LED lighting undermines visual performance unless supplemented by wider spectra

73 pointsposted 11 hours ago
by bookofjoe

41 Comments

herf

7 hours ago

There is a 15-30% difference between the groups at baseline (fig 8c-9c, 8d-9d), about the same magnitude as the claimed effect of the experimental condition.

I think the result would be much stronger if these baselines were comparable, so they show they have accounted for other variables like time of day and light history. I am also skeptical of any effect in the retina lasting 6 weeks, with no fading.

Consider that people are often exposed to much more infrared light outdoors, so "worked under a relatively dim incandescent lamp" is not a particularly novel stimulus. Imagine that any of these people spent time outdoors during the six weeks - thousands of times more infrared light there.

marcosdumay

8 hours ago

Just to point to anybody that comes here directly, the article has no relation at all with perceived illumination, color fidelity, or anything else people complain about leds.

It's an interesting niche topic that you may want your working place to notice if you work indoors.

userbinator

10 hours ago

Very interesting. I've always thought that there was something a bit "off" about LED torches and car headlamps; the brightness is there, but something about the light just doesn't seem to illuminate as well as an old dim incandescent or even fluorescent tube.

orbital-decay

8 hours ago

They're saying that the visual performance is indirectly affected by invisible wavelengths somehow. Not that you can see the difference between two types.

rpcope1

8 hours ago

I get that they're more efficient in some sense, but man the LED streetlights and other big lamps are so irritating and make things like like such ass compared to mercury vapor or even sodium lights.

mjmas

10 hours ago

Someone please tell the Australian government now that we've essentially banned other forms of lighting. (except fluorescent)

u1hcw9nx

10 hours ago

You can buy full spectrum LED lights (99 CRI, or grow lamps)

The article uses LED as synonym for typical LED lightning.

ale42

9 hours ago

How is "full spectrum" defined in this case? Visible spectrum is not the subject of the paper, as they care about infrared.

krackers

9 hours ago

Also even limited to visible spectrum, I have not seen any 99 CRI bulbs. The highest one I have ever found are the 98 CRI by YujiLED, but you pay around $35 for a single bulb. It is absolutely not "easy" to get flicker-free high CRI bulbs, let alone ones that cover the infrared range.

KennyBlanken

7 hours ago

Phillips, GE, Cree, and others sell high-CRI bulbs.

10 years ago you had to work to find high CRI bulbs but could still find Cree bulbs pretty easily. Now you can get high CRI bulbs at the grocery store.

High CRI bulbs generally have low or no flicker because high CRI is toward the premium end of the market.

IR emission is not a "feature", it's a bug.

krackers

5 hours ago

Almost all of the bulbs you can find at a hardware store (let alone grocery store) exhibit terrible 120hz flicker. I know because I've literally tried every single one. Also it's not hard to get "high" (~90-94) CRI while nonetheless having terrible deep reds.

Out of the manufacturers you listed, only Philips Ultra Definition (95 CRI, R9 90) have low flicker and good R9. Unfortunately they are poorly made and I have to keep buying new packs each year but it's more cost effective than Yuji for lesser used areas.

Also the claim from TFA is that NIR component improves visual performance (and I've read elsewhere that NIR also has health benefits).

ChadNauseam

an hour ago

How about Phillips flicker-free "warm glow" bulbs? I honestly have a hard time believing that they flicker because I can literally unscrew the bulb and watch it dim gradually over the course of a second. Which indicates to me that there's a capacitor in front of the LED drivers smoothing the current out. (Which I guess is required to be compatible with triac dimmers anyway.)

novok

10 hours ago

You can't buy heat lamps? They are even more infrared and last longer.

Also LED lighting can have infrared, have a significantly more smoother spectrum curve and still last +20k hours without burnout. The cheaper bulb spectra that they show is a blue led + phosphor coating, but there are infrared LEDs, UV leds, and more. You can make quite the convincing sun simulation, even better than any incandescent bulb, but there is almost no demand for UV + Infrared super full spectrum lighting unfortunately. Only movie & theater lights come close.

krackers

9 hours ago

>LED lighting can have infrared, have a significantly more smoother spectrum curve and still last +20k hours without burnout

Do you have a link to a bulb that you can purchase meeting all these criteria? The only one I'm aware of was this obscure "StarLike" that was never actually sold in bulk. LEDs can be made good in theory sure, but in practice they are all terrible in light quality compared to a standard incandescent.

https://budgetlightforum.com/t/sunlike-vs-starlike/64155/7

novok

9 hours ago

You would need to see the spectra of the various LEDs available and create a mix along with phosphor mixes. The closest thing is something like a BLAIR-CG light engine from aputure where they have something like 9 different colors of LEDs that mix together, but they don't put any infrared leds in them because they are for movies and they don't put any UVB or proper UVA leds. But there are infrared, UVA & UVB LEDs that you could apply the same kind of engineering principle to make something that closely follows the sun spectra.

No, you can't buy them as bulbs. The closest thing is those red light therapy panels that include them.

dangus

9 hours ago

Typical electricity rates in Australia are up to 40c/kWh or so.

Do you really think $5 AUD per month per bulb that you’re running 8 hours a day is worth it for better spectrum quality?

mjmas

a few seconds ago

Are we also going to ban powerful computers since they use lots of power?

bob1029

7 hours ago

I've been using incandescent more often. All my vanity lights are 40w appliance bulbs now. The difference at night is remarkable. The LED is just too much even at 2700k. I still prefer LED for high power situations like br30/40 can lights.

HNisCIS

10 hours ago

No mention of CRI which seems kind of odd. LEDs for lighting are increasingly graded by how natural their emission spectrum is. Older lights are quite bad, newer ones sacrifice a tiny bit of performance for more uniform spectrum.

hedora

9 hours ago

They use rf numbers, which is a newer standard, so that's probably good.

However, the experimental group (extra light sources) got rf 91 bulbs, and the control ("LED lighting") got rf 85 bulbs.

The two scales are not exactly comparable, but they both max out at 100. The only source I could find that discusses both says that > 90 CRI is "excellent" and just below that is "very good". It says > 85 rf is "very good", which tells me it's comparable to a mid-80's CRI bulb.

If I accidentally buy a mid-80 CRI bulb, I either return it to the store, or just throw it away.

So, I'd say this study's experimental setup doesn't support any useful conclusions. They showed that so-painfully-bad-California-won't-subsidize-them LEDs are worse than passable LEDs with supplementation from another light source.

The passable LEDs in the study are probably comparable to the cheap ones at our local hardware store, but worse than the ones that cost $10-20 on amazon ten years ago.

This would have been much more interesting if they'd compared high-end LEDs with and without supplementation, and found a difference. (And by "high-end", I mean "still much cheaper then the electricity they save")

novok

10 hours ago

CRI is a pretty bad rating system. They are showing the full spectrum graphs which is what you'd want anyway. Spectral Similarity Index (SSI) is the better number

HNisCIS

9 hours ago

Sure, but I don't see them mention what they're actually using for LEDs at all. They mention a "colour fidelity index" but I'd expect a manufacturer part number or something so I can pull the datasheet.

Funny enough, the best evidence for this study is that they should probably move somewhere with more sunlight if they can't spell "color" right... /s

novok

9 hours ago

They are not using an index much, they are showing you actual spectral graphs. Ask an AI to understand how that is the actual info you'd want.

HNisCIS

7 hours ago

Is "ask an AI" the new rtfm?

wendy_kroy

9 hours ago

I think CRI is not important here as thats a measure in the visual spectrum. The paper talks about all the missing wavelength outside of the visual spectrum.

sho_hn

9 hours ago

Out of curiosity:

a) How do Philips Hue bulbs stack up?

b) Did Philips update them generationally and assuming they are decent now, how recently?

AshamedCaptain

10 hours ago

Why is it that right now there is still on the frontpage of an "article being found flawed after 6k citations " ( https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2026/01/22/aking/ ) but this random article coming out of nowhere makes the front page on the same day?

People really should get it and stop sharing newly published papers to the general public. The value of one single academic paper is exactly 0. Even a handful of such articles still has 0 value to the general public. This is only of interest to other academics (or labs, countries, etc.) who may have the power to reproduce it in a controlled environment.

Be very skeptical of correlations like this that have dubious or poorly understood causation. Be even more skeptical if they are about day-to-day stuff that would likely have large swaths of people able to reproduce something like it on huge scales yet they haven't. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

novok

10 hours ago

You can also look at all the papers it's citing too...

angry_octet

5 hours ago

This article is not making an extraordinary claim, and your offence is hyperbolic. Analysis of research should not be restricted to the academe, but careful not to cherry puck research.

noosphr

10 hours ago

I have incandescent light bulbs at home I have to pretty much smuggle from China. It's amazing how we're replaying the asbestos playbook a century later. Only this time it's government mandated.

cglouch

4 hours ago

where do you purchase yours out of curiosity? My incandescent light bulb dealer on Ebay stopped selling them...

rrr_oh_man

9 hours ago

> It's amazing how we're replaying the asbestos playbook a century later

Can you elaborate?

noosphr

7 hours ago

Asbestos was pushed as a magical solution to problems of fire in homes without paying attention to the health effects. It took 80 years for the obvious to become law.

Leds are pushed as a solution to energy consumption by humans without paying any attention to the health effects. Hopefully it will be less than 80 years of cancers and metabolic disruption before the obvious is done.

But this time the regulation was captured pre-emptively, to the point that following best scientific advice for your health is illegal is most of the developed world.

sb057

8 hours ago

There's a mostly-unsubstantiated-by-data belief that LED lighting can cause health problems by some combination of flickering and narrow color spectrum.

NotGMan

7 hours ago

There's a mostly-unsubstantiated-by-data belief that LED lighting can NOT cause health problems by some combination of flickering and narrow color spectrum.

AshamedCaptain

6 hours ago

Do you have evidence that this rock doesn't keep tigers away?

wincy

8 hours ago

I’m guessing the Russian theory that asbestos is totally fine and isn’t harmful? The Russians still use asbestos and say it’s a plot by the west that we got rid of asbestos in our buildings. (Don’t shoot the messenger here, I have no dog in this fight and am not expressing an opinion)

throwaway173738

3 hours ago

Asbestos is totally safe as long as it’s not friable and you don’t sand it or disturb the fibers. Mesothelioma was a major problem if you were repeatedly exposed to asbestos. It’s present in nature and especially in soil in small concentrations. What makes it dangerous is if you’re constantly breathing it in. You would be doing that if you ran a buffer over asbestos tile for years, or if you worked in a space with asbestos pipe insulation, or if your job was to install asbestos siding or sheet flooring or formica(many adhesives contained it). Even gypsum wallboard contained asbestos up through the 80’s. It’s precisely its ubiquity as a building material that makes it dangerous because people are constantly disturbing it occupationally.

orbital-decay

7 hours ago

You are expressing disinformation. The actual regulations are very different from what you make it seem.