Creators of Tailwind laid off 75% of their engineering team

1457 pointsposted a month ago
by kevlened

233 Comments

freedomben

a month ago

Very sad to hear, I bought Tailwind UI years ago and although it was a lot more expensive than I wanted, I've appreciated the care and precision and highly recommend buying it (It's now called Tailwind Plus) even still (maybe even especially now).

Mad props to Adam for his honesty and transparency. Adam if you're reading, just know that the voices criticizing you are not the only voices out there. Thanks for all you've done to improve web development and I sincerely hope you can figure out a way to navigate the AI world, and all the best wishes.

Btw the Tailwind newsletter/email that goes out is genuinely useful as well, so I recommend signing up for that if you use Tailwind CSS at all.

Aurornis

a month ago

Tailwind did a great job of building a fanbase. Even without LLMs I always thought they were on a collision course with market saturation, though. They generously gave lifetime access for a one-time payment, which was bound to run into problems as free alternatives became better and their core fanbase didn't have any reason to spend more money.

Their business model also missed the boat on the rise of Figma and similar tools. I can think back to a couple different projects where the web developers wanted to use Tailwind [Plus] components but the company had a process that started in Figma. It's hard to sell the designers on using someone else's component library when they have to redraw it in Figma anyway.

mirzap

a month ago

There’s no doubt that AI has had a significant impact on this type of business model - selling premium components. That said, in 2026 there are still plenty of premium kits generating substantial revenue despite AI.

I believe something else has had a much greater impact on Tailwind UI’s business than AI, and that is shadcn, which was released in September 2023. The fact that Adam didn’t recognize this shift and adapt Tailwind UI to align with the shadcn ecosystem is, in my view, the primary reason sales have declined, not AI.

I used Tailwind UI Plus extensively before shadcn, but after its release, I lost the motivation to copy, paste, and manually modify components when I can simply pull free components (or components from another kit) directly via shadcn.

I genuinely hope Adam updates Tailwind Plus and creates a shadcn compatible registry for their components. That alone could significantly boost sales.

phatskat

a month ago

The lack of Figma integration or a first-party plugin was a huge bummer for me. I still use Tailwind almost religiously because it just clicked for me and I have been on enough projects with terrible SCSS organization that I want to leave that as far behind me as I can.

I do appreciate that even without an integration, it’s fairly easy to set up vim on one screen and figma on the other and be able to translate the css to TW without any issues or having to constantly look things up.

dfee

a month ago

alternatively, Adam executed the superior pricing strategy. had he charged for recurring licenses, would fewer people have signed up? would his subscriptions also be drawing down?

i wouldn't have bought a sub, but i did pay for tailwind premium (and, frankly, didn't use it like i'd've hoped). however, it was a bit of a Kickstarter investment for me. i like Adam's persona, and was happy to see continued investment down this path.

as many a business knows, you need to bring new initiatives to the table over, or accept that your one product carries all your risk.

thank you for Tailwind, Adam.

Aurornis

a month ago

> alternatively, Adam executed the superior pricing strategy.

I'm not saying it wasn't a good choice at the time.

The problem with lifetime licensing only appears down the road if a company doesn't find a way to expand their offerings.

If you opened a local gym with reasonably priced lifetime memberships you'd probably have an explosion of new customers. You'd then hit a wall where you've saturated the market, can't sell any more memberships, but you have to keep paying employees and rent.

tshaddox

a month ago

Adam presented his case for the lifetime pricing model in this podcast episode in 2023:

https://hackersincorporated.com/episodes/lifetime-pricing-is...

I believe he succeeding in convincing Sam and Ryan to adopt lifetime pricing for their UI course at https://buildui.com/pricing. I've purchased Build UI, and it was an excellent product, but unfortunately it appears to be completely dead for at least a full year now.

Neither the unannounced death of Build UI nor this apparently financial catastrophe for Tailwind bode well for the prospects of lifetime pricing! Although the problem might be more related to the entire market segment (frontend programming and design courses) than to the particular pricing model.

johnnyanmac

a month ago

>had he charged for recurring licenses, would fewer people have signed up? would his subscriptions also be drawing down?

History says yes, and no. Much easier to retain periodic payment on a few engaged businesses than to continually look for people willing to make a one time payment. Especially in professional software.

The premium model just doesn't work unless you stay very lean. Workers need to be continually paid, even if you make your entire audience happy once.

ttcbj

a month ago

As a small business that started with a one-time/upgrade based pricing policy, and moved to a recurring policy, I don't think it is too late for tailwind to do so for future upgrades/improvements. I am saddened that they laid people off before trying. I understand doing that is a leap of faith/risk, but that is what you need to do.

The key thing they need to recognize is that some percentage of their customers are serious businesses that want them to continue developing/maintaining the software, and that these businesses will be supportive as long as the deal is the same for everyone (you can't ask them to pay out of the goodness of their hearts, as then they feel they will be taken advantage of by people who don't pay).

When we switched to a recurring pricing model, I thought it was going to be a disaster. In fact, I got an angry call from exactly one customer (who then remained a customer despite threatening to leave). I got subtly expressed approval/relief from many more.

The book "How to Sell at Margins Higher than Your Competitors" was helpful to me, and might be helpful here as well. The key is to realize that you want to sell to people who really value your product and will pay for it. You don't want to maximize volume, you want to maximize revenue x margin.

You already have an installed base of people who value your product enough to pay for it once, you just have to create a system that enables them to sustain the technology they value in order to get ongoing support/upgrades/fixes/etc. The people who are going to complain on hacker news about recurring pricing aren't the people you want as customers anyway.

If the majority of your customers don't value it that much, then you are pretty cooked. But you may as well find that out directly. If people really don't want to pay for the software, don't waste time creating it for them.

We made the switch about 20 years ago. Since that time, about 70% of our lifetime revenue has come from recurring payments. Had I not had the courage to make the switch, I would be writing now that the business has been an unsustainable mistake, but that would have been false.

csomar

a month ago

> Traffic to our docs is down about 40% from early 2023 despite Tailwind being more popular than ever.

This is from Adam but I also suspect the same. LLMs has a bias toward tailwind css. I had Claude/GLM multiple times try to add tailwind css classes even though the project doesn't have any tailwind packages/setup.

This is a business model issue rather than tailwind becoming irrelevant.

seanw265

a month ago

I'll piggyback on this to highlight Refactoring UI as well. It's an ebook by Adam and Steve, though I'm not sure if it's technically part of Tailwind Labs or not.

This book taught me so much about modern UI design. If you've ever tried building a component and thought to yourself, "hmm something about this looks off," you might benefit from this book.

These days some of the examples might be a little bit dated (fashions come and go), but the principles it teaches you are rock solid.

porker

a month ago

FWIW I found Practical UI [1] a more actionable book than Refactoring UI. Both are similar but I found it covered the material in a more accessible way.

1. https://www.practical-ui.com/

fud101

a month ago

i've read it and retained nothing. I always wonder what people get out of these hyped things that i'm unable to see.

yurishimo

a month ago

Did you read it cover to cover in one-(ish) sitting? I would argue it's more of a reference book that over time you can internalize into your own design language.

dawnerd

a month ago

I think think tailwind ui was one of the better purchases I’ve made (web tech wise). Up there with the lifetime acf pro license.

This sucks to see but was pretty obvious when it became the go to framework for LLMs.

risyachka

a month ago

What most don’t realize is that this will happen to most businesses in all categories as more people rely on ChatGPT and Claude for discovery.

No discovery - no business.

And same with ads.if OpenAI decides not to add ads - prepare for even faster business consolidation. Those businesses preferred by llms will exponentially grow, others will quickly go out of business

burningChrome

a month ago

> No discovery - no business.

I do SEO as a side gig to my 9-5 as a developer. All four of my freelance companies I work with have seen their traffic drop up to 40% since LLM's have effectively taken over and people are using search engines less and less.

We've had to pivot to short form social media advertising which seems to be closing the gap whereas before the majority of our leads were coming from organic search and being ranked high in their respective industries. It certainly takes more effort to craft a script, film it, edit it to add text overlays, animations and catchy effects, but its showing me its being effective in the leads we're generating.

I'm not sure if this is a sort of generational thing back when my parents were so engrained to use the yellow pages and then that stopped once the internet got into the advertising business - but it feels like a similar transition is taking place again.

As many have already told me, "Ignore AI at your peril"

motbus3

a month ago

Same where I work for 30% on some regions and for those where they put money only saw a minimum increase.

I honestly think the company is run by some good folks that are really trying to do some positive impact. They refuse so all sorts of bs ad-tracking gray area stuff, yet, people don't give a dime.

We caught over and over anthropic and others using shade tactics to bypass bot protection. They get the content, plagiarise it and contribute absolute nothing back. For weeks, openai was crawling our resources on DDOS levels of traffic.

F them. They just are just stealing and making businesses fail. This will be a catastrophe for many but yet, people think there is no relation.

zdragnar

a month ago

The real question is, have your actual qualified leads decreased?

So much traffic is bogus or looking for something adjacent to what they land on that I'm not entirely convinced AI is at fault here.

It very well could be, but I'd love to see a real deep dive rather than potential coincidence.

pier25

a month ago

I'm not sure if this is comparable to the yellow pages vs the internet.

Google became profitable in 2001 whereas OpenAI et al are still operating at a huge loss. Even with ads it's not clear whether LLMs can be profitable unless they increase prices significantly.

Aperocky

a month ago

Perhaps SEO will become a business to churn out large amount of digestable text with friendly robot.txt and hoping the next AI model learns it? This seem to be the solution, just having a slightly longer turn around time.

mattgreenrocks

a month ago

Underscoring the parent comment and adding to it: watching technologists on a site called Hacker News cheer on the centralization of power is really something.

nine_k

a month ago

There's nothing cheerful in that comment, it describes a danger that inexorably draws nearer and nearer.

Aperocky

a month ago

I don't think any power is as centralized as Google is to search about 10 years ago? Or Facebook is to social media in the same time frame? What has changed other than the players?

johnnyanmac

a month ago

Last 3 years of discourse in a nutshell. Sinclair's quote rings true once again... Just a shame people don't think of the long term cost to this trend chasing.

But then again, it wouldn't be a trend if people thought long term, would it?

marcus_holmes

a month ago

I think this phase of centralising power is part of the never-ending cycle of centralisation and distribution - mainframes -> PCs -> websites -> apps, and so on round we go. We will get a "data centres -> Personal LLMs" phase of the cycle which distributes it again.

So my hope is that LLMs become local in a few years.

We've been sitting around 16Gb of RAM on a laptop for 10-15 years now, not because RAM is too expensive or difficult to make, but because there's been no need for more than that for the average user. We could get "normal" laptop RAM up to 16Tb in a few years if there was commercial demand for it.

We have processor architectures that are suitable for running LLMS better/faster/efficiently. We could include those in a standard laptop if there was commercial demand for it.

Tokens are getting cheaper, dramatically, and will continue to do so. But we have an upper limit on LLM training complexity (we only have so much Internet data to train them on). Eventually the race between LLM complexity and processing speed will run out, and probably with processing speed as the winner.

So my hope is that our laptops change, that they include a personally-adapted very capable LLM, run locally, and that we start to see a huge variety of LLMs available. I guess the closest analogy would be the OS's from "Her"; less typing, more talking, and something that is personalised, appearing to actually know the user, and run locally (which is important).

I don't see anything stopping Linux from doing this too (but I'm not working in this area so I can't say for sure).

Obviously we'll face the usual data thieves and surveillance capitalism along the way, but that's part of the process.

Aurornis

a month ago

> as more people rely on ChatGPT and Claude for discovery

In my limited web dev experience with these tools, they suggest and push Tailwind CSS very often when asked for advice.

The Tailwind company wasn't selling that, though. They were selling premium packages of components, templates, and themes. The demand for that type of material has dropped off significantly now that you can get an LLM to do a moderately good job of making common layouts and components. Then you can adjust them yourself until they're exactly what you want.

pier25

a month ago

> most businesses in all categories as more people rely on ChatGPT and Claude for discovery

What about restaurants, transportation, construction, healthcare, or manufacturing?

Will those go out of business too?

TeMPOraL

a month ago

As a user and customer, I see that as a good thing.

khy

a month ago

Tailwind Plus is great - I love the lifetime access, but I always wondered how sustainable that model was. Even without AI, how many of those memberships could they sell?

satvikpendem

a month ago

I thought the same, and yet on the other hand, how could they have done it differently? People don't want to pay a subscription just to write a DSL of CSS. Perhaps they could've done it per project like some companies, but I don't think it'd be as popular as their lifetime model. Ironic.

port11

a month ago

I could never afford Tailwind UI but then again I don’t really use Tailwind. That said, as an open-source styling solution, they could be supported in other ways. A lot — and I really mean a lot — of websites are built with Tailwind, yet very few consider donating or buying what they have to offer.

Plenty of F/LOSS is in the same state: businesses extract all value they can from open-source, but put back nothing. That’s mining The Commons. LLMs are just accelerating this trend.

It’s never gonna work in the long run. Let’s go back to writing everything in house then, since we’re 100x more productive and don’t have to pay a dime for other people’s work.

tazjin

a month ago

My current take is that if you start an open-source project now, you should go full AGPL (or similar copyleft license), and require a CLA for contributors.

If your thing ends up actually good you now have a defence against exploitation, and a way to generate income reliably (by selling the code under a different license). afaik, organisations like the FSF even endorse this.

fc417fc802

a month ago

> businesses extract all value they can from open-source, but put back nothing

This has always been the case. Sometimes they give back by opening one or more of their components. Other times they don't. I don't see it as a problem. It doesn't usually detract from what's already published.

In cases where it would detract, simply use an appropriate license to curb the behavior.

> LLMs are just accelerating this trend.

LLMs might not prove sufficiently capable to meaningfully impact this dynamic.

Alternatively, if they achieve that level then I think they will accomplish the long stated goal of FOSS by enabling anyone to translate constraints from natural language into code. If I could simply list off behaviors of existing software and get a reliable reproduction I think that would largely obsolete worrying about software licenses.

I realize we're nowhere near that point yet, and also that reality is more complex than I'm accounting for there. But my point is that I figure either LLMs disrupt the status quo and we see benefits from it or alternatively that business as usual continues with some shiny new tools.

user

a month ago

[deleted]

duskdozer

a month ago

>Plenty of F/LOSS is in the same state: businesses extract all value they can from open-source, but put back nothing. That’s mining The Commons.

As incentivized by temporarily-free licenses.

mooreds

a month ago

> Btw the Tailwind newsletter/email that goes out is genuinely useful as well, so I recommend signing up for that if you use Tailwind CSS at all.

What is the signup link? I googled a bit but couldn't find it.

Cnidarias

a month ago

As a question regarding Tailwind Plus, we / I exclusively use Angular but the templates are all React / Vue / plain HTML.

Are these components mostly just the HTML styling which would then be easily used in Angular as well, or would it be too much of a hassle to adopt to Angular?

robertwt7

a month ago

yeah this is so sad, I'm an early supporter of Tailwind since v1 and I also bought the tailwind UI as well to support them. I hope this era doesn't discourage the tailwind team or put them out of business

gterez

a month ago

Early customer here too. Tailwind UI was one of my best purchases in the sense that it helped me learn and use Tailwind in the best way possible, by showing me, not telling me.

It was never sustainable as a product/business, as this pricing model requires constant growth. What I've seen along the way was a heavy pivot towards React (which left me wanting: I mostly use the Vue components & the HTML/JS components with Astro.js in the projects I work in) and even in the case of React, they haven't managed to arrive at a full, mature component library offering (while others have!).

TL;DR: I'd be struggling to justify it as a purchase for a new user now, even before factoring AI in.

refulgentis

a month ago

Smells like unnecessary sycophancy: I grep'd Adam in every comment and every single. one. is positive and phrased like this.

I grew up on this site, from 20 year old dropout waiter in Buffalo to 37 year old ex-Googler. One of the things I'm noticing me reacting to the last year or two is a "putting on a pedestal" effect that's unnecessary.

mmcclure

a month ago

I think context matters here. People are being kind to someone who just had to lay off most of their team because, despite their project’s popularity and success (maybe even because of it), a massive change in the ecosystem completely destroyed their business model.

I’ve never been a huge fan of using Tailwind personally, but I deeply appreciated that they were making a (mostly) non-enterprise FOSS model work in an interesting way. It’s a shame that it seems that’s likely dead in the water now.

lazyasciiart

a month ago

Perhaps if you’d simply read the thread you would have also seen these comments, which don’t name Adam but are addressed to him:

> We can't make it easier to use our product because then fewer people will visit our website" is certainly a business strategy.

> You are telling your customers that getting money from them, is more important than providing a service to help them.

searls

a month ago

This is madness. Some stories actually have good guys. I don't know Adam directly, but we have plenty of second degree connections. I've benefited immensely from his work, have never heard anyone say a single negative thing about him, and I genuinely believe he's done more to push the web forward with Tailwind than the larger players have done (certainly more than Facebook did with React and Google has done with Angular/AMP/etc).

Reflexively assuming that unanimous positive sentiment towards someone is itself an indication of a problem is exactly the reason people are writing posts as recently as (double checks) _yesterday_ titled "65% of Hacker News Posts Have Negative Sentiment, and They Outperform" https://philippdubach.com/standalone/hn-sentiment/

srameshc

a month ago

> But the reality is that 75% of the people on our engineering team lost their jobs here yesterday because of the brutal impact AI has had on our business.

Adam is simply trying to navigate this new reality, and he's being honest, so there's no need to criticize him.

ericmcer

a month ago

Tools like Tailwind are one of the few cases where I totally believe it when the CEO says "we are cutting jobs because of AI".

Sucks that anytime you ask AI to generate a site for you Tailwind will have an impact on that.

cluckindan

a month ago

And this is why AI coding will eventually degrade into a mess. Enjoy it while it lasts.

AI eats up users caring about $company which makes library, library degrades because nobody is paying, $company goes insolvent, library goes unmaintained and eventually defunct, AI still tries to use it.

Vibe coding with libraries is a fad that is destined to die.

Vibe coding your own libraries will result in million line codebases nobody understands.

Nothing about either is sustainable, it’s all optics and optics will come crashing down eventually.

tills13

a month ago

It's just interesting because most of the talk is programmers talking about AI taking their job by replacing them not taking their job because it's taking away revenue from the business.

Reminds me of the problem with Google & their rich results which wiped out and continues to wipe out blogs who rely on people actually visiting their site vs. getting the information they seek without leaving Google.

echelon

a month ago

Anything open source will be turned against its authors and against ICs.

We thought it would give us freedom, but all of the advantage will accrue to the hyperscalers.

If we don't build open source infra that is owned by everyone, we'll be owned by industrial giants and left with a thin crust that is barely ours. (This seems like such a far-fetched "Kumbaya, My Lord" type of wishful thinking, that it's a joke that I'm even suggesting this is possible.)

Tech is about to cease being ours.

I really like AI models, but I hate monopolies. Especially ones that treat us like cattle and depopulate the last vestiges of ownership and public commons.

port11

a month ago

Some of the critics in the thread are… odious. I’ve written down some of the GH handles, because if I’m ever hiring again, I wanna make sure I’d never hire some of these folks.

I don’t understand how someone can display such contempt towards the maintainer of a thing they’ve used for free.

latexr

a month ago

> I’ve written down some of the GH handles, because if I’m ever hiring again, I wanna make sure I’d never hire some of these folks.

You can block accounts on GitHub and add a note as to why. Might be simpler and more accessible later on than a random TXT (plus, it probably updates if they change their username).

Note that blocking also means they can’t contribute to your repos. Which you may not care about anyway.

altmanaltman

a month ago

"Sorry, we cannot give you the job because even though you're qualified and passed our interviews, you were such a meano to Adam! That is a no-go at this organization"

Who trusted you with hiring

jmtame

a month ago

Nice, nothing like a little personal bias to inject into an interview process. If you can't handle criticism and you're just looking for sycophants, you're probably not the type of employer or hiring manager most people want to work for anyway.

bitbasher

a month ago

insert "First time?" meme

mpeg

a month ago

You can use a product and still be critical, especially when layoffs happen, truth is there are a lot of things we don't know about their finances – tailwind definitely is successful by any metrics, they have corporate sponsors that alone give them a healthy MRR (I count at least $100k/month from the sponsors page alone)

I sympathise that it sucks having to fire people, been there. But it sucks more to get fired.

waffletower

a month ago

I am one of those critics, but I never used Tailwind. A layoff of that magnitude is horrific, but if what they are describing as their business model is true, they really really need to rethink it. I wonder what the size of their marketing team is like, and if they were involved in the layoffs. Seems like they need some help there. I found the "downvote" spam in that thread, for reasonable posts, to be quite off-putting, and that led me to my remarks.

7bit

a month ago

I wrote down your handle, so if you are ever hiring, I will be able to skip your toxic place.

pmdr

a month ago

If there's anything AI coding is good at, it's writing react components and tailwind css.

torginus

a month ago

I am not 100% sure about that - I usually find AI written CSS to be slightly visually flawed and almost always logically flawed.

The way you write websites that actually work imo, is you understand how your chosen CSS layout engine works roughly, and try to avoid switching between layout modes - traditional to flexbox to grid to flexbox again down the tree can drive the most brillant devs utterly mad .

But seriously, after a certain complexity threshold, it becomes impossible to tell what's going on and why.

And if you don't think about it in advance, it's very easy to reach that threshold, especially if you don't get to write the whole page from scratch, but have to build on the work of others.

AI (and many frontend devs) do write-only CSS - they add classes until the code they write looks right.

But code like that tends to fall apart under multiple resolutions, browsers, screen sizes, devices etc.

I am not a frontend dev, and came pretty late to the frontend party. That said I felt that anything that obscures the raw CSS makes it much harder to deliver UI that works right, as it peppers hidden side effects across your code.

That's why I wasn't too keen on CSS frameworks like Tailwind - I found that when writing frontend code the writing part takes up the minority of the time, it's producing a well thought out layout flow is what is actually the biggest sink of time and effort.

That said, I'm not a frontend dev, and I'm to too good at CSS - but not horrible either - so I defer to the judgement of others who are pros at this, its just my opinion and experience.

warmedcookie

a month ago

If you want a bunch of tailwind class slop, then yes. Otherwise, A lot of context engineering is needed if you want it to write modular tailwind components properly for large projects where consistency is important.

random_duck

a month ago

Agreed. Also I could not imagine being in his shoes, it must be heartbreaking seeing all his work burn like this.

blitzar

a month ago

It is "progress" when tech bros displace traditional workers, but it is "heartbreaking" when a tech bro gets displaced by other tech bros.

Whats the 2026 version of "you should learn to code"?

jstummbillig

a month ago

I think it's fairly sad that somebody feels this needs to be said.

dpedu

a month ago

I don't buy it. They failed to build a sustainable business model and are now suffering the consequences. Everybody is leaning into AI because it works (in the sense that it pays the bills). Saying the layoffs were because of AI offloads the blame.

user

a month ago

[deleted]

krageon

a month ago

He fired a shitload of people, of course we can criticise him

Griffinsauce

a month ago

Three. He fired three people.

Just posting the "75%" without context is a bit of an odd choice. He explains why in the podcast, but it still feels like he should have specified immediately to avoid assumptions about scale.

stavros

a month ago

I'm also criticizing you for not hiring the laid-off people at their former salary.

Alex2037

a month ago

>and he's being honest

oh, come the fuck on. it's "AI made us do it" drivel that companies began to justify layoffs with in 2023 (!!!).

Tailwind is just another FOTM frontend thing. I saw dozens of them come, gain some popularity, then abruptly disappear once the marketing budget ran out.

jact

a month ago

He mentions that tailwind is more popular than ever before but their revenue is down 80% so unless he’s lying about that it makes sense rather than tailwind going out of style.

sosodev

a month ago

The paid products Adam mentions are the pre-made components and templates, right? It seems like the bigger issue isn't reduced traffic but just that AI largely eliminates the need for such things.

While I understand that this has been difficult for him and his company... hasn't it been obvious that this would be a major issue for years?

I do worry about what this means for the future of open source software. We've long relied on value adds in the form of managed hosting, high-quality collections, and educational content. I think the unfortunate truth is that LLMs are making all of that far less valuable. I think the even more unfortunate truth is that value adds were never a good solution to begin with. The reality is that we need everyone to agree that open source software is valuable and worth supporting monetarily without any value beyond the continued maintenance of the code.

K0nserv

a month ago

Having worked on a design system previously I think most people, especially non-frontend developers, discount how hard something like that is to build. LLMs will build stuff that looks plausible but falls short in a bunch of ways (particularly accessibility). This is for the same reason that people generate div-soup, it looks correct on the surface.

EDIT: I suppose what I'm saying is that "The paid products Adam mentions are the pre-made components and templates, right? It seems like the bigger issue isn't reduced traffic but just that AI largely eliminates the need for such thing." is wrong. My hunch is that AI has the appearance of eliminating the need for such things.

sosodev

a month ago

I think you're overestimating how much people care about quality.

h14h

a month ago

The Tailwind Team's Refactoring UI book was a big eye opener for me. I had no idea how many subtle insights are required to create truly effective UX.

I think people vastly underestimate just how much work goes into determining the correct set of primitives create a design system like Tailwind, let alone a full blown component library like TailwindUI.

beberlei

a month ago

While I believe you, its an argument that artists bring forward since the beginning of art, so even many hundred years before the internet on average humankind did not value this work.

xnx

a month ago

> design system ... discount how hard something like that is to build.

This is probably a good thing. The web would be much better off with fewer design systems.

lone-cloud

a month ago

It's not that hard to build a design system with decent accessibility. Just use shadcn ui components instead of rolling your own.

jsheard

a month ago

> The paid products Adam mentions are the pre-made components and templates, right? It seems like the bigger issue isn't reduced traffic but just that AI largely eliminates the need for such things.

Or more cynically that it eliminates the need to pay for such things. Claude and friends were no doubt trained on the commercial Tailwind components, so the question becomes whether those models could have done the job of Tailwind UI without piggybacking on the unpaid labour of the Tailwind UI developers. If not then we clearly have a sustainability problem here - someone still has to do the hard work to push things forward, but with the knowledge that any attempt to profit from that work will be instantly undercut by the copyright laundering Borg.

user

a month ago

[deleted]

jesse_dot_id

a month ago

I bought a Tailwind Plus trial a few years ago and I've been using AI tools since they came out. I typically find the block or template I want to use via the Tailwind Plus site and then feed it into Claude Code and ask the agent to modify them as required. This has been working well for me. I think the problem is that the Internet is absolutely full of people who expect free shit and never even consider paying for it to support the devs. I don't really know how you fix that. In a sane world, we'd be funding the most popular/useful projects using government grants, since our entire fucking economy sits atop a pile of OSS.

YaeGh8Vo

a month ago

Ironically, some of the same people that are ready to pay $200.-/month Claude subscriptions.

user

a month ago

[deleted]

jesse_dot_id

a month ago

Bought a license, not a trial. Freudian slip.

jandy

a month ago

I think you can see this when you look at the downvotes on that GitHub issue on any comment which suggests gating AI access behind a paywall.

spzb

a month ago

AI's going to be a whole lot less useful when it doesn't have any open source component libraries to crib from.

rikschennink

a month ago

I don’t think the scraping party cares about the license, if the JavaScript code is linked online they’ll just take it. Source: see the art industry

throw234234234

a month ago

I think AI has come as the industry was somewhat maturing and most frameworks/software had previous incarnations that mostly did the same thing or could be done adhoc anyway. The need for libraries as the models get better probably declines as well.

Not all open source but a lot of it is fundamentally for humans to consume. If AI can, at its extreme (still remains to be seen), just magic up the software then the value of libraries and a lot of open source software will decline. In some ways its a fundamentally different paradigm of computing, and we don't yet understand what that looks like.

As AI gets better OSS contributes to it; but in its source code feeding the training data not as a direct framework dependency. If the LLM's continue to get better I can see the whole concept of frameworks being less and less necessary.

kjkjadksj

a month ago

They already pay people to generate training data.

legitster

a month ago

Well, you can tell from the tone of his post that he isn't blaming anyone directly. They monetized convenience, and something more convenient came along.

I think it's more shocking to everyone how quickly something like that happens.

suyash

a month ago

Exactly the business model wasn't strong enough, just upselling templates for hundreds of dollars which AI can churn in few tokens was easy to disrupt.

biztos

a month ago

Is AI making component libraries redundant? Or is it just making it really easy to use free component libraries?

(Or is it really more about traffic to the documentation site and thus eyeballs on the sales pitch?)

I'm making an app using ShadCN, which is pretty good and free -- maybe Tailwind Plus would be significantly better, I don't know, I had to consider the possibility that this project never makes any money so I wanted free for the first shot. And the LLMs turn out to know it pretty well.

Once I get it built using ShadCN, it's hard to imagine when I'd have time to go redo all the component hackery with another library, even if it were way better.

I guess my point is just that "paid UI components" is a really tough business when there are so many people willing to make components just for the fun/glory/practice. Same with a lot of UI stuff it seems -- I highly respect icon designers, but I'm probably just going to use Lucide.

keithnz

a month ago

I think all kinds of libraries are becoming redundant. Unless the library solves significant technical problems its likely AI will generate whatever you need. Even tailwind itself is kind of unnecessary, I've used it a lot, but recently been just using AI to generate raw css on side projects, I feel it works pretty well. Tailwind is really a developer convivence, it made things pretty fast to style, but now I don't really think it has anywhere near the advantages it did. If you aren't writing tailwindcss but generating it, almost all the advantage is gone. Only thing it kind of provides is a set of defaults / standards

hiccuphippo

a month ago

I've known of the paid components for years and never thought of buying them. It's so easy to build things with Tailwind that it never crossed my mind.

presentation

a month ago

Fwiw I don’t even think shadcn is good, but our app is built on top of those components already, so we can’t change it without changing everything, so we’re stuck with it.

Vinnl

a month ago

Does it matter whether it's been obvious that it would be a major issue? It's not unlikely that he did realise this a long time ago, and if he did, it's also not unlikely that he still hasn't found a solution, because there might not be one.

tschellenbach

a month ago

Well.. there are many fast growing companies that provide UI + APIs for certain components of your app. Sure you can build things easier in-house, but the opportunity cost of doing so also went up. Supabase, Stream, Clerk, Stainless all growing very well.

tomaskafka

a month ago

> I think the even more unfortunate truth is that value adds were never a good solution to begin with.

This is the money quote for me - charging for a different thing than the one that brings the value is unsustainable, and AI is accelerating that realization.

Unfortunately, without free distribution, Tailwind would never gain anywhere close to its current mindshare, so there just might not be an opening there (save for a "this year is a year of Linux on desktop" dream of bots and pnpm install paying with micropayments for each download).

falloutx

a month ago

How does it eliminates the need for simple templates and components? Templates and components are always gonna be more cost effective, back in the day we used to buy simple jQuery components for like 5*$ and even LLMs cant beat that, you will quickly end up with a shittier component with 0 accessibility and end up paying more to the Claude Opus

spaceman_2020

a month ago

The only thing that can save open source software is open source LLMs

Unfortunately only the Chinese are really being serious about that

nananana9

a month ago

> The reality is that we need everyone to agree that open source software is valuable and worth supporting monetarily

The reality is that you need to figure out is that if you want people to pay when they make a ton of money from your code, you should put that in the license.

throw234234234

a month ago

In the face of LLM's it won't be rational for many people to open source their work. People don't want their work/effort being used against them.

noobermin

a month ago

I've considered no longer uploading work I do to GitHub.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2

a month ago

Agreed. I don't know how realistic it is without a major need that would force major player to abide by it, but yea..

nemomarx

a month ago

Maybe we need patreon equivalents for open source development?

Nextgrid

a month ago

I think we just need better platforms for enterprise procurement.

The issue is that currently you either publish as free & open-source and get tons of traction and usage but little funding, or you publish as paid and get no traction.

The blocker for paid software isn't actually the money itself (this is solvable by just pricing it reasonably), it's all the red tape that someone has to go through to get their company to purchase a license to begin with.

Maybe a marketplace that preemptively does audits, provides insurance, code escrow, licensing, etc ahead of time, that vendors can put their software on it proactively and companies can have accounts where their employees can just open an "app store" and just buy/license software directly? Similar to the AWS marketplace but for libraries.

sosodev

a month ago

It already exists. Tailwind has had GitHub sponsorships enabled for years but only 5 people have ever given them money that way.

simonw

a month ago

Key comment is this one: https://github.com/tailwindlabs/tailwindcss.com/pull/2388#is...

> [...] the reality is that 75% of the people on our engineering team lost their jobs here yesterday because of the brutal impact AI has had on our business. And every second I spend trying to do fun free things for the community like this is a second I'm not spending trying to turn the business around and make sure the people who are still here are getting their paychecks every month. [...]

> Traffic to our docs is down about 40% from early 2023 despite Tailwind being more popular than ever. The docs are the only way people find out about our commercial products, and without customers we can't afford to maintain the framework.

ibejoeb

a month ago

>The docs are the only way people find out about our commercial products

Wall that's the problem, and it's tractable problem. Seems like tailwind needs a sales strategy beyond hoping people read the docs. And that it gives rise to a perverse incentive--making a less intuitive product to drive the need for documentation--is bound to affect the product.

If LLMs are really the problem, and it seems possible that they are, then you might need to lean in. Maybe selling access to mcps and skills. I'd still bet on hiring someone to chase down some contracts is going to be the easiest way out of the hole though.

teaearlgraycold

a month ago

Agreed. If Tailwind could give you a paid subscription to a service that plugs into your agent and will recommend component compositions, styles, etc. (basically how those web app generators companies work but targeted at experienced devs) they have a chance to survive the transition.

TiredOfLife

a month ago

Tailwind can be made less intuitive?

kelnos

a month ago

I feel like if their docs are their only funnel into their commercial product, they need to fire their marketing staff and find people who are competent. There are so many other ways they could be reaching potential customers, even those only familiar with Tailwind's free product.

esperent

a month ago

> There are so many other ways they could be reaching potential customers

Like what, exactly, now that most people interact with tailwind purely via AI agents?

I started work on a front end project React/Astro/Tailwind project for the first time in about a year, building out with CLI agents, and one things that's changed compared to a year ago is that I have the entire UI basically working and I haven't even looked at the tailwind classes. I just say yes that's fine but can you improve the width for the sidebar on mobile (obviously paraphrasing here, I write the requirements for the agent carefully) and within a couple of iterations it's working. I keep expecting to have to jump in to manually fix things but so far I haven't needed to.

I worked in FE for years and I know tailwind and CSS quite deeply. But the entire extent of what I've needed to know for this project so far can be summed up as "it's some kind of styling tool". I never had to look at the docs, I never went to their website, or or Twitter or anywhere else that might have worked for marketing.

I did make an informed decision in choosing this stack, but it's equally likely that the AI could have recommended it to me, and the AI entirely set up the project scaffolding and config for me.

So where in this could they possibly have marketed paid components to me? And even if they did, why would I have paid for them when Shadcn is free and was added automatically by the AI?

heavyset_go

a month ago

They maintained professional etiquette in their marketing and I don't blame them. If you annoy people, they will not recommend you.

I've watched open source projects get lambasted because their developers dared to make a buck. Being conservative with their marketing is what is expected of them even if it isn't fair.

orangepanda

a month ago

> they need to fire their marketing staff

Sounds like they did just that. Ereyesterday.

meken

a month ago

Thanks for that - the GitHub app “helpfully” collapsed this comment (along with most of the others in the thread), so I was confused how the headline related to this issue.

baxtr

a month ago

That traffic is down can have at least two separate AI related causes:

1) Lower amount of impressions on the google search pages due to the AI answers

2) Lower amount of searches since people are using code generators

I wonder which one it is primarily.

satvikpendem

a month ago

Sadly, selling pre-made components and templates was never a sound business model, especially in the wake of AI. One thing I learned being on HN for so long and launching my own products is that a product is not a business. Don't conflate the two, at your peril.

Lots of people make great products but actually turning that into a business is fundamentally a different skill. It seems like Tailwind grew too fast, having 2 million ARR a few years ago and almost 10 employees (200k each is probably the all-in cost anyway for an employee if they're full time with benefits, so I suppose there was barely any profit), whereas they'd probably have been fine with running a Patreon like Evan You did for Vue, and cutting down the number of devs drastically, which I suppose is what they're doing now.

thundergolfer

a month ago

It is a business. Envato was a billion dollar business in 2017. I agree that AI makes these kinds of businesses vulnerable, but it's overstepping to say that these things aren't businesses.

satvikpendem

a month ago

I never said Tailwind the company wasn't a business, when I said "a product is not a business" I meant that as advice to creators in general, not in specific to Tailwind; of course it is, it made millions in revenue. What I meant was that even though businesses may exist, having a long-term, durable business model is not always viable.

ZephyrBlu

a month ago

Definitely more than 200k per head. I remember seeing a job posting for Tailwind Labs for a (design?) engineer which was 250-300k TC.

Seems like it was an insanely profitable product, but a risky business.

f311a

a month ago

It’s still pretty profitable, more than $100k a month

KallDrexx

a month ago

Telerik, DevExpress, and a lot of other companies have made profitable businesses that have lasted well over a decade on that business premise. Selling solid and easy to integrate pre-made components has been a pretty good business for a while.

satvikpendem

a month ago

I wonder how they're doing too then, as we don't have public stats about them (Telerik was acquired by a public company Progress Software but they do not break down revenue by Telerik specifically). Ultimately, this business of selling components is not sound in the age of AI.

Another thing to consider, it seems JS devs use more AI for work than .NET devs for example, which might be in more old-school companies and industries. I can't verify this but there seems to be a correlation between companies who use hip new CSS and JS frameworks, and their AI usage, thus accelerating Tailwind Corp's cannibalization by AI, as most vibe coders are building web apps from what I've seen and Tailwind and React are very well represented in the training set.

EMM_386

a month ago

PrimeTek components (PrimeReact, PrimeNG) are MIT licensed open source.

They also have a CSS utility library (like Tailwind).

TaylorOtwell1

a month ago

Tailwind had several times more than 2M / ARR at their peak.

onehair

a month ago

you have 2 comments in total and a super popular name :-(

user

a month ago

[deleted]

figassis

a month ago

Today, I wanted to add tailwind to a new project and realized I had purchased it back in 2022. So I went to the website and realized it had moved to tailwind plus. That’s how distracted I’ve been. To my surprise my access worked and I could still download the full UI kit.

I know they promised lifetime, but I did not expect updates forever. This looks like the first issue to fix. I would have no issues paying 20% of purchase price for an updated version, that gave me access to 12 months of free updates.

Also, what about paid access to skills or MCP server for design systems and components?

I know these may be things he already considered, so don’t want to presume I have an answer. But as a customer, totally willing to support a good product that has supported me.

falloutx

a month ago

Lovable while claiming they are making $250m ARR heaving using Tailwind, doesnt even pay to support tailwind at all. Although with the AI companies you can never trust the numbers as they play the giving free trials and counting as future ARR game.

kelnos

a month ago

And that's totally fine what Lovable is doing. Tailwind offers an MIT-licensed library that anyone is free to use without paying for it. Tailwind's paid offering is optional, and many businesses won't need it. Just as non-paying users of OSS are not entitled to anything from the maintainers, maintainers are not entitled to revenue from users who are complying with the license terms of their free offering.

As an open source developer myself, it concerns me that so much of what we do us under- and un-funded, but that's the licensing model Tailwind chose. If you want something different, then release it under the AGPL (or something else that businesses aren't comfortable using, or cannot use), and charge for commercial licensing for any use of your product. Yes, you'll have fewer users, but that may be the trade off you need to make in order to build a sustainable business.

gervwyk

a month ago

Great point here, the only thing that feels greedy to me is that these larger companies do not contribute back to the foundational libraries that they are building on, even to a minor extent for ecosystem improvements. Perhaps greedy is a strong word.

i’ve always felt that oss licenses needs to include responsible use terms or something. some orgs dont mind paying for value contributed but you need to provide a structure to do so, even if that is on a voluntary basis.

If anyone from Lovable etc sees these comments, great opportunity for sponsorship where it can make a difference upstream.

Some companies have done this well, at a stage Retool use to sponsor a number of open source libs which greatly helped them with exposure to devs. Surely a better way to spend ad revenue imo.

satvikpendem

a month ago

If you give something away for free, don't complain when people take it for free. Make it AGPL instead then.

paxys

a month ago

While I'm sure AI is partially to blame, I feel like the real problem is that (1) they don't have a sensible business model and (2) they have saturated their market.

There are relatively few individuals and organizations out there with products that are worth spending vendor money on, especially for something like a CSS library. Companies that do have this need are ready to spend BIG.

Tailwind charges a one-time fee in the hundreds of dollars range and pledges lifetime support.

When they say revenue is down 80%, it's because everyone already bought their library in its first few years of existence. And looking at their site there is nothing else to spend money on. So how are they planning to sustain their revenue?

dbbk

a month ago

They were selling HTML templates. Not even anything else, literally just HTML with Tailwind classes. That wasn't a sustainable business even before AI.

hdra

a month ago

i remember listening to Adam in one of the podcast he was in (I think it was either the Hackers Inc, or the Art of Product, but could've been something else where he was a guest) - and I remember that he mentioned that idea that there are always a new wave of new developers that they can sell the product to.

I still think he was correct. I myself bought tailwindUI as an aspirational purchase, and i doubt people would pay for it as a subscription.

But I think a lot has changed in the last few years. There arent probably as many new developers given the market, and among those there are probably even less that are willing to pay $100+ for a UI library, not when there are competitions like shadcn or radix or many others as free alternative, or when you could just ask an LLM to generate them for you.

Tailwind Labs definitely need to explore new revenue streams, but i dont think UI components is the way to go. Without knowing their internal data, this is just a guess, but I doubt traffic to docs or pipeline to premium products is much of a factor in the decline.

shunia_huang

a month ago

I believe the new UI libraries hit hard more than the AI impact. AI is not always that accurate so eventually if you want to deep dive in, you still have to turn around to the doc. But the new libraries though, they give the market another good choice, especially when shadcn came out, it's so huge that I personally even feels there's no need to go for the raw Tailwind experience, and what's worse is that shadcn is still evolving fast.

I believe the only way to let Tailwind survive is changing the business model.

aurareturn

a month ago

They had a business model good enough to employ a few people. Not every business needs to be Google’s Adsense.

LLMs are clearly to “blame” here. You can make any component with LLMs from scratch or it will expertly use one of the many existing UI frameworks.

fantasizr

a month ago

they were never positioned as a unicorn, the question becomes can you be a small business/SMB in software/tech

lifetimerubyist

a month ago

They had a sensible business model UNTIL AI came around. As usual, AI is just destroying everything it touches.

Not every business should need hyperscaling mega-exit unicorn enshittification.

Lifestyle and small businesses are good and of course these are being crushed by our new oligarchs.

> It's because everyone already bought their library in its first few years of existence

Literally everyone? No new developers being trained? No new tailwind users?

stevoski

a month ago

As a fellow business owner, I’ll always feel bad when business owners need to make these types of decisions.

I bought Tailwind UI - I always thought it was a critically bad business decision from their end to keep giving me additional new stuff for free. It seemed to me that it should have been a subscription.

However, knowing nothing about the inside of their business, I have no idea how that would have affected their viability.

camdenreslink

a month ago

He goes into detail the motivation/decision to do lifetime pricing vs subscription pricing here: https://hackersincorporated.com/episodes/lifetime-pricing-is...

The idea is that subscription businesses have churn, and if you can capture the lifetime value of a customer with your one time price, there isn't any difference (other than people feeling grateful when you add new content for "free").

mootothemax

a month ago

That’s an excellent point, thanks for linking.

My takeaway from this thread is: his theory’s great until you discover that your customers are wiling pay *so* much more.

On a more positive note, I’ve been blown away by the (largely, one conspicuous troll-like annoyance aside) positive thoughts in the comments. Maybe it’s not too late?

giancarlostoro

a month ago

> It seemed to me that it should have been a subscription.

The one time fee should have been for personal licenses, and a annual subscription for businesses.

sbarre

a month ago

I like the approach of paying for major upgrades.. So you get free updates on your current version for as long as you want, but when the next major update comes out, you either stick with your current version at no cost (and ideally still get maintenance and security patches) but if you want the next major version, there's an upgrade cost.

That feels fair to me.

freedomben

a month ago

> I always thought it was a critically bad business decision from their end to keep giving me additional new stuff for free. It seemed to me that it should have been a subscription.

Maybe. One data point isn't all that useful, but I never would have bought it if it weren't for the model he chose. I will never, ever do a subscription for something like that.

stevoski

a month ago

Right, but you can do a one-off purchase to get the product as it existed at the time. Instead they offered all future improvements in the price.

This is not sustainable once your customer growth dies down, as it eventually did.

mootothemax

a month ago

I guess this is what makes marketing so tricky; I myself would’ve bought a $10/mo subscription so much sooner given the chance, which by now - and happily, incidentally - would’ve brought in way more dosh than my one-off payment.

SkyPuncher

a month ago

I think it’s simple that people aren’t using CSS frameworks because the AI creates CSS on its own.

hdra

a month ago

i bought Tailwind UI years ago and have barely used it outside of like a couple of abandoned side projects. I bought it knowing that is going to happen because it is a one-time payment, and the idea of supporting the project/Adam is prob a bigger factor that the product.

I definitely wont even consider it if its a subscription.

Selling UI components is a hard sell to begin with - i think they made the right decision with a one-time point payment at that higher price point. If it were a subscription, i probably would've cancelled it within 2 or 3 months.

bilekas

a month ago

I can't get over the Author of the CR addi g his responses on TikTok.. What have we come to?

falloutx

a month ago

if the coding agents are already using Tailwind so much, I don't see why he is so adamant on add this to the repo. llms.txt is basically useless, and you need it you can add it to your user claude.md

dormento

a month ago

Oh $DEITY you just reminded me of summer of code.

katdork

a month ago

that's why I complained about it in the PR, mmm, I thought it was grossly unprofessional of him (besides the things he said in the discussion.

e.g. Tech changes all the time, that isn't an excuse to be a dick. e.g. ok dude, don't expect any future free work from me in the future on any of your projects going forward. Rude AF.)

also, I just realised, that PR is an excuse to get the library he made (https://github.com/quantizor/markdown-to-jsx) used within TailwindCSS :p

akuchling

a month ago

Stray thought: adding a library the PR submitter controls would be a good starting point for an XZ/SSH-style supply chain attack: badger & threaten the maintainers to add the dependency, and then sneak something into a future library update.

ifwinterco

a month ago

I'm not normally one to do armchair psychology but from the way he posts I'm pretty sure he's just on the spectrum, obviously smart but total inability to read the room or understand other people's perspectives

lloydatkinson

a month ago

It's peak brain fried slop that's for sure

bitbasher

a month ago

It's on Github, I'm not surprised. I'd be surprised if you got a TokTok response on sourcehut.

anematode

a month ago

We really are in the worst timeline, huh? I wish there were professional consequences for this kind of online behavior.

b34r

a month ago

[flagged]

reducesuffering

a month ago

How about in GitHub comments like everyone else? You're just self-promoting

drivesafely

a month ago

Film whatever you want but please please please don't film or use your phone while driving. It's incredibly dangerous and inconsiderate to all those you endanger.

3rodents

a month ago

The biggest miss from Tailwind is ignoring the rest of the ecosystem. Rightly or wrongly, everyone has moved on to using shadcn's system for components. Tailwind hasn't. Tailwind has excellent components available through Plus which are worth paying for but they're not available where people are, which pushes people towards other libraries built on top of Tailwind. I have paid for Tailwind Plus and I like their Catalyst UI and I have used it on a project but it's a pain to use compared to alternatives, so, I don't bother.

I'd go as far as to guess that their revenue isn't down due to AI but because of their lifetime access model combined with shadcn's registry system being much easier to use.

Prediction: Tailwind acquired by Vercel.

normie3000

a month ago

> everyone has moved on to using shadcn's system for components

This may be an exaggeration.

Culonavirus

a month ago

DaisyUI also seems to be popular.

mexicocitinluez

a month ago

It is.

At least in the React space where there are a ton of libraries like Mantine or React Aria which I use.

kelnos

a month ago

> everyone has moved on to using shadcn's system for components

I played around with shadcn for a new project a year or so ago, decided I really didn't like their fundamental approach of copying code (that now I have to maintain) into my code base. So I ended up using something else (DaisyUI), which has been reasonably nice so far.

I'm just one person (and one not super plugged into the frontend scene), but "everyone" feels like a gross overestimation. I would guess it's not even a majority.

wnevets

a month ago

> everyone has moved on to using shadcn's system for components.

This is the first time I've seen anyone ever mention it.

another_twist

a month ago

I tried ShadCN then quickly ported everything over to Mantine. A bit of config magic later, I can quickly whip out functional UIs faster than I can think of features.

la_oveja

a month ago

>everyone has moved on to using shadcn's system for components

shadcn only works in react, tailwind works everywhere

gloosx

a month ago

I don't even know who the hell uses them systems for components.

Just trowing a flex-box and a few good ol' css rules does 99.999% of the job usually.

$300 for UI blocks? For what? A div with flex, gap, and padding?

jascha_eng

a month ago

I like this prediction and it would be a good fit. Vercel can also monetize existing traffic much more broadly than tailwind can with just tailwind plus.

llmslave2

a month ago

> Rightly or wrongly, everyone has moved on to using shadcn's system for components.

Everyone in your bubble on X maybe.

ninefoxgambit

a month ago

I wish Adam had addressed the impact of competition in a bit more detail.

Shadcn has definitely taken a big chunk, the premium ecosystem around Shadcn is absolutely exploding. I know. I run https://www.shadcnblocks.com and we saw huge month on month growth in revenue for the entire year.

Even with strong headwinds from AI, I expect our revenue to continue increasing throughout 2026.

willio58

a month ago

Wow. This is wild. I have a mix of empathy for the guy and also a feeling like he has no idea what he's doing running a business.

> Traffic to our docs is down about 40% from early 2023 despite Tailwind being more popular than ever. The docs are the only way people find out about our commercial products, and without customers we can't afford to maintain the framework.

So his idea is to make Tailwind less modern than competitors by throwing a wrench in this tool that makes it easier to write tailwind with AI, simply because he thinks the only way Tailwind can make money is if actual human beings come to read the docs site? If that's the case, your income is based on products that's are not high enough value to potential customers, or you're marketing it poorly, or both.

> And every second I spend trying to do fun free things for the community like this is a second I'm not spending trying to turn the business around and make sure the people who are still here are getting their paychecks every month.

I get priorization but this isn't really that. He's not saying "I'll get to this when I find some time. Busy with high-priority business-related things right now.". He's saying "AI is going to be the end of profits for tailwind and instead of coming up with an alternative income stream I'm going to just block anything making tailwind easier to use with tailwind. And also stop complaining about it."

It sucks to fire people, but that doesn't mean you have to spread the flames out to open source contributors trying to make tailwind better for everyone. Look for new income streams, ideally ones that can be sold to people that control the money in companies (that isn't often the devs that are in your docs).

ncallaway

a month ago

> I get priorization but this isn't really that. He's not saying "I'll get to this when I find some time. Busy with high-priority business-related things right now."

I don't really understand how you can find a difference between your sentence with what he wrote:

> I totally see the value in the feature and I would like to find a way to add it.

> But the reality is that 75% of the people on our engineering team lost their jobs here yesterday because of the brutal impact AI has had on our business. And every second I spend trying to do fun free things for the community like this is a second I'm not spending trying to turn the business around and make sure the people who are still here are getting their paychecks every month.

Pretty sure those are the same picture

yagizdegirmenci

a month ago

This is the most pragmatic, non-conformist and rational comment here.

Exactly, when the Renaissance was happening, the printing machine(s) were spreading across the Europe rapidly, priest(s) were trying to prevent the spread of machines because they were copying the books, by hand, which was their income stream.

So they were against it, in the end, they learned their lesson the hard way. It was inevitable, it's the same thing with the LLM(s).

> And every second I spend trying to do fun free things for the community like this is a second I'm not spending trying to turn the business around and make sure the people who are still here are getting their paychecks every month.

Yeah, that is a quite depressing situation, but saying "trying to do fun free things for the community..." is quite contradictory.

Isn't that how that community is created in the first place?

I also don't understand the logical thinking that made them think that, if we make it harder to gather information with LLM(s) or if we do not improve it, people will keep coming to our website, NO!

They would just simply grab something similar, or ask an LLM to use something else, there are hundreds of alternatives, no one, literally no one has moat in the today(s) world.

I believe that if they focused solely on open source, improving the developer experience, creating more libraries, abstraction(s) over the abstraction(s), open source component libraries like shadcn/ui, DaisyUI, Radix etc, their income today would have been much higher than from what they currently have I believe.

There are many, like so many action items that Adam could do, instead of throwing tantrums at people, easiest could have been the sponsor-first business model, which would have scaled out much better I mean, they don't have recurring revenue, OSS sponsorships are mostly recurring, unlike the current model.

serbanghita

a month ago

Good analogy but it feels a bit different, in a sense that the LLMs index all your content and then you don't benefit from any of that outcome. You essentially had no saying to the process of indexing, whether it's MIT licensed or else.

I'd say that this is a very interesting situation, I would not blame it on the founder. Nobody saw this coming ...

javier123454321

a month ago

I'd be sympathetic to this take if

1. The contribution actually made something useful

2. He actually said anything to the note of "I'm going to just block anything making tailwind easier to use with ai."

3. The contributor was not adding an external library that he authored without mentioning it in the comments

I defer 100% to maintainers of a project if an external contributor drops a pr that they are now in charge of maintaining with no evidence that it is useful, or that the author of the change will maintain.

willio58

a month ago

> The contributor was not adding an external library that he authored without mentioning it in the comments

Good point, I made the mistake of skimming and missed that part.

tylerchilds

a month ago

I’ll be honest.

I’m a contributor to this.

I’ve been CSS since the mid 2000s and I have a lot of it memorized by heart.

My team uses tailwind, therefore I use tailwind

But I don’t want to reconfigure my mental model to think in esoteric shorthand, when I already have vanilla web tech memorized.

So I just write some code to match the design and then I let an llm transform it into what my team expects.

I’m sharing in the hopes that the tailwind team can figure out a middle ground because I think a service that can take any valid styled content and output the same result in tailwind would be a niche small language model that solves the use case for why I don’t go to the docs.

barrkel

a month ago

The shorthand makes inline style more ergonomic, so you can see the wood for the trees, rather than long strings of style attributes in your markup.

Inline style is the thing. That's what tailwind is enabling in a readable way. And inlined style is what makes style more maintainable and less susceptible to override rot.

The separation between form and function is always a bit illusionary, but particularly so with CSS. Almost all markup is written to look a specific way, not a configurable way.

koakuma-chan

a month ago

Every project I worked on that used CSS was a mess. It's always 1000 line SCSS files and nobody knows what is going on there.

pier25

a month ago

> It's always 1000 line SCSS files and nobody knows what is going on there

It's been 15-20 years since I last saw that.

There are tons of solutions on how to easily organize CSS code these days that don't involve TW.

spoiler

a month ago

> and nobody knows what is going on there.

For what its worth, I had the same experience with Tailwind. I regularly see classes that don't have an meaningful outcome.

I don't think the problem is Tailwind or CSS (well, I guess Tailwind is CSS with extra steps but you get the idea) syntax (or any of the CSS preprocessors), but the fact that styling in browsers has accumulated a lot of cruft, and people who haven't "grown up" with it over the years don't fully understand it (I am more competent than most with it and there's still times I screw up).

One thing that's kinda nice about Tailwind is that it made copy-pasting components easier. So people can get something decent without fully understanding what's happening

tylerchilds

a month ago

Yeah, I’m not advocating for css or against tailwind

Just sharing that the root cause is most developers don’t want to pick up an additional syntax when they already have the fundamentals

The main problem is the premise of tailwind

Every single web design on earth is a compound opinion on like a few hundred popular properties and values

They put all that in one style sheet

Which became the one style sheet on earth

Which made it possible to summon all those styles directly from within our apps

Tailwind is like the chess of utilities. There’s only so many opening and closing moves that running a business on it is incredibly difficult, given supply and demand.

samiv

a month ago

After we've completed the knowledge transfer from the public domain, across all potential sources of information, from books to open source code to private data banks and LLMs then what comes next? Destroying the said works so that nobody else can access them ? Privatize knowledge, hoard all the data, limit access, sell ads?

ramoz

a month ago

Here is a link to their commercial offerings.

https://tailwindcss.com/plus?ref=top

dallen33

a month ago

There should be a monthly option - I'd pay for that.

maronato

a month ago

If the goal is to support them, they do offer a subscription: https://tailwindcss.com/sponsor#insiders

While the content is different, it’s much cheaper than Tailwind Plus. If you use AI, it may even be more useful than Plus because of the great agent rules and discord community.

agentifysh

a month ago

i just gave my favorite LLM a screenshot of one of those components and it recreated it perfectly. i paid $0.

i dont see how any business model can compete with free. maybe they can focus on branding like Pepsi or Coke and see if developers will make their decisions based on that.

i_have_an_idea

a month ago

> i just gave my favorite LLM a screenshot of one of those components and it recreated it perfectly. i paid $0.

Because it's most likely in the training data. I.e., it stole it for you.

falloutx

a month ago

how do you know it recreated perfectly. Is it equally customizable? Is it equally accessible? And your LLM models cost money too. If you use the API keys, you can quickly see the cost.

bkorte

a month ago

When I saw this on HN, I instantly felt terrible for Adam & the team. Happy to see that these comments are mostly supportive, they could have easily piled on the pain.

Listen to his podcast episode if you want his raw feelings on this - https://adams-morning-walk.transistor.fm/episodes/we-had-six...

Very happy Tailwind Plus and Insiders customer here.

theturtletalks

a month ago

Tailwind Plus was always tricky since most people would use it for commercial products and that seemed like a grey area based on their licensing. Then shadcn came along and all the Tailwind Plus alternatives (many times recreating the same UI elements that plus has) and then people just copied and used those components and polished further using AI.

Before Tailwind got big, Adam released an amazing book about UI/UX called Refactoring UI[0] and it really helped me become better and understand subtleties of design. I even considered printing a personal physical book for my coffee table. If you want to support Adam and don't need Tailwind Plus, this ebook could be a good way.

[0]. https://www.refactoringui.com/

freedomben

a month ago

(IANAL) Using it for commercial products isn't grey area at all, it's explicitly allowed. Pretty much all you can't do is create a component library based on it. You can also freely use it in open source as long as you aren't making a component library.

If it wasn't usable in commercial products, I don't think anyone would pay for it.

theturtletalks

a month ago

I should’ve clarified. My apps are all open source so it didn’t feel right putting their UI for free out there. It does happen in some projects but it felt easier just to design components myself.

kamaal

a month ago

>>Adam released an amazing book about UI/UX called Refactoring UI[0] and it really helped me become better and understand subtleties of design.

In the age of AI, if you have Table of Contents. ChatGPT can write the book for you.

Only books I buy these days are in fiction genre. Everything else is derived from facts that already exist some where and AI can derive and write the whole book.

lionkor

a month ago

Not only are you wrong (LLMs are horrible at reproducing anything that isn't fairly ABUNDANT in the training data), but it's also quite sad.

AI can write a whole book on anything. You can take anything, even make up a phenomenon, and have an AI write a whole factual-sounding book on it.

How that isn't clearly an indicator to you that it produces loads and loads of BS, I'm really not sure.

mmcnl

a month ago

Wow, this is a grim reality check: AI hyperscalers taking in billions of revenue, while at the same time putting honest business like Tailwind out of work, without any form of compensation. What happened to "you wouldn't steal a car" etc.? It's only illegal if you're not a trillion dollar company?

I have trouble expressing how terrible unjust it feels that AI companies are stealing money from the common people. I have no other way to put it.

Also: this will definitely limit the use of AI. People will stop publishing valuable content for free on the internet, if AI scrapers will steal and monetize it.

chuckadams

a month ago

The ad was "You wouldn't download a car." To which my response was always a loud "HELL yes, I would!"

reddalo

a month ago

That was an internet meme. The real ad said "You wouldn't steal a car".

gnarlouse

a month ago

I’m not sure this is such a reality check. I remember figuring this out maybe a month or so after October 2023, when ChatGippity first dropped. Like, if it’s a “do anything platform” won’t the first anything be to cannibalize low hanging anything’s, followed by progressively higher hanging anything’s until there’s no work left?

Like play out AI, it sucks for everybody except the ones holding the steering wheel, unless we hold them accountable for the changing landscape of stake-in-civilization distribution. Spoiler: haha, we sure fucking aren’t in the US.

TeMPOraL

a month ago

> Like play out AI, it sucks for everybody except the ones holding the steering wheel

Not true. Models don't make owners money sitting there doing nothing - they only get paid when people find value in what AI is producing for them. The business model of AI companies is actually almost uniquely honest compared to rest of software industry: they rent you a tool that produces value for you. No enshittification, no dark patterns, no taking your data hostage, no turning into a service what should've been a product. Just straightforward exchange of money for value.

So no, it doesn't such for everyone except them. It only sucks for existing businesses that find themselves in competition with LLMs. Which, true, is most of software industry, but it's still just something that happens when major technological breakthrough is achieved. Electricity and Internet and internal combustion engines did the same thing to many past industries, too.

agentifysh

a month ago

this whole "ai is theft" argument is just pure cope. tailwind was always just a thin abstraction over css standards and they only became the industry standard by playing the seo game and dumping docs on the open web for everyone to see. you dont get to claim theft when a model actually learns the patterns you basically forced onto the world for free to build your brand. tailwinds business model was essentially rent seeking on the fact that css is tedious to write manually and now that the marginal cost of production has dropped to near zero they are suprised they cant sell 300 dollar templates anymore.

the car comparison is honestly embarassing for this community to even bring up lol. its not theft to recognize a pattern and its definately not illegal for a company to do what every junior dev has been doing for years which is reading the docs and then not buying the paid stuff. adam built a business that relied on human inefficiency and now that inefficiency is gone. its not a tragedy its just a market correction. if your moat is so shallow that a llm can drain it in one pass then you didnt really have a product you just had a temporary advantage. honestly tailwind should of seen this coming a mile away but i guess its easier to blame "scrapers" than admit the ui kit gravy train is over. move on and build something that actually provides value.

mmcnl

a month ago

It doesn't matter what Tailwind your opinion is. It matters that they built something which definitely has market validation that people were willing to pay for. AI took their lunch AND their lunch money.

monooso

a month ago

You're clearly not a fan of Tailwind, and that's fair enough.

However, stating that Adam Wathan (AW) "basically forced [Tailwind] onto the world" is nonsense. People chose to adopt it because it solved a problem.

In case you're not familiar with the origins of Tailwind, AW was building a SaaS live on stream, and everyone kept asking about the little utility CSS framework he'd built for himself (rather than the short-lived SaaS).

That's how it all started. Not through a big SEO campaign, or the mysterious ability to force others to choose a CSS framework against their will, but because people saw it, and wanted to use it.

imiric

a month ago

> this whole "ai is theft" argument is just pure cope. tailwind was always just a thin abstraction over css standards

Both of those can be true.

ambicapter

a month ago

I love the poster with the AI-generated avatar admonishing him for not making the software "easy to use" and suggesting that this will hamper his business, completely papering over the fact that LLMs will never be "potential monetization candidates" (ew, wording).

pico303

a month ago

When I started working on one of my side projects a year or so ago, I realized I didn't have time to figure out how to style each and every component, so I paid for Tailwind Plus. It was pricey, and I definitely had to think about it for a few days, but I'm so glad I did. It saved me way more time than the dollar value of the product, and it has continued to get better.

If you are using Tailwind, I highly recommend Tailwind Plus. You'll learn so much about what Tailwind can do using that library, and it is so easy to adapt into your own offerings. It is 100% worth it.

Hearing that they're struggling, I may have to also bite the bullet and pick up Refactoring UI.

Note: I am in no way connected to the Tailwind folks other than through my credit card.

solarkraft

a month ago

It’s crazy to me that it was ever a business to begin with.

Cool, in a way! But this feels like just going back to normal.

mpeg

a month ago

Apparently they were 8+ people, in 2024 team size was 6 and were hiring 2 more [0] and in 2020 they had $2m+ ARR [1].

Honestly, while I feel bad for the people who lost their jobs the news aren't exactly surprising. Overhiring is a game for VC funded OSS like bun, not usually a good idea for bootstrapped companies.

[0]: https://tailwindcss.com/blog/hiring-a-design-engineer-and-st...

[1]: https://adamwathan.me/tailwindcss-from-side-project-byproduc...

bradly

a month ago

> 2020 they had $2m+ ARR

You've got an extra "R" in there. In 2020 their only revenue from was non-recurring lifetime software purchases. Like SaaS if you had a 100% churn rate.

ZephyrBlu

a month ago

On his morning walk/podcast thing about the topic he said 75% of the team = 3 developers

TaylorOtwell1

a month ago

Tailwind had several times more than 2M / ARR at their peak.

sp4cec0wb0y

a month ago

A lot of open source projects attempt to become a business in some form or another (or vice versa). Great examples of this include Astral (creators of UV and Ruff), TursoDB, TigerBeetle, etc etc etc. People want to get paid for the project they work on. Some of their business models will fail. This is probably a case of tailwind growing their engineering team faster than they should have when the AI writing was on the wall in 2023.

mpeg

a month ago

I think a problem is that tailwind has no moat compared to most of those. If it never received any further updates today it would still be effectively feature-complete, save for the occasional new css features.

legitster

a month ago

It's insane how much AIs use Tailwind and yet the companies aren't contributing anything. It would be trivial for Anthropic or Cursor to pay something.

Would it work to have a new free-use license that explicitly excludes LLMs? Make them pay royalties - you'd have to use something like public license keys. But if Spotify pays a trivial license payment for every stream - Claude could contribute something when it recommends a project.

munificent

a month ago

> It would be trivial for Anthropic or Cursor to pay something.

You don't get rich by paying people what they deserve.

chuckadams

a month ago

How would you possibly enforce this? I can disconnect my laptop from the internet and the local LLM will still autocomplete TW classes. Does JetBrains therefore owe TW every time it does this? What if it was actually completing UnoCSS class names that happen to overlap? How about when it's just simple autocomplete based on what classes are visible and what I've used within the same file?

These might sound like snide rhetorical questions, but when you start demanding payment, they're very real.

legitster

a month ago

> How would you possibly enforce this?

The legal system.

If you see a bunch of Tailwind markup on websites without a license key, you can enforce your license. The LLMs can write the code for you, but they either have to negotiate their own license or instruct users to get their own.

The comparable I am familiar with is Font Awesome. Even if you want a free plan, you still have to create an account and get a key.

quaintdev

a month ago

If they tailwind, it sets a precedent for others. They can't pay everyone.

dafelst

a month ago

So you're saying that just because they can't pay everyone, they should pay no one?

prmoustache

a month ago

> It's insane how much AIs use Tailwind and yet the companies aren't contributing anything. It would be trivial for Anthropic or Cursor to pay something.

Paying someone fairly for its contribution to society? This won't pass here in the free world as it sounds like a dangerous communist idea. How are we supposed to become richer than our neighbor that way?

ctippett

a month ago

You can really feel the stress in Adam's comments. It must play absolute hell with your mental health, it's anxiogenic from the sidelines just thinking about it. Stay healthy and safe mate.