Those three positions are all extreme viewpoints. There are certainly people who hold them, and they tend to be loud and confident and have an outsize presence in HN and other places online.

But a lot of us have a more nuanced take! It's perfectly possible to believe simultaneously that 1) LLMs are more than stochastic parrots 2) LLMs are useful for software development 3) LLMs have all sorts of limitations and risks (you can produce unmaintainable slop with them, and many people will, there are massive security issues, I can go on and on...) 4) We're not getting AGI or world-destroying super-intelligence anytime soon, if ever 5) We're in a bubble and it's going to pop and cause a big mess 6) This tech is still going to be transformative long term, on a similar level to the web and smartphones.

Don't let the noise from the extreme people who formed their opinions back when ChatGPT came out drown out serious discussion! A lot of us try and walk a middle course with this and have been and still are open to changing our minds.

You can download a base model (aka foundation, aka pretrain-only) from huggingface and test it out. These were produced without any RL.

However, most modern LLMs, even base models, would be not just trained on raw internet text. Most of them were also fed a huge amount of synthetic data. You often can see the exact details in their model cards. As a result, if you sample from them, you will notice that they love to output text that looks like:

  6. **You will win millions playing bingo.**
     - **Sentiment Classification: Positive**
     - **Reasoning:** This statement is positive as it suggests a highly favorable outcome for the person playing bingo.

The essence of it is that after the "read the whole internet and predict the next token" pre-training step (and the chat fine-tuning), SotA LLMs now have a training step where they solve huge numbers of tasks that have verifiable answers (especially programming and math). The model therefore gets the very broad general knowledge and natural language abilities from pre-training and gets good at solving actual problems (problems that can't be bullshitted or hallucinated through because they have some verifiable right answer) from the RL step. In ways that still aren't really understood, it develops internal models of mathematics and coding that allow it to generalize to solve things it hasn't seen before. That is why LLMs got so much better at coding in 2025; the success of tools like Claude Code (to pick just one example) is built upon it. Of course, the LLMs still have a lot of limitations (the internal models are not perfect and aren't like how humans think at all), but RL has taken us pretty far.

Unfortunately the really interesting details of this are mostly secret sauce stuff locked up inside the big AI labs. But there are still people who know far more than I do who do post about it, e.g. Andrej Karpathy discusses RL a bit in his 2025 LLMs Year in Review: https://karpathy.bearblog.dev/year-in-review-2025/

In my experience this is a substantial difference in the ability to really get performance in LLM related engineering work from people who really understand how LLMs work vs people who think it's a magic box.

If your mental model of an LLM is:

> a synthetic human performing reasoning

You are severely overestimating the capabilities of these models and not realizing potential areas of failure (even if your prompt works for now in the happy case). Understanding how transformers work absolutely can help debug problems (or avoid them in the first place). People without a deep understanding of LLMs also tend to get fooled by them more frequently. When you have internalized the fact that LLMs are literally optimistized to trick you, you tend to be much more skeptical of the initial results (which results in better eval suites etc).

Then there's people who actually do AI engineering. If you're working with local/open weights models or on the inference end of things you can't just play around with an API, you have a lot more control and observability into the model and should be making use of it.

I still hold that the best test of an AI Engineer, at any level of the "AI" stack, is how well they understand speculative decoding. It involves understanding quite a bit about how LLMs work and can still be implemented on a cheap laptop.

> LLMs is just a synthetic human

1) ‘human’ encompasses behaviours that include revenge cannibalism and recurrent sexual violence —- wish carefully.

2) not even a little bit, and if you want to pretend then pretend they’re a deranged delusional psych patient who will look you in the eye and say genuinely “oops, I guess I was lying, it won’t ever happen again” and then lie to you again, while making sure happens again.

3) don’t anthropomorphize LLMs, they don’t like it.

> is just a synthetic human performing reasoning

The future is now! (Not because of "a synthetic human" per se but because of people thinking of them as something unremarkable.)

I think there are two key differences though: 1) Attention doesn't doesn't use fixed distance-dependent weight for the aggregation but instead the weight becomes "semantically-dependent", based on association between q/k. 2) A single convolution step is a local operation (only pulling from nearby pixels), whereas attention is a "global" operation, pulling from the hidden states of all previous tokens. (Maybe sliding window attention schemes muddy this distinction, but in general the degree of connectivity seems far higher).

There might be some unifying way to look at things though, maybe GNNs. I found this talk [1] and at 4:17 it shows how convolution and attention would be modeled in a GNN formalism

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1YCdVogd14

This wasn't any better than other explanation I've seen.

As the first comment says "This aged like fine wine". Six years old, but the fundamentals haven't changed.

Perhaps we have already reached ASI. :)

Seconding this, the terms "Query" and "Value" are largely arbitrary and meaningless in practice, look at how to implement this in PyTorch and you'll see these are just weight matrices that implement a projection of sorts, and self-attention is always just self_attention(x, x, x) or self_attention(x, x, y) in some cases, where x and y are are outputs from previous layers.

Plus with different forms of attention, e.g. merged attention, and the research into why / how attention mechanisms might actually be working, the whole "they are motivated by key-value stores" thing starts to look really bogus. Really it is that the attention layer allows for modeling correlations and/or multiplicative interactions among a dimension-reduced representation.

I personally don't think implementation is as enlightening as far as really understanding what the model is doing as this statement implies. I had done that many times, but it wasn't until reading about the relationship to kernel methods that it really clicked for me what is really happening under the hood.

Don't get me wrong, implementing attention is still great (and necessary), but even with something as simple as linear regression, implementing it doesn't really give you the entire conceptual model. I do think implementation helps to understand the engineering of these models, but it still requires reflection and study to start to understand conceptually why they are working and what they're really doing (I would, of course, argue I'm still learning about linear models in that regard!)

Do you have a tutorial that I can follow?