be privately owned while doing business with the public. That is quite different than a privately owned business which operates a private club.
Furthermore, businesses are subject to regulations that private people do not have. This is clear in organization structures like a limited company, where the company is a recognized as being legally distinct from its owners. These companies exist only because the government says so, which means the government can control what they can or cannot do.
It's also clear in places like licensing, where someone cannot simply say "I am a medical doctor" and offer medical services, and in other regulations like food safety, where restaurants -- even privately owned ones -- are held to standards which people don't have when cooking for themselves.
aboardRat4
2 hours ago
>So in the country you live in, a shop owner is free to kick out women from his phone store, simply for being a woman
But why would anybody do such a crazy thing? Such things just don't happen, unless it's a gynaecologist office, where men are generally not admitted.
Moreover, we have thousands of shops available. If a shop refuses a customer, they just lose money.
>Even if a white person wanted to offer housing to black people, the white person was discriminated against.
Again, we just don't have such a thing. Don't project your social issues upon us. You can rent or not rent out your flat out to anyone you want, nobody else's business.
>Collective private action used to reinforce a white supremacist social structure.
This is clearly illegal. But I don't see licensing as an answer to this. Just a decent police service is needed.
>It's also clear in places like licensing, where someone cannot simply say "I am a medical doctor"
Because in such cases a concluded transaction can cause non-financial damage to the sides of the said transaction.
It has nothing to do with the bargaining process.
If there is no transaction, there is nothing to discuss.
redsocksfan45
3 days ago
[dead]
matchstickman23
2 days ago
Not to mention that to get around RealID with flights, you just have to pay $45 and you're good to go. Since we all know that bad actors don't have access to that sort of money...
cramer4next
2 days ago
Can you expand on this? How can you board a flight without realID for $45?
tjbrock
2 days ago
Have you been to an airport yet since it became mandatory? They actually have signs around stating it. I had similar thoughts as the GP about that.
cramer4next
2 days ago
Not for roughly the last 6 months. I have been using my passport because my old drivers license doesn't expire until next year. I'll have to look closer or read the signs then. Just never noticed that.
matchstickman23
a day ago
Yeah, I've been using my Nexus card, but I've flown with people who forgot their passport and didn't have RealID and they just have you go to a website, pay $45, and show them you've paid and you're on your way. It's very secure :)
eesmith
2 days ago
It is called "TSA ConfirmID". https://www.tsa.gov/tsaconfirm-id
"If you are unable to provide the required acceptable ID, such as a passport or REAL ID, you can pay a $45 fee to use TSA ConfirmID. TSA will then attempt to verify your identity so you can go through security; however, there is no guarantee TSA can do so."
From https://thepointsguy.com/news/tsa-security-with-confirmid/ :
"TSA agents pull you aside for secondary screenings and to verify your identity. ... After looking me up in his system, [the supervisor] asked me a series of questions only I could answer (previous addresses and that sort of thing)."
cco
2 days ago
And also according to the DHS is apparently now insufficient to prove citizenship to vote, i.e. goal posts moved.
arjie
2 days ago
Is your RealID different? I’ve had one for ages and am not a US citizen. I can’t see how it could be proof of citizenship if I, a non-citizen, has one.
cco
13 hours ago
I needed to supply all the necessary documents to prove citizenship, yeah. SSN and birth certificate.
Sounds like RealID has other options for proving identity for non-citizens?
dataflow
3 days ago
Edit: sorry, I misunderstood the post.
moomin
3 days ago
I think a better way of describing it would be, someone broke into your house. The police said they'd patrol it, but it would take 20 years to set up. In those 20 years, no-one broke into your house. You might suspect they had other reasons for wanting to patrol outside your house.
continuational
3 days ago
The parent post is saying that the officer didn't show up for 20 years, with no burglaries in your neighborhood in between.
iinnPP
3 days ago
Unmentioned is the effect of having officers watch your home the entire time. Which is the tradeoff not worth the hassle for everyone.
NietTim
3 days ago
So let the people who want to go to the US do that and don't send data from the vast majority of people who will never visit the US there. It's claimed that only data of traveler's will be retrieved by the US but it's not 2012 anymore, we all know better.
thomasahle
3 days ago
> Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once
Once for each arrival.
maratc
3 days ago
Not my experience the last time I entered. I travelled with a friend for whom it was his first time visiting the US. He was fingerprinted, I wasn’t (I was fingerprinted a while ago on one of my previous trips.)
calgoo
3 days ago
I have gotten fingerprinted every time i arrive, before i got a green card and after i got a green card. Not sure if its related to something else, country of origin or country im traveling from etc.
maratc
3 days ago
Ok, it could depend on the type of visa too. I only enter for tourism (B2 I think) and have never overstayed.
happymellon
3 days ago
Never overstaying, always fingerprinted on arrival.
anvuong
3 days ago
Your profile probably flagged some checks so they needed to get your fingerprints to actually confirm you are the one on the visa. I've never had to give fingerprints except for my first US visa.
happymellon
3 days ago
UK, so on VISA Waiver programme not VISA.
jq-r
3 days ago
Fingerprinted once 12 years ago, never again. Traveled on ESTA.
8fingerlouie
2 days ago
Same here, went in 2019, got fingerprinted, and went again in 2021 and 2025, and they didn't even care about my ESTA, they just waved me through.
The TSA agent asked me the usual questions about where I was staying, how long I was staying, I replied, and despite having printed just about everything out, he just waved me through.
The closest I got was a "random inspection" in an airport, and the TSA agents asked for our passports and to go through our luggage, but as soon as we flashed our Danish passports they lost all interest and just waved us through.
DrScientist
3 days ago
The point of taking biometics is they can check if the same person is travelling on the same passport each subsequent visit.
Sometimes they rely on just image matching, and sometimes they ask for an additional finger scan ( but not normally all fingers of all hands like first registration ).
So perhaps if you have a generic looking face, or have changed your appearance since the first visit you are more likely to be fingerprinted.
gertrunde
2 days ago
What is the point of them taking the fingerprints at all, if they don't verify them on entry?
_zoltan_
3 days ago
No. I haven't had to do it in at least two years and I travel here frequently on an EU passport.
whimsicalism
3 days ago
not for US citizens at least, whereas I get fingerprinted entering and exiting as an EU citizen in the EU.
throw-the-towel
3 days ago
That's weird. When I enter France from outside Schengen they don't fingerprint me, and I'm not even a European citizen.
whimsicalism
3 days ago
Maybe not at land crossings. I just exited from Portugal and got fingerprinted on exit and entry. Granted I was using my US passport, not my EU
rdl
3 days ago
EU changed a lot this year (EU EES and ETIAS, long delayed), so this is probably different now than it was for some people before. It should be passport + biometric in and out, with a passport and biometric enrolled once as well, and visa-free stay duration (and other activities, like criminal stuff) logged against that record as well. Previously if you entered in one country and exited in another there wasn't really any closure of the record, so they effectively didn't care, and you could stay in EU indefinitely (and enter/exit much more while also overstaying, especially if you had multiple passports or could enter/exit from different countries).
extraduder_ire
2 days ago
> Granted I was using my US passport, not my EU
Then you're American as far as they're concerned. Citizenship isn't something you can tell at a glance or determine by measuring a person.
whimsicalism
2 days ago
the person i'm replying to said they didn't have that experience as a non-EU citizen, whereas i did
CrimsonRain
2 days ago
Thats why. You don't have to go thru this extra check if you use EU passport or if you have temporary/permanent residency (but not travel visa) attached to your passport.
shevy-java
3 days ago
Both the USA and the EU are doing Evil here. However had, this is not solely confind to biometric data only - this is about selling data to outside agencies, so the EU betrays EU citizens here.
testing22321
3 days ago
> in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport")
I’ve entered the US something like 150 times over 20 years. Visa free (ESTA) and on a B1 tourist visa.
I’ve been fingerprinted and photographed every single time.
jasonlotito
3 days ago
As has been discussed elsewhere, this sounds more like you are flagged than SOP.
testing22321
3 days ago
Never had a problem, never any hint or talk that anything is amiss. Always extremely routine.
maratc
2 days ago
Well, entering the US an average of 7.5 times each year is hardly usual, unless one's a Canadian living near the border and jumping to a Costco on the other side.
testing22321
2 days ago
Live in Canada, not a citizen.
It’s nice to go south to Alaska and see liquid water for 6 months of the year when we can’t.
whimsicalism
3 days ago
> never any hint or talk that anything is amiss
there never is
isodev
3 days ago
Also worth nothing that if you’ve verified your ID on LinkedIn or anything that uses Persona or some other flavour of Palantir - the US already has all this data and much more.
DocTomoe
3 days ago
With the major distinction being that a lot of Europeans have absolutely no intention of ever visiting the United States, a country with a history of sometimes more, sometimes less hostility and aggressive intelligence agencies.
If you want to visit a hellhole, go through the hassle. But don't hand out all of our data just because you want to do joyrides.
maratc
3 days ago
Can't see where "the major distinction" lies. It's also true that a lot of US citizens have absolutely no intention of ever visiting Europe -- as to hostilities, well the last two World Wars didn't exactly start in the US.
DocTomoe
2 days ago
Good, so we can agree that the minor hassle for the minority to get a slightly slower immigration line at the airport does not outweigh privacy rights for the majority.
BTW: Where, and when, those wars started is a splendid way for historians to spend an afternoon discussing.
The point is that after 1945, the US never stopped fighting wars all over the world, using euphemisms sometimes, sometimes slogans, but it always was war.
Alive-in-2025
3 days ago
I hate all this biometric scanning on all sides. As an American it makes me not want to visit the EU to avoid being scanned, and I'd understand the other way too if an EU member was visiting the us.
In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?
It's probably too late but we should try to get rid of this.
8fingerlouie
2 days ago
> In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?
This my major concern with biometrics and DNA databases. It makes the cops lazy. "Subjects fingerprints and DNA was found on the crime scene, so he's clearly the murderer". That flips the evidence around, suddenly "I" have to prove I'm innocent as opposed to the law proving I'm guilty.
If you can simply collect all DNA and fingerprints from a crime scene, look it up in a database and compile a list of suspects, it also eliminates the possibility that the real perpetrator didn't leave DNA or fingerprints.
Sure, DNA has its use, like "here's the murder weapon, and it has the suspects DNA and fingerprints on it". It's not a guarantee, but it's a closer match.
As for "does that happen in Europe as well", unfortunately yes. There have been cases where the police have found fingerprints and DNA and announced they had the suspect they were looking for, only for said person to be cleared weeks or months later.
As a general rule, DNA and fingerprints cannot be the sole evidence in EU courts. The law will need find more evidence before they can convict you. Also, no death penalty, and "lifetime" in the EU is usually around 10 years, so not a lot of people are found innocent after 30 years.
whimsicalism
3 days ago
I suspect that false imprisonment/recognition cases are lessened with biometrics, not increased. I absolutely believe you can point me to individual cases though.
8fingerlouie
2 days ago
Your DNA and fingerprints are literally everywhere you go, and they don't decay as soon as you leave. Hell, even passing close by a person can transfer your DNA to their clothes.
If the cops have a DNA Database, they "just" need to collect all DNA from a crime scene to compile a list of suspects, and by doing so, they're flipping the question of guilt around, you're no longer innocent until proven guilty, but guilty until proven innocent. You now have to prove you didn't "do it".
leonidasrup
2 days ago
All the biometrics technologies are not perfect, e.g. there is a small chance of false positive, be it fingerprints, DNA, hair analysis, etc.
Veritasium had a nice video about this biometrics errors:
xboxnolifes
2 days ago
How could random prints be falsely linked to me if my prints are not in a database? It can only happen if they are.
whimsicalism
2 days ago
You can be falsely linked to a crime without biometric evidence and excluded on the basis of biometric evidence
crote
2 days ago
That can also be trivially done without a biometrics database: just collect and compare when they become a suspect!
florakel
3 days ago
No, if you don’t change your passport you only have to scan your fingerprints once in the EU.
8fingerlouie
2 days ago
If you have a recent EU passport (like 6-8 years), biometrics like fingerprints are already in the chip, and you won't need to be fingerprinted upon arrival or departure, at least in theory, I wouldn't be surprised if some bureaucrat decided that the passport data can't be trusted and we'll fingerprint everybody anyway.
maratc
2 days ago
We're not talking about people who have an EU passport, we're talking about those who want to enter the EU with a non-EU passport. These people get fingerprinted on entry (and some of them on exit too) since 2025.
maratc
3 days ago
I have just returned from the EU last week and I have been fingerprinted twice — once on entry and once on exit.
The US passport holders get fingerprinted on entry only, as I’ve heard.
rypskar
2 days ago
Is that good or bad? Maybe a naive thought but the first I think is that check every time is to check biometrics matches with what is in the passport without storing them, checking only once mean your picture and fingerprint is stored a central place and is used in combination to later verify that the passport is yours
maratc
2 days ago
Before this change, my average time for EU immigration check was 10-20 min. After this change, it's 2-3 hours. Is that good or bad?
I don't care much about "verify that the passport is yours". For centuries, the person presenting the passport was supposed to be the owner of it, with their photo (aka "biometrics") as a proof. Comparing your passport picture with your face is what border controls have been doing since forever.
rypskar
2 days ago
That is clearly bad. I was commenting based on the privacy point of it, not the user experience. On the privacy part it is also strange that fingerprints, something we leave copy off all over the place, is considered private and safe information, instead of something that is easy to copy and relatively easy to spoof
maratc
2 days ago
The linked article argues that our pictures and fingerprints are "our most sensitive data" and it's bad giving it to anyone, like the US Government. I tend to agree on the "sensitive" part but not sure I agree on "US Govt" part.
The fact that we leave fingerprints everywhere is hardly relevant, considering the costs of retrieving and storing them en masse are astronomical.
The licence plates on our cars are out in the open for everyone to see, and yet when a private company collects them and makes a searchable database out of it -- with locations and timestamps -- making it possible for anyone with access to build traceable paths of all of our movements since forever, it results in people getting enraged, and in my opinion justifiably so.
florakel
3 days ago
Ok, weird, I don’t know how the system works then. My wife is Colombian and on her last entry she just scanned her passport and that was it.
maratc
3 days ago
If you're an EU citizen, it could be that your wife has an EU residence permit. The rules for EU residents are different.
whimsicalism
3 days ago
i just traveled to the EU last week and you're wrong, got fingerprinted on entrance and exit
markdown
2 days ago
> visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).
Since US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs, it's relatively not a hassle at all.
yeputons
2 days ago
If you're lucky with your citizenship. Others get 3yrs or 1yr max. And that's after administrative processing if you're unlucky, which might take years: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2020/11/09/a-us-visa-in-937-days...
And for some passports in the last, say, six years, the probability is significantly increased. There is no official information as far as I know, just some anecdotical evidence from forums.
And before all of that you have to remember all your trips for the last 10 years to enter into DS-160 (you learn to keep a spreadsheet after the first time you do that, UK visas require that as well). And secure an appointment, which (since 2025) must happen in the country of your citizenship, or the country of your residence, which you should prove (sometimes it takes years to get residency documents in some EU countries). If you're unlucky, the waiting time for an appointment might be measured in years too. If you get a waiting time after all, sometimes there are just no appointments available whatsoever with no extra information.
Attending a company event is, of course, not a valid reason to get an expedited appointment. At least not that I've heard.
And I'm sure there are even more tricky things that I haven't heard of.
markdown
a day ago
Yes, I know it depends on citizenship. In my country, on top of all the hurdles you mentioned, you have to deposit about $7,000 USD into a US government account as a guarantee that you won't overstay. You get that back when you return to your country. That's new Trump policy that hopefully doesn't outlast his presidency.
maratc
2 days ago
> US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs
> it's relatively not a hassle at all
HDBaseT
2 days ago
>EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now on every arrival and departure.
This world is very depressing. I think this may be my last year on the planet.
RandomLensman
3 days ago
If the US gets the data anyway, why the need for access?
some_random
3 days ago
It's to validate that the fingerprints of the person arriving are the same as the fingerprints of the person who got the passport.
RandomLensman
3 days ago
The fingerprints in the passport can't do that?
rafram
3 days ago
Most countries' passports don't include fingerprint data. The US passport application process is entirely digital/by mail, for example, with no fingerprinting at all.
RandomLensman
3 days ago
EU passports do.
rafram
3 days ago
Not those issued in Denmark or Ireland, apparently [1], though I see other sources saying Denmark does fingerprint now. Most countries don't fingerprint children.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Unio...
RandomLensman
3 days ago
Seems like Ireland only currently (looking at the Danish Minstry of Foreign Affairs on passports). And, yes, age threshold for kids.
mothballed
3 days ago
The average US border official is a (angry) moron (with a badge and a gun). They've literally fingerprinted me on entry with a US passport because they were too stupid to figure out US citizens don't have to do that. I have been interrogated by CBP to ask if I "work in the country" despite being a citizen. Anything that changes the process from the simplest one-size-fits all will be fucked up, they cannot differentiate the process between foreigner and citizen let alone EU vs some other place.
Edit: Every time I share my border stories I get accused of lying or having done something wrong. I have much much crazier ones. No one believes it until it happens to them. Count yourself lucky if you've never been strip searched or imprisoned by these psychopaths, any belief they are reasonable are formed because you were lucky and have a naïve sort of optimism that if you do everything right it won't happen to you.
themaninthedark
3 days ago
The average US border official is just like the average official(and non-official) anywhere; mostly bored, waiting for their workday to be over so they can go home and do the things that they actually enjoy.
Not to say they don't make mistakes or don't fully read/understand their systems. A co-worker was former LEO, had his id stolen at that time. We were traveling back from an a vendor site across the border, the border agent misunderstood the system alert from "double check this guys docs to make sure he is who he says he is" to "Anyone using this id is traveling under a false name!" So he got held and questioned, called his former supervisor, CPB supervisor came and showed him how to get a travel redress number.
Amusingly, since we were traveling together, I got his luggage off the carousel and kept it with me as I watched them question him. After some time they decided to look at his bags and came looking for them, I told them I had them and he was with me. They took the bags and didn't even want to speak with me.
mothballed
3 days ago
>The average US border official is just like the average official(and non-official) anywhere;
False. CBP is well known as bottom rung in terms of hiring of federal LEO and an employer of last resorts. For example, one of the most prestigious is the Marshals Service, and for instance HSI is typically far closer to "average" or above than CBP is. If you're dealing with something like a DEA or FBI agent that is roughly 'average' and CBP you are roughly dealing with the 'moron' end and roughly the professional and intelligence opposite of the Marshals.
rafram
3 days ago
> because they were too stupid to figure out US citizens don't have to do that
This seems extremely unlikely to me. Did you stand in the noncitizens line by mistake?
rawgabbit
3 days ago
It's called racial profiling.
koverstreet
3 days ago
U.S. border agents really are just worse. Much worse. (I can't say what racial profiling adds to that, I can only speak to my own experiences).
I've been routinely grilled and extensively searched many times just crossing between the U.S. and Canada - the most hilarious instance being when I was crossing from Yukon Territory back to Alaska some 10 years ago.
In Latin America, things are considerably more professional, and the government officials don't act like they hate you and just want you to go away. Europe's fine too.
miki123211
3 days ago
From what I've heard, Canada is actually a lot worse than the US.
I was traveling as part of a party of five (different travel dates, separate ETA filings, no apparent connection). One of us didn't get an ETA. Another got one just before the trip (and it was a 13-year-old child). The rest of us got ours immediately, but I was questioned at the border for 10+ minutes with no apparent reason, and then allowed in without a comment.
rawgabbit
3 days ago
From what I heard anecdotally, Canadian officers are trained to “interrogate” everyone believing the added duress will cause people to slip up and reveal they are really a terrorist or some such.
matwood
3 days ago
I'm a US citizen, living in the EU and have global entry, etc... I've been to Canada once on business and they asked more questions than I've ever had asked on all my frequent travels back and forth EU-US.
kelnos
3 days ago
> In Latin America, things are considerably more professional, and the government officials don't act like they hate you and just want you to go away.
Depends. Someone I know had a terrible experience crossing into Belize on a land border. Was held there for two hours while they "verified" something. Seemed like a power-tripping agent.
mothballed
3 days ago
I would characterize Belize as part of the Anglosphere instead of Latin America. Last colonized by Britain as their last European influence on governance and only English as the official language. The anglosphere has the nastiest border controls in my experience.
lazide
3 days ago
Maybe (hamfistedly) angling for a bribe to ‘expedite’?
rafram
3 days ago
US citizens aren't fingerprinted on entry, regardless of race(!). They don't even have the fingerprint machines in the citizen line at any airport I've ever gone through, which is why I suspect GP went to the wrong place.
kelnos
3 days ago
SFO has fingerprint machines in all lines, including the citizen lines. And in the Global Entry lines, even.
I agree with you that US citizens aren't supposed to be fingerprinted on entry, but I am absolutely unsurprised that it happens sometimes.
lazide
3 days ago
Every port of entry I’ve been in, they have the same setup at every booth, which definitely includes the fingerprint machines. Even Texas, though I just got waved through due to the creepy gait/face recognition thing without stopping.
Yay for our AI overlords or something?
naravara
3 days ago
I’m a minority who, despite visually fitting the stereotype of a plane hijacker, have found our passport control people to be nothing but professional and courteous. The overall system seems to be pretty efficient about moving people through, despite the airports I’m going through being out of date and not set up for the volumes of traffic they get.
This is a marked contrast to the rest of our immigration, border patrol, and airline security people who are lazy and needlessly aggro as a rule.
But if you asked me to trade the passport check experience of entering the US with the experiences I’ve had trying to get into France or Germany I’d pick the US hands down. Especially Frankfurt. WTF are they doing over there?
kelnos
3 days ago
The issue with stories like yours is that they don't really tell us anything. The incidence of racial profiling is low enough that some people, such as yourself, will never have a problem, ever. But that doesn't mean there aren't problems, and that they don't crop up often enough to be something we should be really uncomfortable with letting happen.
jltsiren
3 days ago
In my experience, the airports could handle the passenger volume, but they lack the people. I've entered the US 25–30 times, and almost every time, there have been long lines and empty immigration counters.
mr_toad
3 days ago
prmoustache
3 days ago
new ones yes but mine is still valid for the next 2.5 years and doesn't.
When passports are valid for 10 years there is always a bit of inertia.
ninalanyon
3 days ago
How do they manage that? Do you have to visit a government office to get a passport? I only have a UK passport and it definitely does not include my finger prints as it was obtained by post.
miki123211
3 days ago
Yes.
In fact, you have to do it twice; once to apply and once to receive it.
In Poland at least, the queues are often a few weeks long, and you have to book online in advance. If it's summer season and you need to travel soon, you usually have to go to some office in Buttfuckville at the other end of the country to get a reasonable date. Passport office hunting is an established practice for people who need one ASAP.
If you're a kid, both of your parents need to be present with you at the appointment at the same time, so they have to coordinate time off work. The fun begins if they're divorced and one lives in a different country.
At least, unlike in the UK/US, the process itself is pretty painless. I got mine just after I turned 18 (see above), and all I really needed to do was to go there, bring my ID, fill a single form and give them the fingerprints.
rafram
2 days ago
The process in the US is you open an online form, type in your details, and upload a JPEG of your face! Then you receive a passport in the mail a few weeks later! I would say that is a lot less painful than the Polish process.
wolvoleo
2 days ago
Yes but how do they make sure the person receiving the passport is the right one? That's why we have to do both in person.
rafram
2 days ago
You give them (a scan of) your state ID, or just send in your previous passport if it’s a renewal.
ninalanyon
a day ago
Same in the UK.
buckle8017
3 days ago
There's no fingerprints in the passport.
Edit apparently some but not all EU passports do, which is weird.
RandomLensman
3 days ago
Which EU passports don't (other than below some age, lack of fingers etc.)? For a while some older ones might not have, but not sure if the expiry would still be long enough?
Edit: seems like Ireland is the odd one out (Danemark could, but seems to fingerprint).
user
3 days ago
ExoticPearTree
3 days ago
Some countries in the EU only issue biometric passports only. And they have your fingerprints in them.
Others I imagine issue both types of passports and that's why some people are fingerprinted more often.
miki123211
3 days ago
Which you don't need to do, because the fingerprints are in the passport (cryptographically secure so only an authorized reader can access them, and only when able to OCR the inside of the passport). They're signed by your issuing government, so they're much harder to forge than the physical document.
tokai
3 days ago
To reduce friction of traveling to the US obviously.
RandomLensman
3 days ago
No more waiting in a long immigration queue?
maratc
3 days ago
I assume you would have to wait anyway but the processing of your person would be faster.
With that, I much prefer US immigration queues than EU immigration queues — as of 2026, my US times are much faster than my EU times.
ruszki
3 days ago
It probably matters where, because the longest waiting times were always in the US for me. Especially since digital passports, the queue into the EU is always extremely quick with those, while it’s still the same into the US (at least in Boston and Los Angeles, where I usually land).
phoronixrly
3 days ago
I've always wanted to wait in an ICE concentration camp instead
kalleboo
3 days ago
I would imagine it to match that the biometrics on file with the biometrics presented at the border to catch forgeries?
christoph
3 days ago
Also think espionage/intelligence - those passports won't be forgeries (as they will gov issued), but there will be people travelling around the world with multiple "identities" shall we say, and this is going to make all that much harder.
CPLX
3 days ago
It's not forgery so much as people using the same passport. People look similar.
RandomLensman
3 days ago
Then fingerprints in passport and person shouldn't match, no?
RandomLensman
3 days ago
Is there a high incidence of forgeries?
bluGill
3 days ago
Probably not high, but forgeries are the people of most concern. Most people are honest travelers (either on business or vacation), and will go back home. Most people only commit crimes of the type "I didn't know this thing was illegal here: it is legal and common back home" - and the agent who catches it responds "I find a bunch of you every day who didn't know that - just put it in the destroy bucket and have fun" (technically they can arrest you for trying to bring something illegal in, but they know this is an honest mistake that isn't worth doing anything more about)
The forgeries are rare, but they are also the people customs cares most about. Those people who are planning to commit a serious crime of some sort.
neonstatic
3 days ago
> one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.
Standard practice everywhere in Asia.
thatfrenchguy
3 days ago
You don’t get fingerprints collected on departure, just on arrival. Unless you go through automated gates maybe?
maratc
3 days ago
Not my experience: I’ve been fingerprinted on both the arrival and the departure. There was no automatic gate on the departure, just an officer.
US passport holders only get fingerprinted on the arrival, as I’ve heard.
whimsicalism
3 days ago
wrong
bilekas
3 days ago
> in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.
You absolutely don't. If you've done it once on your passport/ID you don't need to do it again. And infact there are fast track autonomous lanes that you can just scan your EU passport with biometric chip and fly through. (In theory, there's always idiots who don't realise they don't have it)
elAhmo
3 days ago
People without EU citizenship also enter EU.
Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster, and as op has pointed out, people do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country. In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.
bilekas
2 days ago
> Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster
How ?
> People do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country.
If the data hasn't had time to propagate then it's just a flag that you need to do it.
> In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.
Yes, if I arrive in Firenze airport there is maybe 2 people working on the border, if I'm in the Schengen, I don't even need to be checked. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
> People without EU citizenship also enter EU.
Clearly I'm not talking about these cases. You're not from the EU, you need to follow the rules. Sorry.
alistairSH
3 days ago
I just visited Italy. We absolutely passed through biometric scans on arrival and departure from FCO (US passports, vacation so no paper visa).
And then again at DUB outbound (US pre-clearance, so the normal Global Entry kiosk).
All of this was expected. The only thing that surprise me was there was no passport check or any other custom/immigration at Dublin on the inbound leg. We just walked from the arrival gate to the departure gate and that was that.
bilekas
2 days ago
> And then again at DUB outbound (US pre-clearance, so the normal Global Entry kiosk).
Pre clearance from the US means nothing for Ireland, it's also not Schengen.
> The only thing that surprise me was there was no passport check or any other custom/immigration at Dublin on the inbound leg.
Because you've done it on your outbound. Ireland is also a bit more relaxed, but at the same time they can randomely ask you for your papers.
> from the arrival gate to the departure gate
If you don't pass the control, if I'm not wrong you'll never need to be rechecked. The only place it has happened to me within EU was between Ireland -> Germany -> Greece. Probably because Ireland isn't Schengen
jltsiren
3 days ago
Ireland is not in Schengen, so you were doing an international-to-international transfer. You normally don't have to go through immigration and customs for those, unless there are specific legal requirements or the airport is poorly organized.
alistairSH
2 days ago
Sure, but we went down the same hallway as everybody who was stopping in Ireland. There was just a sign at passport check with an arrow that said go on by. If I had wanted to stay in Ireland, I could’ve just walked out of the airport.
lazide
3 days ago
Dublin is amazingly chill with passport/visa/immigration.
I once needed an actual stamp in my passport, and the agent literally apologized to me for taking up the space. I thought she might be messing with me, but not, entirely serious.
input_sh
3 days ago
With the introduction of EES system (whose implementation was completed only a few months ago), the full data of non-EU citizens gets collected the first time we enter the EU and then we have to verify it every subsequent time.
Not much of a hassle at airports due to the availability of self-service kiosks, somewhat of a hassle when crossing with a car, and infuriatingly annoying when using a mass transit option like a bus or a train where everyone has to step outside and wait in line to do that, adding about 20-30 minutes to the border crossing.
alistairSH
2 days ago
We used the EES system in Italy, I think (cattle gates with passport scan and photo). The line was still pretty long and slow. Mostly because people couldn’t figure out how to get their passport scanned properly or they weren’t looking at the camera or any number of other things that there were signs explaining what to do and people just couldn’t be bothered doing it correctly
smallstepforman
3 days ago
I wish it was 20-30 minutes. Try 2-3 hours.
input_sh
3 days ago
Definitely depends on the ratio of first time visitors since the introduction of the EES system (whose data needs collecting) vs returning visitors (whose data only needs verifying). I was going by my last experience, but I waited way longer than an hour in the past.
maratc
2 days ago
I don't think that "collecting" vs "verifying" thing practically differs in anything (except for maybe intent that I don't really care for).
They printed four of my fingers the first time (presumably for "collecting") and the same four fingers the second time (presumably for "verifying"), so it was the same procedure, taking the same time. Taking a picture of me also took the same time in both cases (I had to position myself in the frame "just right".)
With that, it should take the same time "collecting" from X people as it would "verifying" X people, and so the ratio of "first-time" visitors is irrelevant.
encoderer
3 days ago
Flew into CDG two days ago. US citizens. Passport control did not take fingerprints from any of us.
andai
3 days ago
>As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now.
Does this also apply if you arrive by dinghy?
lazide
3 days ago
We must close this dinghy gap!
greatgib
2 days ago
First it could be something depending on you enrolling like airport fastpass and second it would be a feature that it is complicated for both side to record and process the info so that they have the incentive to do the minimum possible.
But don't be naive, clearly US is not pushing so strong on this feature that it is clearly not just to facilitate your travel and reduce processing time but because they know that they will be able to tap as a friser in the best biometric database of foreign citizens that they could.
charlieyu1
3 days ago
I’m just annoyed at all the visa-free claims while they charge you and you need a pre-approval anyway.
MarceliusK
3 days ago
[dead]
jjgreen
3 days ago
You missed the third option: don't go to the US.
drstewart
3 days ago
You missed a fourth option: renounce your European citizenship
maratc
3 days ago
... or to EU, or to UK, or to anywhere at all. Just stay at home.
nacnud
3 days ago
Obligatory reference to "Remain Indoors" sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnd1jKcfBRE
cassianoleal
3 days ago
What if home is one of those places? :panic:
surgical_fire
3 days ago
There's a third option - Not going to the US. It is my preferred option.
meta_gunslinger
3 days ago
Virtue signal received.
bluGill
3 days ago
Does the EU really collect that, or only sometimes? I know the EU reserves the right to collect all that, but do they in practice?
I haven't been to the EU in a decade, but last time I was there I was standing in the customs line for non-EU residents and someone official saw my US passport in hand and directed me to the much shorter/faster EU citizens line. I walked right through customs without being checked at all.
iso1631
3 days ago
Its changed in the last year or so. Officially it started in October 2025, it's been a bit of a disaster in terms of implementation. It's called the Entry/Exit System (EES)
I've had my fingerprints taken every time I've been to the US, although not always all the fingers every time, presumably on subsequent visits if you have passport + right hand matches, they don't bother scanning left hand or thumbs.
I've certainly had the full scan on multiple occasions though.
artisinal
3 days ago
Also good to know that EES is implemented by the private company Thales.
user
3 days ago
zamadatix
3 days ago
The last few trip I've taken through Europe this year have changed to the new fingerprinting system.
akdev1l
3 days ago
Yes they have biometric collection stations now.
mothballed
3 days ago
The EU is very sporadic. I walked straight into Sweden from a flight from Iraq and customs was not even there, and passport control waved everyone through with the most cursory of glances.
lp4v4n
3 days ago
I'm not sure the customs official knows where you came from (unless they explicitly ask, of course), because in my experience normally you get off the airplane and join a common queue. I think your passport counts a lot more when it comes to how strict the scrutiny is going to be. I'm assuming you're American, if you had an Iraqi passport, maybe you would have to answer a few more questions.
bojan
3 days ago
Not the EU, but I once accidentally entered Switzerland in the Zürich airport. The passport counter was unmanned and the doorway next to it was open, so I assumed there is another checkpoint somewhere further.
When a guy started chasing after me 30 seconds later I realized my assumption was wrong. But there really wasn't a way to know.
saturn8601
3 days ago
10 years ago I walked right past the French immigration officer by accident because I didn't know where I was going. He yelled at me to get back in line, quickly stamped my passport and then shooed my along. EU has become a lot more like the US. I'd probably been detained if I had done that in the US. Last year visiting Switzerland they had these machines that auto adjust a camera to your height and there was no way you were going past the barriers by accident so you are getting your photo taken.
Things have changed in the last 10 years. I recalled from 2016, while some countries like Sweden were super strict about entry/departure (lady manually counted number of days on passport) others had been so lax it was comical: France would take one quick glance at you and stamp the passport, Ireland would at least test if you could answer a simple question with the stamp already pre positioned on the passport upon answering said question.
I presume this electronic system finally accounts for all of these differences and provides a minimum standard for exit/entry. Now it being digitized there is no wiggle room on exit/entry. Frankly with how lousy US exit/entry seems for foreigners, I don't mind the EU wanting to maintain strict standards for visitors to their borders as well. I wouldn't even mind them being extra rough on us Americans. Its totally understandable. Preferably take all the US diplomat passports to a back room as well while they are at it.
dizhn
3 days ago
About the same time ago I walked out of the airport in Tel Aviv and a military guy with an assault rifle asked to see my passport. This was after having gone through passport and customs checks inside of course. :)
traceroute66
3 days ago
> Now it being digitized there is no wiggle room on exit/entry.
Yes. Because the primary issue is it was too easy to fly under the radar once you were in the Schengen zone.
Also in 2026 there are security threats which means tighter borders is a necessity.
Clearly in 2026, the easiest way to achieve compliance at all Schengen borders accross 29 countries is to digitise it, including biometrics.
Yes, to put it politely, there have been "teething issues" in its implementation. But given the sheer scale of the change, that is only to be expected. I think any of us working in tech would agree that it would be delusional to think such a thing would be perfect from day zero.
saturn8601
3 days ago
Well just to clarify as I am not sure if you understood what I am saying but when I said wiggle room I was referring to the different standards of enforcement applied by different countries. This is why I gave personal anecdotes. Im sure all EU countries have days where enforcement is strict and other days where enforcement is more lax. The problems implementing the digital system are a problem but it is a separate issue from the intended design goals of the system. Namely now you have a minimum layer of immigration enforcement across the union given that it is a unified digitized system. It is still more fair and straightforward than the US system and I commend them for setting a minimum standard that I hope others can aspire to. I am unsure about the privacy implications. It is a tough subject to think about. It was nice not having to have any stress going through immigration a year ago. But that is my bias as a young person feeling anxious of first traveling to Europe and being excited for seeing the countries and meeting the unique people for the first time.