I am going to summarize with - they want you to use their app for monetization and ux purposes.

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2.6.3. Fraud Prevention

Ill-intentioned persons may falsify their BCBP by changing the flight number or class of service. They may also simply print two copies of the BCBP and pass one to a friend, or even create a counterfeit BCBP. Technical solutions exist, e.g. algorithms, called certificates, which can for example secure the bar code if necessary.

Their goal is not my goal. My goal is to fly to a destination. A paper ticket has always been enough for that. And if they want to upsell a web page can be full of upselling too. But I don't want upsells, only a flight and air companies are commodities. Imagine if I had to install an app for every chain of gas pumps around my country and the nearby ones.

I don't think it helps if you're arguing their position. We don't want to allow them to upsell. They're crossing the line into social ostracization grounds.

At this point, their destruction of social trust is so severe that simply boycotting is not enough, just like you don't just boycott a company that's doing environmental destruction. They simply need to be stopped, regardless of their goals.

You can upsell just fine through a website.

So far, you can just download the boarding pass to apple/google wallet after checking in. Only dark patterns are in their booking process.

Ryanair is the dark pattern. Like damn.

It is said on their website that if you lose your phone or it dies, you can get a free boarding pass at the airport.

Source: https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/lp/explore/digital-boarding-pa...

Particularly for airlines. For years actually flying passengers hasn't been profitable, it's all about side income that makes a profit [1].

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/the-four-biggest-us-airlines-al...

It absolutely doesn't take an app to issue a boarding pass which will appear in your Apple Wallet. It's literally a zip (with extension .pkpass) containing a master JSON, a few assets like logos and a digital signature. There are tutorials for making your own.

Many airlines let you download one once you check in on their website, or email you one, or embed a download link in an SMS, just to name 3 alternatives.

Why does a boarding pass need a rootkit? ("anticheat" is usually code for root kits, and at least it has some positive trade off for users in the video game case)

They can just check the scanned pass against their own database to verify authenticity. They could also cryptographically sign it.

It may be "quite normal" to you, but that doesn't mean it's good. Stockholm syndrome comes to mind here.

Until technology gives us better controls, we must assume that every app, particularly those from large profit-driven corporations, is hostile.

You can usually get the ticket printed at the desk, print it at home, have a PDF on any device like a Kindle, take a screenshot of the QR code, add to your wallet on your phone even without proprietary apps, etc…

I download the airline’s apps, but I hate relying exclusively on these potentially unreliable apps, or unreliable phones so I always get the ticket in other formats, too: always have an analog version, and some form of digital version on at least two devices.

I don’t travel often, but when I do, missing a flight would be expensive or annoying, so it’s a reasonable trade off for me, ymmv. With that said, I also don’t fly Ryanair, so they can do whatever they want.

No. I'm app fatigued and over it. Let's put some power back into he hands of consumers for once.

Why do you need to download and run an app to get your ticket into your phone's Wallet?

> If you require special accommodation at any point in the process don't fly via a super budget value airline

That sounds pretty illegal if they aren't making accommodations for disabilities.

It's also a marketing channel for future flights. The app almost certainly asks for notification permissions, and most people will say yes -- they're useful for knowing if your flight is delayed or there's a gate change.

Now they have a channel where they can let you know about deals, etc. I'm sure they've modeled exactly how much this is worth, and I'd be willing to bet it's a lot.

The upsell opportunity isn't worth anywhere near $50 though. I suspect it acts as a price discrimination filter. You make people jump through hoops (ie. installing an app) to save some money, with the expectation that people who are willing to jump through hoops are more price sensitive, and would also be willing to switch to another airline.

Stupid question here, because I haven't flown with Ryanair in like almost 10 years, but I've recently flown with WizzAir and after checking-in online (the night before) it generated a .pdf boarding pass which I saved on my phone. I was then able to get onto the plane by presenting the QR code from said .pdf, i.e. while I was at the gate, no need for internet access. Does Ryanair do things differently?

These byzantine arguments and justifications and profit motivation and incentive tea readings are so ridiculous at a certain point, I'm surprised so many people wont even consider socializing airlines.

What a cold comfort to a grandma struggling to use an upsell-focused dark patterns app when the wifi is poor at some airport to get home to see her grandkids stuck at some airport to say, "Well, this maximized shareholder revenue."

I feel like I'm in the last stages of 'anything goes' capitalism. The ridiculousness here has hit such levels, especially in the USA, that there must be pushback sooner than later. I dunno how the Irish feel about this considering this is their airline (HQ at least), or their experiences, but on this side of the pond, this has all has reached new levels of absurdity that would make even Kafka blush.

>Contrary to what many replies are telling you, the link clearly states that if you don't own a smartphone, you can check in online and then obtain a boarding pass for free at the airport.

The press release says absolutely nothing of the sort.

Technically, the vast majority of users don't own their device. They are leasing it through their carrier. Then because it is HN, once the device is paid off, the user still doesn't own it as they cannot use it as they see fit and still must use it as the manufacturer sees fit. So this "own" word is potential for interpretation

I’m sorry, I am not seeing that at all at the link. I am surely missing something, but can you cut/paste what you are seeing on this point?

Thank you for FAXing this comment in :)

10 years ago I had to pay ryanair that amount for I didn't print the boarding pass. How the times have changed.

but you can print for free before heading to the airport

> If you have already checked-in online and your smartphone or tablet dies, you will receive a free of charge boarding pass at the airport.

> If passengers don’t have a smartphone or tablet, as long as they have already checked-in online before arriving at the airport, they will receive a free of charge boarding pass at the airport.

https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/lp/explore/digital-boarding-pa...

My wife used to laugh at me that I almost always print out a boarding pass. Until the day her phone died at the gate.

Usually they'll happily help you out with a "late boarding pass printing fee" on the order of a hundred €/$, though.

If this really is a total refusal to do even that, I'd be slightly surprised, but I'm sure their business developers have done the analysis and it makes some sense to them.

I’m surprised they can get away with it in the EU. T&C or not, you paid for a fare and they know you did

In Norway on Norwegian carriers all you need for internal travel is the credit card you booked the ticket with.

>For what it is worth, at least on iPhone you can still use the bus/train pass feature in Wallet even when the battery is dead.

AFAIK that only works for NFC passes? For passes that are just qr/bar codes I can't imagine how that'd work if the battery is actually dead. The "use bus passes when battery is dead" feature only works because there's dedicated low power circuitry to power the NFC hardware, which obviously doesn't exist for the display.

> For what it is worth, at least on iPhone you can still use the bus/train pass feature in Wallet even when the battery is dead.

Doesn't seem like it'll help in this case, seems Ryanair is forcing the usage to be via their app instead of anything else.

> charging people to use toilets on-board

AFAIK this has never happened.

This is a PR stunt that is regularly used (like the idea of standing-room-only tickets) to generate a new round of press for the company and highlight how cost-efficient and ruthless they are, which aligns with their branding and keeps the story alive.

I understand the sentiment but as sibling comment points out, you're very light in the way of stating facts to back up these claims.

>to flying with so little fuel that they regularly call fuel emergencies on approach.

If you're talking about the recent incident, I thought that was because they tried landing several times at different airports? Is there any evidence that they routinely fly with less fuel buffer than other airlines?

I mean it isn’t surprising people put up such abuse when I find that usually these discount airlines are half the ticket price of a major carrier for the same sort of flight. I’ve gotten remarkably good at efficiently packing my allotted small personal item bag.

It's ok to point out a flaw in my argument without calling me a liar.

I probably should have said 3x the scanning time, perhaps not total boarding time, I agree with that much.

That said, if the person blocking your seating arrived on the plane 20 minutes later because scanning took an extra 20 minutes, that still means you were delayed 20 minutes + person blocking you.

But I'd expect someone who flies from an airport smarter than everyone else in the US to have already factored that in.

1) Smartphone users have a constant, reliable, and fast connection to the internet.

2) People flying Ryanair always have a charged phone.

2a) Okay, but at least a powerbank.

And some Swissair agent denying knowledge about this new policy

Here in some European countries, like France, having a smartphone out in a restaurant is a sign of bad etiquette. It's not crucial, but from some people's perspective it might seem out of place. However, some restaurants tried QR code menus due to COVID-19, but most of them have since stopped using them.

I fully agree that having the latest version of a phone/OS should not be treated as a requirement for access to services, especially essential ones.

>. And of course, all of the crappy app developers insist that 1. I use a very recent phone and 2. I run the latest OS, or I'm shut out.

Signal did this when my wife's Macbook could no longer be updated to the latest Apple OS version. Signal just stopped working for her completely on her laptop. She couldn't install the latest version of Signal due to her not being on the latest OS, and Signal won't allow the old version to work once it's outdated. We had to buy her a whole new laptop (not Apple this time) to get her back on Signal (something she relies on).

Yes, I know about the hacky workarounds to get the latest OS working on a Macbook, but fuck that noise.

>More broadly, we need regulation where companies cannot make "ownership of the newest smartphone" a requirement to do business with them.

I'm not keen on mobile apps in general, but I don't see a need for regulation here. Companies want customers. It's not in their interest to needlessly harass people with pointless technology requirements that drive people to competitors. No company has ever required "the newest smartphone" for everyday tasks.

I don't support a general right to refuse adoption of any and all new technologies. What I do support is a mandate to use open technologies wherever possible for infrastructure that no one can reasonably avoid. What we can't allow is that people who lose some oligopolist account can no longer live a normal life.

> I have no problem with enabling smartphone-based payments and passes for people who like them, but companies should not be allowed to block out (or charge extra to) others who prefer not to tether themselves to a phone.

I agree with this. (The same would apply to restaurant menus.)

(In the case of restaurant menus, they could post a single copy near the entrance or somewhere that it can be seen by everyone in case they do not want to make multiple copies (and do not want to waste paper). E-paper displays might be used in case they sometimes change.)

Thanks, but I'm fine with printing my own boarding pass at home for free.

From my perspective, even a paid toilet (1) would be a better offering than this.

1. https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/Green/paying-pee-airlines-crit...

Not always a choice unless you want to spend the night at an airport and miss the thing you are flying in for.

And pay more than what you’d pay for ryanairs extortionate ticket printing service

Or use a different phone than apple's or google's, one that protect your privacy against airline companies stealing and resselling your data. The free market will... hem...

Haha all of them end up getting dragged down to Ryanair's level

Almost all short haul airlines in Europe more-or-less resemble the Ryanair model now

It's clearly explained in Ryanair's press release that this is not the case and the application is mandatory.

I'm fine with restrictions if they are reasonable/justified. I don't have an app store and I'm not planning to use one, and it's unclear to me why I'm unable to download and print a ticket when they can do the same for €50.

From a personal computer there are zero requirements, I don't need to have a special OS, or application, or anything. On the mobile application side, I must have one of two authorized app stores, an account there, and perhaps a specific OS version. This is something that I find unfair in this business practice.

What do we do if/when all other airlines copy Ryanair (again)?

They have a history of buying a lot of planes whenever there's a chance to get them cheaper. Typically, they sell planes for more than they cost to buy new.

For the 737 max at least, they built a simulator training facility in Dublin so they could train their pilots faster for when the max returned to flight.

I wouldn't take anything their CEO says at face value though. He's often saying provocative things just to get news coverage (cheaper and more effective than traditional advertising), and admits to that himself.

Ok but what you're describing is the classic "be cheaper than competition, gain market share, then raise prices" and is basically how business works. Almost every company does this if they are run well enough to manage to pull it off.

Setting up rules to trick customers to make mistakes and then demand 60 euros for printing a sheet of paper is morally dishonest and I would say most don't do this.

Didn't Uber get caught tracking their users (I want to say victims but there are actual victims of Uber sexual harassment/assault) even though they didn't have the app open?

Tracking where your passengers go on vacation would be useful data for them. Sheesh you could even track flights: "User was online at London Heathrow until 11:45, and was then offline, and came back online again in Madrid at 14:30, the corresponding flight at those times was EasyJet 78".

they say it is it's cause its greener but they could have used a website.

It's not rare that some staff are checking that passengers have all needed documents as they head to departures. Looks like they could check app usage there. They could also easily check the app when bags are checked in (that's Ryanair staff doing this).

In smaller airports (the ones Ryanair used to operate from) it's also sometimes their own barcode scanners before the gates that are dedicated to them.

I believe they will be able to enforce this in many places.

Unless it's a TOTP style code and changes

With Ryanair. Something to be avoided if at all possible, but a very bad precedent in any case.

Rather, enough people have smartphone that they won’t be object to using it as boarding pass.

And to install an app, which almost certainly has privacy invasion baked into the terms of use.

Wouldn't that be noticed when the actual passenger tried to board and the system said they were already on board?

They didn't verify the passenger's identity at the gate?

It has to be compatible with the physical scanners at the airport, e.g. before security. So Ryanair probably is not very flexible in how they design the code.

It's really remarkable how committed the EU is to selling out to Americans.

I just mean in general. If airplane companies normalize using an app then other companies may as well. Do you need a smartphone to pump gas? Or to use government services? How about to buy groceries? That sort of slippery slope is what I would be afraid of.

You think this mandated budget airline app is only going to track a gate check-in and nothing else? My guess is that it will collect an absurd amount of extra data and waste endless amounts of time with up-sells and other dark patterns.

"passengers will no longer be able to download and print a physical paper boarding pass"

Doesn't look like it will be possible. That's a deal breaker for me, I don't need another app spying on me on my phone.

The announcement says no downloads and required use of their app, but the dedicated help page says otherwise:

https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/lp/explore/digital-boarding-pa...

I'm averse to installing any apps. I don't want to use a smartphone, and I don't want companies or governments to mandate their usage. As a consumer you have no real way of knowing which apps are tracking you and selling your data and which are not. Every app is suspect, even if some are legitimately clean. Every single company that says "just use the app" is another roll of the dice: will they get breached and reveal my data? Are they tracking me and selling to advertisers / insurance companies / police? Consumers really have no way of knowing for sure.

Excessive surveillance.

Selling my location, list of the installed apps, cookies, whatever they can extract.

That's for starters.

But most importantly why the hell should I be forced to use phone app if having a printed pass was good enough?

I need to reverse your surprising question into: should I be expected to install, update, maintain and use apps of ALL the service providers I use?

Separate app for train provider A, another for train provider B, another for bus provider C.

No paper tickets.

An app to purchase groceries, another app to pay for the parking, another app to buy a coffee, another app to buy a newspaper in the kiosk. And app to check in the hotel, an app to order food in the restaurant, an app to call the tax return website (not the phone, an app).

Can you see now how absurd is to normalise it?

In addition to the great reasons others posted, I'll point out another one: Most airline apps won't even install or run on my device anymore. So, even if I wanted to use the airline's app (I don't), their developers have chosen to not support my device, and therefore I cannot even install or run it.

If a company is going to make something a requirement like this, they need to also invest in the effort to support everyone's device, and not block people with old, icky phones.

It's an unnecessary invasion of privacy for one, and not everyone has or wants a smartphone or to install third party apps, or carry it with them onto the plane. It could also be dead, broken or otherwise incompatible, or the passenger may have a disability or religious reason that prevents them from using it.

Think about the future ramifications if more companies were to implement this invasive garbage. Do you want to have to install mcdonalds app to order their food? Great clips app to get a hair cut?

I don't carry a smartphone.

They didn't necessarily have to know my main email address though! Or a list of the installed apps.

"Other Data" and "Identifiers" too? Don't remember seeing requests for those in any application.

The app still works /for now/.

What you are presenting is all opt-in.

Thank you for checking that. Last time I used it, I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't use android's screenshot prevention to stop you making a copy of the boarding pass. I took a screenshot as a backup in case I had issues with the app.

I'd probably pay the fee, take my flight, then charge it back with a reason like "Fee for not using app, app did not work. Fee advertised as optional was not, in fact, optional for me". Completely true statement.

^ This, and nothing else. There is a dark, evil underbelly to the data broker ecosystem that is largely powered by random apps people install on their phones.

TIL about App Pinning! It's also available in Android on Pixels.

Yep. I naively thought that no-one representing a company would ever do such a thing.

> Until all other short-haul airlines copy them

Like it or not, we live in a market economy with market competition. There are new airlines every year. In 2022 there was a net increase of 13 airlines in europe alone. If people want paper boarding passes, some competitor will give it to them. Always been like that in market economies, and socialists will keep fearmongering about "what one company does" like its the end of the world.