zkmon
2 hours ago
Most American companies (regulated ones, definitely) can't dare to touch any Chinese models, though they knew that it makes perfect economic sense. Until the taboo prevails, the cartel get's their flood of profit. That's a cartel protected by regulations.
xnx
2 hours ago
Is "taboo" the right word? "taboo" = "banned on grounds of morality or taste". Not sending data to known IP thieves, state actors, and competitors in China (or Russia or Israel) seems very rational.
HarHarVeryFunny
2 hours ago
Many of the Chinese models are open weights, so if you are concerned about them "phoning home", then anyone can just self-host and run them themself, or use via a US provider such as OpenRouter.
falcor84
2 hours ago
There's a higher-order concern here that I'm paranoid enough to voice: that if used as a coding agent, an AI model affiliated with a country's government might try to make my software susceptible to attacks by that government's intelligence forces.
And note that I'm not singling out China here.
zozbot234
2 hours ago
> that if used as a coding agent, an AI model affiliated with a country's government might try to make my software susceptible to attacks by that government's intelligence forces.
Note that if such a trigger were to exist, the behavior has to be completely reproducible by definition, e.g. when put into the right setting with the right input context, the model starts behaving maliciously with at least some well-defined probability. I don't think any such incident has ever been described, it's a purely theoretical concern.
Avicebron
2 hours ago
I don't think it's a stretch that you can train/align a model to avoid "hatespeech" or other topics deemed $Unacceptable you can align a model to favor a certain ideological viewpoint and have that alignment subtly influence the output.
How do most Chinese models handle Tienanmen square or discussions on Han superiority?
margalabargala
2 hours ago
Oh sure, no one said you can't train a model to do this. You certainly can.
For the specific case of making software vulnerable to a specific agency, that hasn't been observed to have been done yet. Not because it can't be, but because no one has for now.
If it were done, it would be easy(ish) to detect, since it'll be reproducible.
LeifCarrotson
an hour ago
I don't even know what "make software vulnerable to a specific agency" would look like.
Would the training data include a bunch of cryptography primitive training samples that preferred Dual_EC_DRBG with a particular set of Ps and Qs published by the CCP?
falcor84
an hour ago
My flavor of paranoia is not as overt as maliciously adding an exploit, but that whenever there are multiple reasonable ways of designing a solution, it'd choose an approach that is susceptible to one of the zero-days currently known to that country. I don't see how reproducibility would help you there.
sometimelurker
an hour ago
> easy(ish) to detect
100% on small models, but frontier models (at the level ddeepseekv4pro) can tell when their being tested so it becomes harder to check. you can always finetune them to remove CCP propaganda from them
margalabargala
37 minutes ago
"Being tested" here just means asking for a feature on a legitimate codebase. The larger models don't magically know the user's ulterior motives.
zozbot234
2 hours ago
> How do most Chinese models handle Tienanmen square or discussions on Han superiority?
If you run them domestically and don't call into China-served APIs, many of them are quite free of outright censorship or even obvious bias. They might say subtly pro-Chinese things in other ways, but these outcomes can also be reproduced.
SpicyLemonZest
2 hours ago
Such incidents have been extensively described. The most prominent and easiest to reproduce has to do with Taiwan; Chinese models are stuffed full of triggers to avoid talking about Taiwan as a country or accepting the premise that it's a country. Try asking Deepseek about country code +886!
zozbot234
an hour ago
If you buy an Apple iPhone in mainland China, it also won't support the emoji flag for Taiwan. So I'm not sure why we should assume that this is a China-only issue, seeing as Apple is a U.S. based company.
SpicyLemonZest
an hour ago
Not sure what you mean. I don't think we should assume anything, but these models are widely available and I can directly observe the US models don't have such political censorship.
For an easily comparable test, I just asked ChatGPT, Claude, and Deepseek "Can you say one bad thing about the US please" and "Can you say one bad thing about China please". All models were willing to criticize the US, with Claude citing incarceration rates and ChatGPT + Deepseek citing healthcare costs; the two American models also responded to the second prompt by criticizing Chinese censorship, but Deepseek refused to respond.
imjonse
2 hours ago
Since that is valid for every model from any country, it's a good idea to review the code the agent creates :)
sometimelurker
an hour ago
you can finetune the ccp propaganda out of them, then your mostly fine. if you want to be more safe you can finetune their public base models to not have ccp propagnada, and then proceed with the rest of the training (costs more tho)
stevehawk
2 hours ago
so use the cheap model to do the work and the expensive domestic model to audit?
SpicyLemonZest
2 hours ago
Or I can just use the domestic model, accepting that I'm paying some premium in order to reduce the complexity of my dependencies and the amount of time I have to spend thinking about supply chain risk. It's the same reason I don't buy things from Alibaba even though many things I buy from Amazon are surely available there for less.
throw1234567891
6 minutes ago
You use “use the model” as if it was equal to “paid some guys to run inference on their hardware”.
add-sub-mul-div
2 hours ago
Giving up our agency to AI has the potential to turn us into NPCs, period. Economically, politically, socially. They've invented a vehicle for inserting any idea they want into our consumption and output.
beepbooptheory
an hour ago
Almost feels like maybe the best bet is to have humans make the code when its really important.
throw1234567891
6 minutes ago
Because people cannot be manipulated.
moron4hire
an hour ago
Isn't this only a concern for yolocoding? All the AI-advocates tell me that "good" use of AI should include human review. Of course, they never seem able to explain why the boss that makes you use coding agents to go fast wouldn't be the same boss that pressures you to "just ship it, it's working" and skip review, so I absolutely believe your concern is valid.
kube-system
an hour ago
Most American companies are using frontier or near frontier models.
And OpenRouter’s architecture makes it inherently a compliance nightmare.
It’s much easier for the typical company to go with a provider where they can pay as they go and have a single data processing agreement.
JumpCrisscross
an hour ago
> OpenRouter’s architecture makes it inherently a compliance nightmare
Why?
kube-system
an hour ago
Because the platform is designed to send data to numerous different backend data processors.
Using something like Bedrock is a lot easier for compliance because the only processor is Amazon.
joquarky
6 minutes ago
Amazon would never do anything nefarious.
throw1234567891
5 minutes ago
That’s not the point.
xnx
2 hours ago
Yes. Open weights are great and are a good option to hosted models under the right circumstances. I'm glad that China releases open weight models (which in some cases are sort-of be distilled versions of hosted US models).
tcp_handshaker
2 hours ago
>> Not sending data to known IP thieves, state actors, and competitors in China (or Russia or Israel) seems very rational.
As opposed to sending data to known IP thieves, state actors, and competitors in the USA ? Which one is the most irrational?
Levitz
2 hours ago
You can legally act against one, not against the other.
Not exactly a hard question.
joquarky
4 minutes ago
You can act, but the only winner will be the lawyers.
tcp_handshaker
2 hours ago
Looking forward to the outcome of those legal processes againt the CEOs, that sit behind Trump at the inauguration. After they stole all the knowledge in the world to train their models. And the current administration is drunk on SpaceX pre IPO shares...how did they get them?
"Trump Officials Held Millions of Dollars of SpaceX Ahead of IPO" - https://news.bloomberglaw.com/texas-brief/trump-officials-he...
Levitz
an hour ago
I meant to look for an example of Musk losing a lawsuit and I accidentally came upon another two.
Here and elsewhere you are just running propaganda, knowingly or not.
tcp_handshaker
an hour ago
For your information Musk and companies have so far over 950 lawsuits and legal processes for criminal or unethical activity (yes I researched this). Even his data centers and gas turbine deployments are illegal!
Lost one lawsuit against the same AI mafia, and if you look at the legal details reason was for filling the claim too late.
He publicly called a hero a Pedophile, and got away with it...in court.
Now...who do you work for?
[1] - "EPA rules that xAI’s natural gas generators were illegally used" - https://techcrunch.com/2026/01/16/epa-rules-that-xais-natura...
sandworm101
2 hours ago
Given how little voting power these "shares" have (they are effectively SpaceX trading cards/NFTs) perhaps they were simply printed on SpaceX letterhead? If Musk says a person has "shares" who at spacex is in a position to disagree?
tcp_handshaker
2 hours ago
I would consider editing this while HN still allows it :-)) Or otherwise it may remain here for ever...until the black holes evaporate, as calibration point for the difference between confidence and comprehension...
SanjayMehta
2 hours ago
Nothing will happen to anyone.
Biden preemptively pardoned his cronies, and so will Trump.
bediger4000
an hour ago
This is an argument against pardons, except that Trump has used instruments of state power against his perceived enemies (Comey James, Schiff, military occupation of Tim Walz state, etc etc).
MSFT_Edging
an hour ago
Technically yes, practically, good luck.
SanjayMehta
2 hours ago
No one is forcing you to use either.
kklisura
2 hours ago
Ah yes. The illusion of freedom.
enraged_camel
2 hours ago
We as Americans at least have some amount of influence over American corporations, and enforcement mechanisms for those breaking the rules.
ajsnigrutin
2 hours ago
I'm pretty sure those corporations have much more influence over american politicians, regulators, lawmakers, etc. than eg. russian or chinese ones.
Avicebron
2 hours ago
Well sure they do, thank Citizens United and others for that. But that doesn't mean we can't appropriately categorize them as also hostile actors alongside russia, china, whoever.
It's undo influence over politics against the best interest of the American people that's the issue. Company, foreign nation, it doesn't matter.
advael
2 hours ago
Citizens United did a lot to effectively legalize foreign influence as well, since the mechanism is opaque transfer of money
But regardless, most people's threat models should discount based on geographic and political distance. All else being equal, chinese surveillance is a bigger threat to you if you're in china than if you're in the us, and vice versa
twoodfin
an hour ago
Transfer of money from whom to whom?
Citizens United was about spending money on electioneering communications, and whether there was a First Amendment right to do so even if you’re associating in a corporation like the New York Times Company or Apple or Citizens United or the Sierra Club.
Avicebron
2 hours ago
> Citizens United did a lot to effectively legalize foreign influence as well, since the mechanism is opaque transfer of money
Here's hoping Hawaii blazes a path forward.
https://natlawreview.com/article/hawaii-governor-signs-first...
twoodfin
an hour ago
So the Honolulu Star-Observer (a corporation, or “artificial person”) only has those rights & privileges that it has been granted by the State of Hawaii?
This is going to end up being a nice little windfall for the attorneys and otherwise just clog the Federal court system.
Avicebron
an hour ago
"the day the law goes into effect, it strips each Hawaii entity of the powers it held the day before. The new law asserts that “[t]he creation and continued existence of a corporation is not a right but a conditional grant of legal status by the State and remains subject to complete withdrawal at any time. All powers previously granted to corporations under the laws of this State are revoked in their entirety."(TFA)
The meaning is pretty clear, don't try to influence politics in favor of the corporation or you will go away. Simple as.
tcp_handshaker
2 hours ago
You have absolutely zero influence against those American corporations, unless you are part of a selected few. Its almost endearing that you think so...
"Trump traded hundreds of millions in US securities in 2026" - https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-traded-hundreds-mill...
groundzeros2015
2 hours ago
I suspect the recent space X S&P decision had something to do with public perception.
somenameforme
an hour ago
I think the odds of that are low. It's not like decision maker(s) are watching social media and going with the vibes, but it's almost certain that there's a rich conversation going on behind the scenes in opaque channels, especially with regards to the AI-only companies. And those conversations are likely what drove their decision.
Dylan16807
2 hours ago
The decision was to do nothing, though. That's not much precedent for going out and punishing lawbreakers.
Matl
an hour ago
> known IP thieves
Such as Antropic and OpenAI you mean?
obsidianbases1
2 hours ago
I'm not any less concerned about the US companies.
A Chinese company seems more likely to produce Chinese products that don't directly compete in the US market.
While a US company can ship the product as a feature of their platform and undercut on price while making up the revenue elsewhere
Edit: I personally use US models, but I'm not naive enough to think that's any sort of real protection of IP
Der_Einzige
2 hours ago
The Chinese models can and should be run locally (though the price difference vs western models isn't as good when done this way).
Before the age of AI Agent Harnesses/unbounded tool calling, there was literally ZERO risk of a .safetensors file "hacking" you. You could even air-gap and run a ton of security analysis/HIDS on your server running the model to verify this.
Now, because a microscopic risk of some chinese AI having a "trigger" to act badly in a harness when it detects its being used by some Gweilo in the USA, even locally run Chinese models are DOA for most USA based companies.
qarl
an hour ago
The real advantage of the Chinese models is that they do not phone home at all. They run locally unlike their US competitors.
So odd that your erroneous criticism is at the top of HN.
EDIT: I'd love to hear my downvoters' objections. Is it possible that the mechanism that is promoting erroneous information is also demoting its correction?
kube-system
an hour ago
I suspect you’re being downvoted because you’re conflating nationality with hosting model.
There are hosted and self-hosted Chinese models. There are hosted and self-hosted US models.
DeepSeek’s hosted offering processes your data in mainland China and trains on it. It’s in their privacy policy
qarl
an hour ago
Well - yes - we're on the internet. You always have a choice to run your software in foreign countries.
But it's still erroneous to claim that it isn't a choice.
kube-system
an hour ago
The most popular frontier models are not open weight.
qarl
an hour ago
The model we're discussing (Deepseek) is open weight.
kube-system
36 minutes ago
Perhaps your prior comment would’ve been better received if it said that specifically instead of “Chinese models”.
But also, the latest DeepSeek is 1.6T parameters. “Choosing” to run this locally is a choice that comes with a seven digit price tag, and is a sunk cost that will probably not run any other frontier model anytime soon.
Most organizations are not looking to spend millions of dollars trying to find a workaround to specifically run DeepSeek. Most enterprise consumption in this space is still very experimental and a pay as you go model is much more palatable. Most are simply just looking for three checkboxes: is it close to frontier performance, is it compliant with my organizations requirements, and is it a good price? DeepSeek can only do two of the three at the same time.
zozbot234
22 minutes ago
> But also, the latest DeepSeek is 1.6T parameters. “Choosing” to run this locally is a choice that comes with a seven digit price tag
Unless you're specifically thinking about running the model at stock precision in a datacenter environment and generating ~100 tok/s or more on a 24/7 basis (the equivalent of a >$1000/mo spend even on the cheapest third-party APIs), that's very likely off by multiple orders of magnitude. Even then, experimentation can be done with cheap neoclouds on a pay-as-you-go basis.
kube-system
19 minutes ago
I’m aware. The context of the discussion here is choosing DeepSeek over a US hosted model from Google, Anthropic or OpenAI.
The equivalent comparison would be running it at full frontier quality.
If you want less than frontier quality, there’s tons of great open weight models other than DeepSeek.
> cheap neoclouds
Again, fails the compliance checkbox.
qarl
28 minutes ago
My most sincere apologies for shortening "the vast majority of Chinese models" to simply "Chinese models".
I can see now why I was being downvoted - you have explained it eloquently.
(Your cost analysis is flawed and irrelevant.)
analognoise
2 hours ago
These are the same people that sent manufacturing jobs away to be copied elsewhere. They got rewarded for it in the market. Decades later, when it was clearly a problem, they got tax breaks to bring some of it back/distribute the work to other, friendlier countries.
Every public AI that is not full of classified material will end up being hosted where the energy cost*compute efficiency product is lowest, thievery or not.
With Chinese GPUs just a step behind (but subsidized), China putting in 8x more solar than we do in 1 year, and Chinese models just a step behind but free? All public AI will be hosted there, theft or not.
If it becomes a problem, then we’ll subsidize the rich to bring it on-shore, but only to those companies who our leaders invest in already - to maximize grift and corruption.
scotty79
2 hours ago
"China bad!" is a moral statement. Whetever the reasons might have been that it was formed.
blfr
2 hours ago
China is bad and there's a moral argument there. But the reason you want to be careful with sending IP to China is quite pragmatic: they're willing and able to use it while competing with you.
Is Alibaba interested in copying your TUI RSS reader though? Probably not.
bix6
2 hours ago
And US companies aren’t going to compete against you?
mannanj
2 hours ago
I don't want to send my data to known IP thieves, state actors, and competitors in USA either. This to me seems very rational.
It's not tribalistic or binary ,choose USA Or Choose China. We can choose neither.
Choose neither abuse.
FeteCommuniste
2 hours ago
They've been singing the same old song since the Cold War, "either support everything the US does or you're a commie/terrorist." Yawn.
SanjayMehta
2 hours ago
“No country can match the output of moral judgments that spew out from the editorial pages of the New York Times and Washington Post and from the reports of the greatest think tanks and universities in the world.”
— Kishore Mahubani
tcp_handshaker
2 hours ago
You have the models available on Bedrock. What is the problem? It stays within your AWS account.
mynameismon
2 hours ago
Why not Chinese models hosted on American hardware?
Der_Einzige
2 hours ago
The reality is that they're a hell of a lot less cheap on American hardware than on Chinese hardware. At the point you are running Chinese models on US hardware, "Why not nano or haiku" becomes the next relevant question.
computerex
2 hours ago
Not true. Togetherai, deepinfra, fireworks AI offer a wide range of models like gpt oss that are very capable and far cheaper than the models from big 3.
cactusplant7374
2 hours ago
Are they better? Are they better than GPT5.5?
computerex
an hour ago
That depends on the use case. For a lot of business use cases they are good enough. They are certainly better than older models like gpt-4o.
worldthruword
2 hours ago
And the reasons are same. Chinese cars can't be sold in US (EU is planning a similar law to ban Chinese goods).
mavhc
an hour ago
When will we see an open source car?
moron4hire
an hour ago
The same year Linux wins the desktop market.
newaccountman2
2 hours ago
I think unless one is operating in a highly regulated industry, wanting to avoid "sending data to China" is a bit paranoid. For code specifically, most of it is not interesting anyways.
joe_mamba
2 hours ago
>Most American companies (regulated ones, definitely) can't dare to touch any Chinese models, though they knew that it makes perfect economic sense.
Weird, considering they had no issues shipping manufacturing and supply chains to China when that made economic sense.
blfr
2 hours ago
Yes, there was a whole idea about civilizing and pacifying the world through economic cooperation that would foster middle class in countries across the world that would then in turn make them democratize and become peaceful trade partners.
It didn't quite work out so now people are looking for other strategies.
galactushonor
2 hours ago
> It didn't quite work out so now people are looking for other strategies.
World will bifurcate into West and East with their own spheres of influence. As JD Vance said, US thought that China will be perpetually kept busy and enslaved in low level manufacturing work and the design and higher level work would happen in Cupertino. Too bad, that didn't pan out well and now US Empire is getting challenged by China.
joe_mamba
2 hours ago
> US thought that China will be perpetually kept busy and enslaved in low level manufacturing work
It's OK, they'll repeat the same mistake again with India this time, when they move manufacturing from China to there, and in 10-30 years when they'll elect a nationalist strongman there, he'll squeeze the west for everything they got.
Because what are you gonna do about it then? They have all your manufacturing and they also have nukes and more soldiers.
JumpCrisscross
2 hours ago
> in 30 years they'll electr a nationalist strongman
You’re about thirty years off on that estimate.
zappb
an hour ago
India is far ahead of that idea and already has legislation to encourage domestic manufacturing from global companies. Plus the nationalist government is in place.
jampekka
2 hours ago
The idea does smell a bit like a rationalization for policy that was extremely convenient for stockholders and a disaster for workers.
Avicebron
2 hours ago
I think there was an unholy alliance between true believers (career politicians who were already wealthy, comfortable, worldly etc) who were blinded by the "win-win". Low prices from offshore manufacturing in impoverished nations and also "bringing up the world population and making everyone wealthy" and the short-term "stock must go up".
So even if selling the precariat/deplorables down the river wasn't the primary objective. It was still a deeply racist, flawed, and ultimately stupid strategy.
It could have only been implemented by people who were so financially out of touch with the rest of of the population that they didn't see how damaging it was. If they did see it coming and still went along with it, well, they and their families will reap the rewards..
mitthrowaway2
2 hours ago
The government may have allowed it with that intention, but the corporate leaders followed through mainly with the intention of short-term share price increases. I don't see how the same incentive isn't in place today with respect to data. Perhaps only the perception of China's ability to outcompete its American customers has changed.
tcp_handshaker
2 hours ago
goatlover
2 hours ago
And if that fails, the US can always use economic and military pressure to get what it wants.
joe_mamba
2 hours ago
>then in turn make them democratize
Most non western countries lack the foundations of western democracy, and you can't force that onto them neither peacefully not through war. The west has tried and failed for 40+ years to do this, it doesn't work, time to drop it and let them self govern the way they always have. Stop trying to export our version of democracy onto others.
Plus, the main reason they exported manufacturing to China was precisely so capitalists could avoid the issues democracy gave them back home and easily exploit Chinese labor and environment for profit because just bribing the CCP meant all your problems go away, no unions, no employee rights, no environmentalism etc. like in democratic countries. So given that, why would the west want China or other countries they want to exploit, to be more democratic? Unless their version of democratic just means a puppet government under western(US) control.
>become peaceful trade partners.
Which countries did China bomb VS how many the US bombed? My energy prices (and directly inflation) is now higher because of (yet again) US military intervention, not because of China.
zozbot234
an hour ago
> Most non western countries lack the foundations of western democracy, and you can't force that onto them
Several East Asian countries managed to democratize successfully up thru the 1980s and are extremely successful today, so this is not just a uniform failure story. Even mainland China might still come around (at least partially) as it gains a true massive middle class by Western standards, which it's still very far from today. Southeast Asia is also doing comparatively quite well.