The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

92 pointsposted 8 hours ago
by pseudolus
(cbc.ca)

54 Comments

netcan

7 hours ago

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are.

IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization:

(a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great teacher is the ultimate lever. But great teachers in every class, with enough time and energy to invest in every student... very hard to achieve at national scale.

(b) Voluntary, self-motivated students who want to learn vs checked-out teenagers that just want to pass the exam with minimum effort... it's a massive difference. It's the difference between a world class gymnastics club and the PE class from an 80s teen movie. Even if half the class is highly motivated, it can't be like the gymnastics club when half the class is there involuntarily.

The visionary, optimistic concepts are usually focused on what students can achieve when motivated and willing. Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude.

(c) The bureaucracy required for scale. Decisions about teaching methods, standardized testing and whatnot... these can be performing terribly for years and decades before getting dropped. A department starts judging schools or teachers by standardized tests... and then a whole generation falls into a stale "teaching to the test" paradigm that disillusions both teacher and student.

"Why are we doing this" - because we have to.

obscurette

4 hours ago

> Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude.

As a former teacher I think that's very common, but a fatal error to assume that it's something that it's up to education to achieve this at all. It's up to student to decide what they want to achieve, what their motivation is, whether they are motivated at all etc. The point of education have always been to provide students tools.

Btw, what makes a great teacher? One of my most influential teachers was universally hated by the rest of the class.

bluGill

4 hours ago

As a taxpayer and citizen, there are good reasons I want every kid to achieve great education results. The fact that it is probably impossible, is irrelevant. I want that. This is why we have universal education in most countries.

Despite the fact that the results aren't what they could be in an ideal world where every student is motivated, the results are much better than any place where education is not universal.

obscurette

4 hours ago

Yes. And that's why universal education has been success and why a modern idea of education – "let's find out everyone individual needs are, adjust to these, show how cool it is to think critically etc" – is such a disaster.

bluGill

3 hours ago

Eventually, though, we do need to say that we need to specialize. To become a great musician, you need to spend hours and hours practicing every day. There isn't time to also be a great physicist if you're going to be a great mathematician. Well, maybe you could be both, but it means you have zero free time at all to spend on things like having a social life is one point of life.

Still, until you're in your mid-teens, your needs are not much different from anyone else. You need to get the basics of education which are the same for everyone. As you get to your late teens, you need to start figuring out what your specialty is going to be and start moving in that direction.

I feel it's important to make this distinction because otherwise it's too easy to be arguing past each other when people don't realize that there are different stages of life that do have different needs.

obscurette

2 hours ago

Good point. As a former highschool teacher, I tend to think on this (K12 in US terms?) level, but of course universal higher education wouldn't work. Some comments though. In my experience this point in life when people will figure out their direction varies wildly. I had classmates who figured it out in their early teens and others who found their way in late twenties. And even more important point against specializing too early - some of them had already three careers (I'm in my sixties). Times change, jobs disappear and strong universal foundation helps enormously if you have to start a new career.

netcan

3 hours ago

I'm not sure that is the modern idea of education. As you can see in the linked example, it's there 200 years ago at the sunrise of universal and education. I'm sure it was there when Aristotle taught Alexander.

I think we can just call that "good" education vs.. the best we can do.

If you are thinking about the individual, you are going to be thinking about individualization... Like the coach of a gymnastics team, chess club or whatnot.

I agree that from a societal, governmental or taxpayer pov... It's different. That is the "true" perspective if you are doing national policy, which is why that "woke stuff" is so often a disaster when applied to national education systems.

But... as a student or parent... not thinking about it individualistically is pretty pathological.

TimByte

6 hours ago

Mandatory education is still probably better than the alternative but it does seem to create a constant tension: the system has to serve students who want very different things from it

WillAdams

5 hours ago

The solution would seem to be a flexible system which identifies and works with the needs of each student.

A school system I attended when I was young divided classes between academic and social --- social classes were attended at one's age level, academic classes were attended at a student's ability levels, I believe that there were also trade school tracks, prompted by students taking Sloyd Woodworking claseses:

https://rainfordrestorations.com/tag/sloyd/

bluGill

4 hours ago

While there is a point that on balance I have to disagree, there are a lot of things I want students to achieve that are just hard and they won't be motivated to. I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that. For that matter, most of it was forgotten by now, but it was hard to learn how to read. Most students wouldn't learn how to read if they were not forced to at some point.

Which is to say, the vast majority of students are not different. There are some much below average kids who need a lot of help but never will reach anything, but the vast majority are very close to average and we don't need particularly anything better for them than anyone else. What we need is to give the programs we give to the most gifted students to the less gifted students because they would benefit from the same attention

ndriscoll

an hour ago

The neat thing about stratifying by ability is that it doesn't require any additional resources or special programs. If you have 20 teachers in a school, you divide the student population into roughly 5%-wide ability bands instead of roughly 5%-wide age cohorts with random ability, and that's it.

Mastery learning is also more effective than moving on with knowledge gaps, so this should be expected to raise everyone's outcomes.

pstuart

3 hours ago

> I want every student to have a good education in math, even though it is hard to do that.

That's a laudable goal but I think it backfires in practice: a lot of students struggle with math and consider it to be torture, and will rarely require the skills and insights that learning algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and calculus will offer. Having done that work I find that I use very little of it in my day to day life (personally and professionally (as a programmer)).

I'm not suggesting that path be eliminated, only that it be an expected track for those interested in a STEM career.

For those who are not, just teaching them math literacy that can be used in contemporary daily life (some statistics, math reasoning (investments and debts), etc.

I love math -- it's the language of the universe! But it shouldn't be used to torture kids who will only learn to say "I hate math".

WillAdams

2 hours ago

I would argue even the kids on the trade class track would need math:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30685840-practical-shop-...

pstuart

an hour ago

Sure, my point wasn't to disparage math or its value -- simply that there are 2 distinct tracts that should be followed:

1. STEM: To Calculus and beyond

2. Everyone else: math for mere mortals; practical applied mathematics where every bit of it contains a "here's where it's gonna help you" payoff.

WillAdams

an hour ago

The thing is, I've had shop projects where algebra was quite useful.

fasterik

3 hours ago

>IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization

Liberalism is fundamentally a universalist idea. I mean "liberal" in the original sense: the cultivation of free and indepdendent human beings capable of governing themselves. A democratic society can't survive for long without universal liberal education.

We need to distinguish between education and the education system. You make good points that the system as it is today doesn't scale as much as we might like. But that doesn't mean we should abandon the goal of universal education. Unfortunately, I think the solution requires something much broader and deeper than more schools and more teachers. It requires a culture that values learning and independent thinking, parents who bring up children who are curious and willing to learn, and institutions that uphold these values in society.

We made a lot of progress over the past few centuries, but now there's an increasing number of people who want to question and undermine the core values of liberalism and replace them with something either more elitist, more authoritarian, or both.

sandworm101

5 hours ago

It is naive to think that gradeschool is all about education when it serves so many other social functions. Firstly, it is free daily child care, a concept that allows parents to be more productive workers. A school is the point where various government agencies have contact with children. Vacinations, nutrition and the general welfare of kids is daily inspected. If a kid is in trouble, a teacher is the most likely government employee to notice. But perhaps most importantly, school is a testing ground. Our society doesnt have the resources to turn everyone into doctors and astronauts. School is where we start sorting out who will be granted access to future education and who will not. It isnt about actually learning anything.

Aeolun

4 hours ago

> It isnt about actually learning anything.

It is definitely appreciated if you actually learn something there, and often required to earn any of the goodies.

mcsniff

5 hours ago

And this is exactly why people are, have been, and should continue to opt out and/or opt in if they choose.

I appreciate your comment doesn't try to state if these are good or bad things, just that they are.

NoMoreNicksLeft

3 hours ago

So, your take is that schools are:

1. Free government daycare

2. Inspection/interference with parenting

3. Surveillance towards prosecuting negligent parents

4. Evaluation of conscripts

I think I agree 100%. It is exactly those things, even if I can't be so cheerful as you about it. That's why my children have never stepped foot inside a school.

Zenbit_UX

38 minutes ago

There was no cheer in the comment you’re replying to, just facts. The fact that you misinterpreted that is strange.

The fact that you have strong feelings about having your children reviewed by other adults for signs of abuse and neglect is stranger.

You do understand how children are vulnerable and parents aren’t always reliable, yes?

Homeschooling your children can be done well, in theory. However the majority of the time it’s done by imbeciles for religious, political or pseudo-medical reasons and results in children far less educated than the system you criticize and who are also imbeciles.

This is a form of abuse that will destroy a child’s potential far more readily than the four core elements above that you seem to be protesting.

jona-f

6 hours ago

Having grown up in Germany I have firsthand experience how Humboldt's ideals fall short. I don't think I fully agree your explanation.

a) Teachers themselves went through this system, so if it's so great, it should produce plenty of great teachers

b) Now we are blaming the kids for the failure of the system?

c) Yes, absolutely, but is the bureaucracy really inevitable, or is it even contradictory to the original idea?

Anyhow, Humboldt's humanism was ideology from the start. It was a way to change as little as possible from christian values. Instead of God making humans all great now it is the great human mind and civilization.

By now, most of German academia is a bubble for humanistic fundamentalists, that have long lost their connection to reality.

DoctorOetker

5 hours ago

After WWI, the "Great War", everyone thought it was the final war, and would never be repeated. (So no profound changes in the educational system were applied).

After WWII, and observing how it could occur despite the recent occurrence of WWI, it was decided to put extra focus on the horrors of war in Western Europe.

Both on allied as well as axis side, sure, but especially on axis educational systems.

Having grown up in Belgium, I can confirm that the never-ending stream of unprompted details of the horrors of WWI and WWII were not exactly "fun" part of education, but hey at least we haven't been lobbing chemicals at each other for the last ~80 years, so at least it seems to work, here, locally in Western Europe, despite all the side-effects of such an education.

That said, I don't feel confident that any insights that may truly improve education in Western Europe (without losing the pacifying -as in peace generating- benefits somehow) would apply well to educational systems elsewhere, because a large fraction of negative side effects in Western European education stem precisely from the educational pivot after WWII.

Aeolun

4 hours ago

What’s so terrible about the WW1 (industrial warfare) and WW2 (industrial extermination) curricula taught in Europe? I don’t think they’re designed to be fun. Quite the opposite.

elcritch

4 hours ago

It’s sad to me after reading stories like this how much Western societies have generally lost the pursuit of Bildung (wisdom, virtue) that shaped men like Wilhelm von Humboldt's.

I’ve come to firmly believe that a society which looses the pursuit of the noble in the individual in exchange for mere technological excellence will in the long run loose technical ability as well.

It’s not even about a religious ideals, but secular ones as well. Really any belief system that puts the onus on individuals to pursue nobleness, as opposed to the more empty “reforming society” or “fixing society” that universities in particular appear fixated on currently.

Reminds me of CS Lewis’ critiques our modern age in “Abolition of Man” who critiqued it very well.

Of course we see this tension of education of the individual vs mass indoctrination in most western public school systems. TFA was a good read, as I’d always assumed and read that universal education was created as just a tool for mass indoctrination for obedient workers.

itsamario

4 hours ago

Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness.

Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place.

When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.

supertroop

3 hours ago

We went from critical thinking to only some people can participate in society in the blink of an eye. What if you’re one of the people deemed too dumb? Did that ever occur to you?

SteveGerencser

31 minutes ago

I'm fine with a simple, basic test to be able to vote. 5 T/F questions, you only need to get 3 right to vote. Basics. Is the earth flat? Did humans land on the moon? Do brown cows produce chocolate milk? You know, the basics. If I couldn't pass such a test, I should not be allowed to vote.

zkmon

4 hours ago

I have a different view from a developing country.

Those were great ideals and pristine origins of schooling. But somewhere post-industrialization, schooling turned into training camps that would suck away the youth from their families, villages and rural professions, into work that would power the clerical and factory jobs. It was called nation building, economy work, office work, machine work, transport work etc. But the effect was, villages and families were broken.

The nation building happened at the cost of family separation, uprooting of people and families from their native locations, suffering hectic work schedules in alien lands. That's the gift of schooling and higher education.

I have a cousin who escaped schooling when he was 8. He ran away from the town where he was put into school, walked 25 kilometers in the night to reach our village. He never went back to school. Looking back, I would rate his life quality and achievements far better that those of us who went through all the tough exams, roamed around the globe, worked too hard to be in the job etc. he doesn't know about internet, but his health and happiness are far superior due to sticking to his home and farm.

pacbard

7 hours ago

My first reaction is that it depends on who you read.

The linked article talks about Wilhelm von Humboldt's philosophy of education. While I haven't read much into 19th-century German literature, the article seems to suggest that a national education system is foundational in nation building and, possibly on-brand romanticism, that the final goal of education is to produce "independent, critical thinkers".

The same ideals have driven the initial push for public schooling in the United States (which happened at the same time at least in the big East Coast cities). However, with the expansion west, schooling became more of an assimilation instrument, where the preparation of "informed citizens" became more of the goal. This led to public school clashes with established religious schools (mostly Catholic in Chicago and in California), which then resulted in a full separation between public and religious school funding.

The goal of education seemed to have changed with the beginning of the 20th century and the push for universal high school. Powell, Farrar, & Cohen argue in "Shopping Mall High School"[^1] that universal secondary education forced schools to become more “consumer-oriented" by offering classes and activities (i.e., sports) that would keep students in school until 18, while compromising with their original ideals to prepare citizens or critical thinkers.

[^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_mall_high_school

TimByte

6 hours ago

That may be why the rhetoric of education stays lofty while the day-to-day machinery often feels much more pragmatic

synecdoche

8 hours ago

I've heard the opposite. That is was designed and based on military organisation and for individuals to conform to the contemporary world view.

speak_plainly

8 hours ago

This is true. While Humboldt designed the overarching structure of the school, Johann Gottlieb Fichte argued that Prussia lost to Napoleon because they were too individualistic and was able to influence ideas of early education in those schools. The aim, through Fichte, became a system designed to break parental bonds, who he believed filled kids heads with selfish, private interests, and in turn, the goal of education was to develop children into workers and soldiers. Fichte famously suggested that a proper education should destroy a student's free will so thoroughly that they could never choose to do anything other than what the state required.

EffectFeisty627

7 hours ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto Gatto asserts the following regarding what school does to children in Dumbing Us Down:

    It confuses the students. It presents an incoherent ensemble of information that the child needs to memorize to stay in school. Apart from the tests and trials, this programming is similar to the television; it fills almost all the "free" time of children. One sees and hears something, only to forget it again.
    It teaches them to accept their class affiliation.
    It makes them indifferent.
    It makes them emotionally dependent.
    It makes them intellectually dependent.
    It teaches them a kind of self-confidence that requires constant confirmation by experts (provisional self-esteem).
    It makes it clear to them that they cannot hide, because they are always supervised.[

TimByte

6 hours ago

Maybe the real lesson is that public education has always had both impulses: emancipation and formation on one hand, conformity and state needs on the other

loloquwowndueo

7 hours ago

Got any references for this? It’s pretty interesting, would like to know more.

steve1977

8 hours ago

Part of the problem might be that the terms are not used in the same way in the Anglosphere and in Germany.

In Germany, the Prussian Reforms refer to what is described in the article and attributed to Wilhelm von Humboldt, this was in the late 18th century.

What you are probably referring to is the Generallandschulreglement by Johan Johann Julius Hecker under Frederick the Great. This was published in 1763, around 40 years before von Humboldt.

mdp2021

8 hours ago

Well, where. Of course the Philosopher and the Dictator will have different positions on the matter. The thing is that (1) there is a dialectic between the two perspectives and that (2) in actual historical instances different parties will have had more space for action.

steephax

8 hours ago

Yes, there's a nice explanation of its origins in Moonwalking with Einstein.

TimByte

6 hours ago

I think both can be true, depending on which layer of the system you're looking at

breezybottom

6 hours ago

Oh, well if you've heard it, then it must be true. Especially if ChatGPT said it.

logicchains

8 hours ago

The article addresses this:

"Yet over the years, as Humboldt's public education system was adopted, modified and spread around the world, Bildung — the cultivation of our human potential — may well have been the critical piece left out.

Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost."

lmf4lol

7 hours ago

I was just reading Schillers letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man. It made me sad that we have such profound insight available on beauty and a fulfilling life, and still produce a school system that is completely contrary to a proper human existence.

I also vividly recall pg’s reflections on the school system in Hackers and Founders. He was spot on with his observations and still is. My own experience made so much more sense. He wrote that a decade ago it hink. Still, Nothing changed!

I have two daughters. One just finished primary school and the second is halfway through primary. Its a disaster. They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? My wife home schools them additionally, so that they learn proper reading, math, history & art. Its sad that this is necessary. My daughters excel now all tests obviously but its frightening to see how low the average skill level of their peers is. there are 12 year olds who cant read a paragraph or do simple maths in their head. They dont know anything about the history of the country.. Its terrifying that this is the future generation. They need to carry the torch after all.

And its not the kids fault. WE as a society failed them!!!!

ps i am from Amsterdam, NL btw

Aurornis

6 hours ago

> They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why???

I am not in Amsterdam, but this seems very unexpectedly wrong. For as much as people complain about the US education system, I’ve been amazed watching how early my kids and friends’ kids at various schools around here have picked up reading and math. They’re learning these things earlier than I did as a child and earlier than I thought they would in the school system.

That’s not to say that every school is perfect, but it’s all been so much better than I would have expected from the extreme negative sentiment that I read online. The only explanation I can come up with is that school quality varies by a wide range from school to school or region to region, maybe more than the tests and statistics can show.

Aeolun

4 hours ago

I think this is a thing in the Netherlands, where schools are almost painfully standardized. It only matters to a degree which primary school you go to, you’ll have more or less the same education.

lmf4lol

4 hours ago

we had a pretty good education system. But it got much more worse in the last decade(s).

And this is not only my personal anecdote, There are numerous studies on this. One for instance, that really shook me, reported that around 1/3 of graduates from the “practical level” of secondary school cant tell you what a newspaper article was about after reading it. And this was not the case “back in the days”.

Germany has the same problem btw. They perform less and less well at all kinds of standardized tests. Just like the Dutch.

So there is sth seriously wrong!

Aeolun

4 hours ago

> reported that around 1/3 of graduates from the “practical level” of secondary school cant tell you what a newspaper article was about after reading it

I feel like this has more to do with motivation than lack of understanding. They could, but that would require them to actually read it, and that is effort that is better spent elsewhere.

rramadass

5 hours ago

Also relevant:

Talks to Teachers on Psychology: And to Students on some of Life's Ideals by William James - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16287/16287-h/16287-h.htm

What William James Still Teaches Us About Teaching: A Reflective Look at "Talks to Teachers" in Ed Psych Today - https://www.nzlamb.org/blog/what-william-james-still-teaches...

This 19th-Century Book Is Still Timely for Teachers - https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-this-19th-c...

William James’s pragmatism in education, from experiential learning to global application - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2331186X.2026.2...