In case anyone else was confused: the link/quote in this comment are from the previous "async cancellation issue" write-up, which describes a situation where you "drop" a future: the code in the async function stops running, and all the destructors on its local variables are executed.

The new write-up from OP is that you can "forget" a future (or just hold onto it longer than you meant to), in which case the code in the async function stops running but the destructors are NOT executed.

Both of these behaviors are allowed by Rust's fairly narrow definition of "safety" (which allows memory leaks, deadlocks, infinite loops, and, obviously, logic bugs), but I can see why you'd be disappointed if you bought into the broader philosophy of Rust making it easier to write correct software. Even the Rust team themselves aren't immune -- see the "leakpocalypse" from before 1.0.

I guess one big question here is whether there's a higher layer abstraction that is available to wrap around patterns to avoid this.

It does feel like there's still generally possibilities of deadlocks in Rust concurrency right? I understand the feeling here that it feels like ... uhh... RAII-style _something_ should be preventing this, because it feels like statically we should be able to identify this issue in this simple case.

I still have a hard time understanding how much of this is incidental and how much of this is just downstream of the Rust/Tokio model not having enough to work on here.

> I wonder if there is a similar idea possible with tokio? E.g. if you are awaiting a Mutex held by a future that "can't run", then poll that future instead.

Something like this could make sense for Tokio tasks. (I don't know how complicated their task scheduler is; maybe it already does stuff like this?) But it's not possible for futures within a task, as in this post. This goes all the way back to the "futures are inert" design of async Rust: You don't necessarily need to communicate with the runtime at all to create a future or to poll it or to stop polling it. You only need to talk to the runtime at the task level, either to spawn new tasks, or to wake up your own task. Futures are pretty much just plain old structs, and Tokio doesn't know how many futures my async function creates internally, any more than it knows about my integers or strings or hash maps.

I thought Rust async is a colored stackless coroutine model and thus it would be unsafe to continue execution of previously executing async functions.

To explain, generally speaking, stackless coroutine async only need coloring because they are actually “independent stack”less coroutines. What they actually do is that they share the stack for their local state. This forces async function execution to proceed in LIFO order so you do not blow away the stack of the async function executing immediately after which demands state machine transforms to be safe. This is why you need coloring unlike stackful coroutine models which can execute, yield, and complete in arbitrary order since their local state is preserved in a safe location.

Off-topic but that code looks quite... complicated as opposed to what I would write in Erlang, Elixir, Go, or even C. Maybe it is just me.

My view of this is that its closer to the basic 2 lock Deadlock.

Thread 1 acquires A. Thread 2 acquires B. Thread 1 tries to acquire B. Thread 2 tries to acquire A.

In this case, the role "A" is being played by the front of the Mutex's lock queue. Role "B" is being played by the Tokio's actively executed task.

Based on this understanding, I agree that the surprising behavior is due to Tokio's Mutex/Lock Queue implementation. If this was an OS Mutex, and a thread waiting for the Mutex can't wake for some reason, the OS can wake a different thread waiting for that Mutex. I think the difficulty in this approach has to do with how Rust's async is implemented. My guess is the algorithm for releasing a lock goes something like this:

1. Pop the head of the wait queue. 2. Poll the top level tokio::spawn'ed task of the Future that is holding the Mutex.

What you want is something like this

For each Future in the wait queue (Front to Back): Poll the Future. If Success - Break ???Something if everything fails???

The reason this doesn't work has to do with how futures compose. Futures compile to states within a state machine. What happens when a future polled within the wait queue completes? How is control flow handed back to the caller?

I guess you might be able to have some fallback that polls the futures independently then polls the top level future to try and get things unstuck. But this could cause confusing behavior where futures are being polled even though no code path within your code is await'ing them. Maybe this is better though?

Indeed, you are correct (and hi Matthias!). After we got to the bottom of this deadlock, my coworkers and I had one of our characteristic "how could we have prevented this?" conversations, and reached the somewhat sad conclusion that actually, there was basically nothing we could easily blame for this. All the Tokio primitives involved were working precisely as they were supposed to. The only thing that would have prevented this without completely re-designing Rust's async from the ground up would be to ban the use of `&mut future`s in `select!`...but that eliminates a lot of correct code, too. Not being able to do that would make it pretty hard to express a lot of things that many applications might reasonably want to express, as you described. I discussed this a bit in this comment[1] as well.

On the other hand, it also wasn't our coworker who had written the code where we found the bug who was to blame, either. It wasn't a case of sloppy programming; he had done everything correctly and put the pieces together the way you were supposed to. All the pieces worked as they were supposed to, and his code seemed to be using them correctly, but the interaction of these pieces resulted in a deadlock that it would have been very difficult for him to anticipate.

So, our conclusion was, wow, this just kind of sucks. Not an indictment of async Rust as a whole, but an unfortunate emergent behavior arising from an interaction of individually well-designed pieces. Just something you gotta watch out for, I guess. And that's pretty sad to have to admit.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45776868

> However you also wouldn’t be able run use select! in a while loop and try to acquire the same lock (or read from the same channel) without losing your position in the queue.

No, just have select!() on a bunch of owned Futures return the futures that weren't selected instead of dropping them. Then you don't lose state. Yes, this is awkward, but it's the only logically coherent way. There is probably some macro voodoo that makes it ergonomic. But even this doesn't fix the root cause because dropping an owned Future isn't guaranteed to cancel it cleanly.

For the real root cause: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45777234

Not a Rust designer, but a big motivation for Rust's async design was wanting it to work on embedded, meaning no malloc and no threads. This unfortunately precludes the vast majority of the design space here, from active futures as seen in JS/C#/Go to the actor model.

You can write code using the actor model with Tokio. But it's not natural to do so.

_an answer_ is performance - the necessity of creating copyable/copied messages for inter-actor communication everywhere in the program _can be_ expensive.

that said there are a lot of parts of a lot of programs where a fully inlined and shake optimized async state machine isn't so critical.

it's reasonable to want a mix, to use async which can be heavily compiler optimized for performance sensitive paths, and use higher level abstractions like actors, channels, single threaded tasks, etc for less sensitive areas.

Your application needs concurrency. So, the answer is... switch your entire application, code style, and libraries it uses into a separate domain that is borderline incompatible with normal one? And has its own dialects that have their own compatibility barriers? Doesn't make sense to me.

I'd recommend watching this video: https://www.infoq.com/presentations/rust-2019/; and reading this: https://tokio.rs/blog/2020-04-preemption

I'm not the right person to write a tl;dr, but here goes.

For actors, you're basically talking about green threads. Rust had a hard constraint that calls to C not have overhead and so green threads were out. C is going to expect an actual stack so you have to basically spin up a real stack from your green-thread stack, call the C function, then translate it back. I think Erlang also does some magic where it will move things to a separate thread pool so that the C FFI can block without blocking the rest of your Erlang actors.

Generally, async/await has lower overhead because it gets compiled down to a state machine and event loop. Languages like Go and Erlang are great, but Rust is a systems programming language looking for zero cost abstractions rather than just "it's fast."

To some extent, you can trade overhead for ease. Garbage collectors are easy, but they come with overhead compared to Rust's borrow checker method or malloc/free.

To an extent it's about tradeoffs and what you're trying to make. Erlang and Go were trying to build something different where different tradeoffs made sense.

EDIT: I'd also note that before Go introduced preemption, it too would have "pitfalls". If a goroutine didn't trigger a stack reallocation (like function calls that would make it grow the stack) or do something that would yield (like blocking IO), it could starve other goroutines. Now Go does preemption checks so that the scheduler can interrupt hot loops. I think Erlang works somewhat similarly to Rust in scheduling in that its actors have a certain budget, every function call decrements their budget, and when they run of of budget they have to yield back to the scheduler.

I'm surprised learning this too. I know the hobby embedded, and HTTP-server OSS ecosystem have committed to Async, but I didn't expect Oxide would.

> This seems like a contradiction to me. How can future1 acquire the Mutex in the first place, if it cannot run? The word "given" is really odd to me.

`future1` did run for a bit, and it got far enough to acquire the mutex. (As the article mentioned, technically it took a position in a queue that means it will get the mutex, but that's morally the same thing here.) Then it was "paused". I put "paused" in scare quotes because it kind of makes futures sound like processes or threads, which have a "life of their own" until/unless something "interrupts" them, but an important part of this story is that Rust futures aren't really like that. When you get down to the details, they're more like a struct or a class that just sits there being data unless you call certain methods on it (repeatedly). That's what the `.await` keyword does for you, but when you use more interesting constructs like `select!`, you start to get more of the details in your face.

It's hard to be more concrete than that without getting into an overwhelming amount of detail. I wrote a set of blog posts that try to cover it without hand-waving the details away, but they're not short, and they do require some Rust background: https://jacko.io/async_intro.html

Indeed. One of the interesting side effects of being a remote company that records everything[0] is that we have the instant where the "1000 piece puzzle just clicks together" recorded, and it's honestly pretty wild. In this case, it was very much a shared brainstorming between four engineers (Eliza, Sean, John and Dave) -- and there is almost a passing of the baton where they start to imagine the kind of scenario that could induce this and then realize that those are exactly the conditions that exist in the software.

We are (on brand?) going to do a podcast episode on this on Monday[1]; ahead of that conversation I'm going to get a clip of that video out, just because it's interesting to see the team work together to debug it.

[0] https://rfd.shared.oxide.computer/rfd/0537

[1] https://discord.gg/QrcKGTTPrF?event=1433923627988029462

There's an existing lint that lets you prohibit instances of specific types from being held across await points: https://rust-lang.github.io/rust-clippy/stable/index.html#aw...

Note that forcing a drop of a lock guard has its own issues, particularly around leaving the guarded data in an invalid state. I cover this a bit in my talk that Bryan linked to in the OP [1].

[1] timestamped: https://youtu.be/zrv5Cy1R7r4?t=1067

I’m not convinced that this can help in a meaningful way.

Fundamentally, if you have two coroutines (or cooperatively scheduled threads or whatever), and one of them holds a lock, and the other one is awaiting the lock, and you don’t schedule the first one, you’re stuck.

I wonder if there’s a form of structured concurrency that would help. If I create two futures and start both of them (in Rust this means polling each one once) but do not continue to poll both, then I’m sort of making a mistake.

So imagine a world where, to poll a future at all, I need to have a nursery, and the nursery is passed in from my task and down the call stack. When I create a future, I can pass in my nursery, but that future then gets an exclusive reference to my future until it’s complete or cancelled. If I want to create more than one future that are live concurrently, I need to create a FutureGroup (that gets an exclusive reference to my nursery) and that allows me to create multiple sub-nurseries that can be used to make futures but cannot be used to poll them — instead I poll the FutureGroup.

(I have yet to try using an async/await system or a reactor or anything of the sort that is not very easy to screw up. My current pet peeve is this pattern:

    data = await thingy.read()

The ideas that have been batted around is called "async drop" [1]

And it looks like it's still just an unaddressed well known problem [2].

Honestly, once the Mozilla sackening of rust devs happened it seems like the language has been practically rudderless. The RFC system seems almost dead as a lot of the main contributors are no longer working on rust.

This initiative hasn't had motion since 2021. [3]

[1] https://rust-lang.github.io/async-fundamentals-initiative/ro...

[2] https://rust-lang.github.io/async-fundamentals-initiative/

[3] https://github.com/rust-lang/async-fundamentals-initiative

It's hard to answer the question because of unclear terminology (tasks vs. futures). There are ways to do structured concurrency in Rust, but they are for tasks, not futures. There's not really a concept of "active futures" (other than calling an "active future" one that returned Pending the last time you polled it).

A task is the thing that drives progress by polling some futures. But one of those futures may want to handle polling for other futures that it made, which is where this arises.

As the article says, one option is to spawn everything as a task, but that doesn't solve all problems, and precludes some useful ways of using futures.

So there's a distinction between a task and a future. A future doesn't do anything until it's polled, and since there's nothing special about async runtimes (it's just user level code), it's always possible to create futures and never poll them, or stop polling them.

A task is a different construct and usually tied to the runtime. If you look at the suggestions in the RFD they call out using a task explicitly instead of polling a future in place.

There's some debate to be had over what constitutes "cancellation." The article and most colloquial definitions I've heard define it as a future being dropped before being polled to completion. Which is very clean - if you want to cancel a future, just drop it. Since Rust strongly encourages RAII, cleanup can go in drop implementations.

A much tougher definition of cancellation is "the future is never polled again" which is what the article hits on. The future isn't dropped but its poll is also unreachable, hence the deadlock.

What could `tokio::select!` do differently here to prevent bugs like this?

In the case of `select!`, it is a direct consequence of the ability to poll a `&mut` reference to a future in a `select!` arm, where the future is not dropped should another future win the "race" of the select. This is not really a choice Tokio made when designing `select!`, but is instead due to the existence of implementations of `Future` for `&mut T: Future + Unpin`[1] and `Pin<T: Future>`[2] in the standard library.

Tokio's `select!` macro cannot easily stop the user from doing this, and, furthermore, the fact that you can do this is useful --- there are many legitimate reasons you might want to continue polling a future if another branch of the select completes first. It's desirable to be able to express the idea that we want to continually poll drive one asynchronous operation to completion while periodically checking if some other thing has happened and taking action based on that, and then continue driving forward the ongoing operation. That was precisely what the code in which we found the bug was doing, and it is a pretty reasonable thing to want to do; a version of the `select!` macro which disallows that would limit its usefulness. The issue arises specifically from the fact that the `&mut future` has been polled to a state in which it has acquired, but not released, a shared lock or lock-like resource, and then another arm of the `select!` completes first and the body of that branch runs async code that also awaits that shared resource.

If you can think of an API change which Tokio could make that would solve this problem, I'd love to hear it. But, having spent some time trying to think of one myself, I'm not sure how it would be done without limiting the ability to express code that one might reasonably want to be able to write, and without making fundamental changes to the design of Rust async as a whole.

[1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/future/trait.Future.htm... [2]: https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/future/trait.Future.htm...

There's nothing `select!` could do here to force `future1` to drop, because it doesn't receive ownership of `future1`. If we wanted to force this, we'd have to forbid `select!` from polling futures by reference, but that's a pretty fundamental capability that we often rely on to `select!` in a loop for example. The blanket `impl<F> Future for &mut F where F: Future ...` isn't a Tokio thing either; that's in the standard library.

(author here)

Although the design of the `tokio::select!` macro creates ways to run into this behavior, I don't believe the problem is specific to `tokio`. Why wouldn't the example from the post using Streams happen with any other executor?

i forget if this part unwinds to the exact same place, but some of this kind of design constraint in tokio stems from the much earlier language capabilities and is prohibitive to adjust without breaking the user ecosystem.

one of the key advertised selling points in some of the other runtimes was specifically around behavior of tasks on drop of their join handles for example, for reasons closely related to this post.

I can’t say whether it was rushed out, but it’s clearly not everything it was advertised to be. Early on, the big talking point was that the async implementation was so modular you could swap runtimes like Lego bricks. In reality, that’s nowhere near true. Changing runtimes means changing every I/O dependency (mutexes, networking, fs), because everything is tightly coupled to the runtime. I raised this in a Reddit thread some time ago, and the feedback there reinforced that I'm not the only one with a sour Rust async taste in my mouth. https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1f4z84r/is_it_fair_to...

There's a lot of improvements I could think of for async Rust, but there's basically nothing I would change about the fundamentals that underlie it (other than some tweaks to Pin, maybe, and I could quibble over some syntax). There's nothing rushed about it; it's a great foundation that demonstrably just needs someone to finish building the house on top of it (and, to continue the analogy, needs someone to finish building the sub-basement (cough, generalized coroutines)).

Async code isn't supposed to be simpler than sync code, it's supposed to be simpler than doing thing like continuation passing.

Async code is simpler because you're implicitly holding a lock on the CPU. That's also why you should stay away from it: it increases latency. Especially since Rust is about speed and responsiveness. In general, async programming in Rust makes little sense.

I think the thing that rubs me the wrong way is that Rust was supposed to be "fearless" concurrency. Go doesn't claim that title so I'm not offended when it doesn't live up to it.

Difference in Go is that you've _expressly_ constructed a dependency ring. Should Go or any runtime go out of it's way to detect a dependency ring?

This the programming equivalent of using welding (locks) to make a chain loop, you've just done it with the 3D space impossible two links case.

As with the sin of .await(no deadline), the sin here is not adding a deadline.

Yeah but Go makes it abvious why it is deadlocking because the async primitives are more explicit. Even a dumb LLM could have told us where the problem is (I tested).

Menawhile in Rust it looks like it took thousands of dollars in engineering time to find the issue.

I wrote a version of the article's code in Java and couldn't figure out why it was working until reading your example. I see now that the channel operations in Go must rendezvous which I assume matches Rust's Future behavior. Whereas, the Java CompletableFuture operations I was using to mimic the select aren't required to meet. Thanks for writing this.

JS shouldn't have a direct equivalent because JS async functions are eager. Once you call an async function, it will keep running even if the caller doesn't await it, or stops awaiting it. So in the scenario described, the function next in line for the lock would always have a chance to acquire and release it. The problem in Rust is that async functions are lazy and only run while they're being polled/awaited (unless wrapped in tasks). A function that's next in line for the lock might never acquire it if it's not being polled, blocking progress for other functions that are being polled.

yes, you can produce similar issues with promise guarded states and so on as well, it's a fairly common issue in async programming, but can be surprising when it's hidden by layers of abstraction / far up/down a call-chain.

I genuinely don't understand why people use select! at all given how much of a footgun it is.

No, dropping a Rust future is an inherently safe operation. Futures don't live on their own, they only ever do work inside of .poll(), so you can't "catch them with their pants down" and corrupt state by dropping them. Yield points are specifically designed to be cancel-safe.

Crucially, however, because Futures have no independent existence, they can be indefinitely paused if you don't actively and repeatedly .poll() them, which is the moral equivalent of cancelling a Java Thread. And this is represented in language state as a leaked object, which is explicitly allowed in safe Rust, although the language still takes pains to avoid accidental leakage. The only correct way to use a future is to poll it to completion or drop it.

The problem is that in this situation, tokio::select! only borrows the future and thus can't drop it. It also doesn't know that dropping the Future does nothing, because borrows of futures are still futures so all the traits still match up. It's a combination of slightly unintuitive core language design and a major infrastructure library not thinking things out.

If you prefer "real" names you can always look at the actual code that had a bug - here it is before the bug was fixed: https://github.com/oxidecomputer/omicron/blob/a253f541a4a32a...

Is it possible that those names are intentionally chosen and actually do carry meaning?

I think the next sentence clarifies pretty well.

> In this case, what’s dropped is &mut future1. But future1 is not dropped, so the actual future is not cancelled.

The author clearly understands these details. I think it's just a question of wording: did we "drop a reference (which has no effect)" or did we "not drop anything (because references don't implement Drop)"?

> I always said if your code locks or use atomics, it's wrong. Everyone says I'm wrong but you get things like what's described in the article.

Ok so say you are simulating high energy photons (x-rays) flowing through a 3d patient volume. You need to simulate 2 billion particles propagating through the patient in order to get an accurate estimation of how the radiation is distributed. How do you accomplish this without locks or atomics without the simulation taking 100 hours to run? Obviously it would take forever to simulate 1 particle at a time, but without locks or atomics the particles will step on each others' toes when updating radiation distribution in the patient. I suppose you could have 2 billion copies of the patient's volume in memory and each particle gets its own private copy and then you merge them all at the end...

> I always said if your code locks or use atomics, it's wrong.

Why atomics?

To clarify by "your code" I mean your code excluding a library. A good library would make it impossible to deadlock. When I wrote mine I never called outside code during a lock so it was impossible for it to deadlock. My atomic code had auditing and test. I don't recommend people to write their own thread library unless they want to put a lot of work into it