Inside The Internet Archive's Infrastructure

255 pointsposted 2 days ago
by dvrp

59 Comments

hedora

7 hours ago

It's frustrating that there's no way for people to (selectively) mirror the Internet Archive. $25-30M per year is a lot for a non-profit, but it's nothing for government agencies, or private corporations building Gen AI models.

I suspect having a few different teams competing (for funding) to provide mirrors would rapidly reduce the hardware cost too.

The density + power dissipation numbers quoted are extremely poor compared to enterprise storage. Hardware costs for the enterprise systems are also well below AWS (even assuming a short 5 year depreciation cycle on the enterprise boxes). Neither this article nor the vendors publish enough pricing information to do a thorough total cost of ownership analysis, but I can imagine someone the size of IA would not be paying normal margins to their vendors.

toomuchtodo

7 hours ago

Pick the items you want to mirror and seed them via their torrent file.

https://help.archive.org/help/archive-bittorrents/

https://github.com/jjjake/internetarchive

https://archive.org/services/docs/api/internetarchive/cli.ht...

u/stavros wrote a design doc for a system (codename "Elephant") that would scale this up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45559219

(no affiliation, I am just a rando; if you are a library, museum, or similar institution, ask IA to drop some racks at your colo for replication, and as always, don't forget to donate to IA when able to and be kind to their infrastructure)

billyhoffman

5 hours ago

There are real problems with the Torrent files for collections. They are automatically created when a collection is first created and uploaded, and so they only include the files of the initial upload. For very large collections (100+ GB) it is common for a creator to add/upload files into a collection in batches, but the torrent file is never regenerated, so download with the torrent results in just a small subset of the entire collection.

https://www.reddit.com/r/torrents/comments/vc0v08/question_a...

The solution is to use one of the several IA downloader script on GitHub, which download content via the collection's file list. I don't like directly downloading since I know that is most cost to IA, but torrents really are an option for some collections.

Turns out, there are a lot of 500BG-2TB collections for ROMs/ISOs for video game consoles through the 7th and 8th generation, available on the IA...

Wowfunhappy

5 hours ago

Is this something the Internet Archive could fix? I would have expected the torrent to get replaced when an upload is changed, maybe with some kind of 24 hour debounce.

rincebrain

4 hours ago

"They're working on it." [1]

It sounds like they put this mechanism into place that stops regenerating large torrents incrementally when it caused massive slowdowns for them, and haven't finished building something to automatically fix it, but will go fix individual ones on demand for now.

[1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/theinternetarchive/comments/1ij8go9...

textfiles

3 hours ago

It is on my desk to fix this soon.

nodja

6 hours ago

It's insane to me that in 2008 a bunch of pervs decentralized storage and made hentai@home to host hentai comics. Yet here we are almost 20 years later and we haven't generalized this solution. Yes I'm aware of the privacy issues h@h has (as a hoster you're exposing your real IP and people reading comics are exposing their IP to you) but those can be solved with tunnels, the real value is the redundant storage.

qingcharles

6 hours ago

The fact AI companies are stripping mining IA for content and not helping to be part of the solution is egregious.

Gormo

an hour ago

How is it "egregious" that people are obtaining content to use for their own purposes from a resource intentionally established as a repository of content for people to obtain and use for their own purposes?

astrange

4 hours ago

Has any evidence been provided for this fact?

textfiles

3 hours ago

They absolutely are.

razakel

2 hours ago

Of course they are. Had to block anything at work coming from one certain company because it wasn't respecting robots.txt and the bill was just getting silly.

philipkglass

7 hours ago

I would like to be able to pull content out of the Wayback Machine with a proper API [1]. I'd even be willing to pay a combination of per-request and per-gigabyte fees to do it. But then I think about the Archive's special status as a non-profit library, and I'm not sure that offering paid API access (even just to cover costs) is compatible with the organization as it exists.

[1] It looks like this might exist at some level, e.g. https://github.com/hartator/wayback-machine-downloader, but I've been trying to use this for a couple of weeks and every day I try I get a HTTP 5xx error or "connection refused."

toomuchtodo

7 hours ago

philipkglass

7 hours ago

Yes, there are documents and third party projects indicating that it has a free public API, but I haven't been able to get it to work. I presume that a paid API would have better availability and the possibility of support.

I just tried waybackpy and I'm getting errors with it too when I try to reproduce their basic demo operation:

  >>> from waybackpy import WaybackMachineSaveAPI
  >>> url = "https://nuclearweaponarchive.org"
  >>> user_agent = "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:40.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/40.0"
  >>> save_api = WaybackMachineSaveAPI(url, user_agent)
  >>> save_api.save()
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<python-input-4>", line 1, in <module>
      save_api.save()
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~^^
    File "/Users/xxx/nuclearweapons-archive/venv/lib/python3.13/site-packages/waybackpy/save_api.py", line 210, in save
      self.get_save_request_headers()
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^^
    File "/Users/xxx/nuclearweapons-archive/venv/lib/python3.13/site-packages/waybackpy/save_api.py", line 99, in get_save_request_headers
      raise TooManyRequestsError(
      ...<4 lines>...
      )
  waybackpy.exceptions.TooManyRequestsError: Can not save 'https://nuclearweaponarchive.org'. Save request refused by the server. Save Page Now limits saving 15 URLs per minutes. Try waiting for 5 minutes and then try again.

toomuchtodo

7 hours ago

Reach out to patron services, support @ archive dot org. Also, your API limits will be higher if you specify your API key from your IA user versus anonymous requests when making requests.

986aignan

2 hours ago

I wish there were some kind of file search for the Wayback Machine. Like "list all .S3M files on members.aol.com before 1998". It would've made looking for obscure nostalgia much easier.

quux

4 hours ago

Is running an IPFS node and pinning the internet archive's collections a good way to do this?

Gormo

an hour ago

> $25-30M per year is a lot for a non-profit

$25 million a year is not remotely a lot for a non-profit doing any kind of work at scale. Wikimedia's budget is about seven times that. My local Goodwill chapter has an annual budget greater than that.

Medium_Taco

11 minutes ago

You're being purposefully obtuse. Most non-profits don't function at scale (neither do they do best at scale). They serve their local community

hinkley

5 hours ago

I'd like a Public Broadcasting Service for the Internet but I'm afraid that money would just be pulled from actual PBS at this point to support it.

xp84

3 hours ago

Too late, PBS is already defunded. CPB was deleted. PBS is now an indie organization without a dime of public money. They should probably rebrand and lose the word “Public”

skywhopper

2 hours ago

Don’t put any stock into the numbers in the article. They are mostly made up out of thin air.

BryantD

9 hours ago

They have come a very long way since the late 1990s when I was working there as a sysadmin and the data center was a couple of racks plus a tape robot in a back room of the Presidio office with an alarmingly slanted floor. The tape robot vendor had to come out and recalibrate the tape drives more often than I might have wanted.

textfiles

7 hours ago

There is a fundamental resistance to tape technology that exists to this day as a result of all those troubles.

EvanAnderson

4 hours ago

That's sad, but it mirrors my experience with commercial customers. Tape is so fiddly but the cost efficiency for large amounts of data and at-rest stability is so good. Tape is caught in a spiral of decreasing market share so industry has no incentive to optimize it.

Edit: Then again, I recently heard a podcast that talked about the relatively good at-rest stability of SATA hard disk drives stored outdoors. >smile<

duskwuff

3 hours ago

Tape is also an extraordinarily poor option for a service like Internet Archive which intends to provide interactive, on-demand access to its holdings.

EvanAnderson

2 hours ago

I presume backing-up the archive is a desirable thing. That's a place where I would see tape fitting well for them.

duskwuff

2 hours ago

Perhaps? But unless tape, and the infrastructure to support it, is dramatically cheaper than disk, they might still be better served by more disk - having two or more copies of data on disk means that both of them can service load, whereas a tape backup is only passively useful as a backup.

stonogo

2 hours ago

This is a common use for tape, which can via tools like HPSS have a couple petabytes of disk in front of it, and present the whole archive in a single POSIX filesystem namespace, handling data migration transparently and making sure hot data is kept on low-latency storage.

hinkley

5 hours ago

We had a little server room where the AC was mounted directly over the rack. I don't think we ever put an umbrella in there but it sure made everyone nervous the drain pipe would clog.

Much more recently, I worked at a medium-large SaaS company but if you listened to my coworkers you'd think we were Google (there is a point where optimism starts being delusion, and a couple of my coworkers were past it.)

Then one day I found the telemetry pages for Wikipedia. I am hoping some of those charts were per hour not per second, otherwise they are dealing with mind numbing amounts of traffic.

mcpar-land

6 hours ago

Is this some kind of copypasted AI output? There are unformatted footnote numbers at the end of many sentences.

sltkr

4 hours ago

Some of the images are AI generated (see the Gemini watermark in the bottom right), and the final paragraph also reads extremely AI-generated.

NetOpWibby

6 hours ago

I was thinking the same thing. No proofreading is a sure sign to me. I also feel like I've read parts of this before.

rarisma

5 hours ago

I think this was writen wholly by deep research.

It just reads like a clunky low quality article

astrange

4 hours ago

It's clearly AI writing ("hum", "delve") but oddly I don't think deep research models use those words.

joemi

3 hours ago

I think relying on the vocabulary to indicate AI is pointless (unless they're actually using words that AI made up). There's a reason they use words such as those you've pointed out: because they're words, and their training material (a.k.a. output by humans) use them.

astrange

2 hours ago

No American used "delve" before ChatGPT 3.5, and nobody outside fanfiction uses the metaphors it does (which are always about "secrets" "quiet" "humming" "whispers" etc). It's really very noticeable.

semiquaver

3 hours ago

This article is way too LLMey for my taste.

bpiche

4 hours ago

IA is hosting a couple more of Rick Prelinger’s shows this month. Looking forward to visiting

ghm2199

3 hours ago

Does any one know how the size of this compares to archive.today?

textfiles

3 hours ago

We absolutely lap them with many, many more petabytes of material. But archive.today is also not doing speculative or multiple scheduled captures of the amount of sites that archive.org is.

vladiim

3 hours ago

How long will it take for them to send the PetaBox to space?

textfiles

3 hours ago

That project gets discussed every once in a while.

brcmthrowaway

8 hours ago

Does IA do deduplication?

textfiles

7 hours ago

Not in the way I think you're talking about. The archive has always tried to maintain a situation where the racks could be pushed out of the door or picked up after being somewhere and the individual drives will contain complete versions of the items. We have definitely reached out to people who seem to be doing redundant work and ask them to stop or for permission to remove the redundant item. But that's a pretty curatorial process.

schmuckonwheels

7 hours ago

Disappointed with the lack of pictures.

parttimelarry

6 hours ago

Probably because this looks more like a Deep Research agent "delving" into the infrastructure -- with a giant list of sources at the end. The Archive is not just a library; it is a service provider.

schmuckonwheels

4 hours ago

I wasn't expecting to read a podcast when clicking.

lysace

6 hours ago

The IA needs perhaps not just more money, but also more talented people, IMO. I worry that it has stagnated, from a tech pov.

mixologic

3 hours ago

They can offer a perk that literally no other tech job can offer: Someday have a statue of your likeness preserved in ceramic: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/internet-archive-headqua...

"Inside the church's main room, with its still-intact pews, there are more than 120 ceramic sculptures of the Internet Archive's current and former employees, created by artist Nuala Creed and inspired by the statues of the Xian warriors in China."

textfiles

3 hours ago

We've hired a few dozen people over the past couple of years. We think they're pretty talented.

lysace

2 hours ago

Is retreival from the wayback machine intentionally made slow?

textfiles

29 minutes ago

Show me the faster wayback machine we are competing against.

cowhax

7 hours ago

>And the rising popularity of generative AI adds yet another unpredictable dimension to the future survival of the public domain archive.

I'd say the nonprofit has found itself a profitable reason for its existence