kibwen
4 hours ago
> The Flexibility of Renting Is Undervalued
And the stability of buying is undervalued. It's telling that this article frames housing as an investment vehicle rather than as a basic necessity. And it's not just a necessity because it shelters you from the elements and gives you storage for your stuff; it anchors you in a neighborhood and allows you to begin forming a local community. The flexibility of renting that this article glorifies is itself anathema to knowing and befriending your neighbors on anything but the shortest of terms; even if you don't intend to move, you have no guarantee that they won't up and exercise that flexibility. This is a major contributor to the modern loneliness epidemic.
wavemode
4 hours ago
I don't know many homeowners who formed "local communities" with their neighbors. I know a few, but not many. And I know renters who know all their neighbors well. Seems more like a personality trait than something enabled by owning where you live.
Aeolun
2 hours ago
I don’t know. The effect of many families with young children all going and buying a house at roughly the same time is absolutely a thing. My street was filled with children when I was young (newly built neighborhood), and the same thing is true again now that I’ve bought a house. The street is filled with parents and children at roughly the same place in life. It’s nice when the only thing you need to do to find playmates is make noise in the street.
baubino
an hour ago
Much of this is location dependent. I’ve rented (and owned) in neighborhoods with really strong communities where everybody knew each other; and I’ve rented in neighborhoods where no one knew each other and people got suspicious if you tried to talk to them.
bdangubic
3 hours ago
100% this - it is exception, small exception that communities can be formed with neighbours. take home-owners associations into the equation and there is higher likelyhood you’ll punch someone than have a beer with them
PlanksVariable
2 hours ago
0% this - neighborhoods with single family homes are more likely to have families, and kids often create friendships that carry over to parent friendships. And if anybody in the neighborhood takes the initiative to plan block parties, dinner parties, etc., that really helps a community take root.
This just doesn't happen as often with apartments, where people are more transient and more likely to be single and/or childless.
oblio
2 hours ago
Only in places with non family friendly apartments.
80% of Eastern Europe, for example, would disagree with you.
bdangubic
an hour ago
I am strictly talking about USA and I believe this entire thread is. I am originally from Eastern Europe, grew up in a 12-story building and can still recipe names of pretty much everyone that lived in the building when I left in 1992. Not only in that building but also a 10-story adjecent building :)
baubino
an hour ago
This really just depends on the city. These kinds of generalizations just don’t hold for different cities with different cultures of community. I, for one, spent my entire childhood living in apartments, as did everyone I knew (and probably almost everyone does in large cities) and now am raising my own family in an apartment in a neighborhood with lots of other families. This kind of living is the norm in many places.
mnky9800n
2 hours ago
My building has a building association and we have meetings and also group events. When we were robbed our neighbours were there to help us. I definitely feel part of my community in my building. I think partly it is Dutch culture. I didn’t feel welcome at all by my neighbours in Norway in any of the neighbourhoods I lived in. I don’t think it’s just a personality thing.
moduspol
3 hours ago
Having kids (and being in a neighborhood with kids) also helps a lot.
bdangubic
3 hours ago
I owned for the last 25 years (3 houses, 8, 8 and 9 years) and am very social person. I do not have a single neighbour friend in all these years. what you are describing is (in vast majority of cases especially in urban areas) just wishful thinking.
litoE
2 hours ago
This was also our experience while owning three homes in single-family neighborhoods over a 35-year period. We knew our neighbors enough to say "hello", but that was it, and we never associated with them. However, 13 years ago we bought an apartment in a large high-rise condominium building. To our surprise - because that was not a consideration when we moved - we have made many good friends among our neighbors. We go out to dinner together, we invite each other to our homes and to family celebrations. The downside is an aspect of communal living. For example, we needed a new carpet in the building's lobby, so all the owners voted on the color. The majority chose green and we hate green, but we have to live with it.
com2kid
2 hours ago
Counterpoint in Seattle - We talk to our neighbors regularly and are good friends with a few. Having kids helps.
bdangubic
2 hours ago
No doubt there are many counter-points. My Godfather lives 4 miles from me and lives in a community where 3-4 of his neighbours have his house keys, take care of each other’s kids, dogs when out of town… I just don’t think - in general - that there is a statistically significant correlation between home ownership and living in a community like OP and you are describing
hudon
3 hours ago
yes, because he forgot about the car. The reason we don’t befriend our neighbors is because as soon as we leave our home, we put ourselves in a metal cage, ensuring no one will talk to us if we don’t want them to.
Befriending your neighbors kind of works in a city but only REALLY works in Amish communities.
phillygta
3 hours ago
[dead]
pedalpete
4 hours ago
As a renter who has recently been given notice that I must vacate my apartment in 90 days, you'd think I'd agree with you.
However, I think this depends highly on the personality of the renter/owner, and that is the point this article misses.
If someone is, like myself, comfortable with risks, I'm ok with changing neighbors, locations, and I've lived on 3 different continents and 9 cities?
If you're someone who craves stability, then this isn't for you, and you're proably better off buying a house.
AfterHIA
3 hours ago
I live in a traditional middle class neighborhood and half the houses are rentals for college kids and people who can't buy. I'm not sure who to agree with here.
filoleg
4 hours ago
> the stability of buying
It depends.
Personally, after witnessing both sides of the coin second-hand, I am not leaning in the direction of either buying or renting in absolute. It is highly dependent on the context and circumstances of a specific situation/market.
I am aware that this is just an anecdote (i.e., it isn't going to say much about the overall state of things across all states in the US), but there is a specific example I'd witnessed myself, which led me to believe that this is a bit more complicated than just "renting is the move" and "buying is the move."
TLDR: one of my former coworkers bought a condo in Queen Anne neighborhood of Seattle (which is a highly desirable and expensive neighborhood in that metro area). Within the first year of his ownership, the pipes behind his laundry machine burst due to no fault of his own (while he was at work), and it ended up flooding the apartment of the neighbor below. It decimated the flooring of both his own unit and the unit of the neighbor below. He ended up was facing the costs of unfucking his own condo AND the unit below.
I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head at all (as the whole thing happened around 2018-2019, and I wasn't really involved in any direct way at all), but I remember that he did the math and (based upon the numbers, reasonably) ended up selling his condo as soon as he'd finished fixing his own unit + paying for the fixes to the unit below.
Meanwhile, I am currently renting, and if the pipes in my unit burst and end up flooding the neighbors below, it would be mostly the problem of the property management company running my building to deal with, not mine. This alone make me feel way more stable than if I'd owned the unit I live in atm.
mauvehaus
2 hours ago
If you're renting, getting the landlord to deal with an acute issue is pretty clear cut. They usually get it done. It's the slow burn neglect shit that's almost impossible to get fixed.
Anecdote of my own: The last place we rented before buying had a minor roof leak. Minor, but still a roof leak. The landlord was old, her daughter was responsible for a lot of stuff, and they were both remote for at least part of the year. It took 3 years for them to finally get the roof replaced, evidently about a year after we left.
And these were good landlords. They took care of a bunch of minor disasters in good time: dishwasher, washing machine, thermostats for the baseboard electric heat, stack vent got clobbered by ice coming off the roof? All dealt with promptly. But the roof, important though it was, wasn't a big enough problem to merit quick attention. The place was a log home, and by appearances, hadn't been subjected to any kind of refinishing for a good while too.
filoleg
an hour ago
> It's the slow burn neglect shit that's almost impossible to get fixed.
There are definitely tons of pros that come from renting from small/individual landlords (e.g., potentially tiny/non-existent monthly rental cost increases over the years; I have an acquaintance who managed to keep the same lease price [which was already extremely low for the neighborhood] for about 3 years now in LES neighborhood of Manhattan).
However, what you described is precisely one of my biggest personal concerns, hence why I tend to stick with larger/property-management-company-run properties+buildings that are, in general, newer. I discovered that it is much easier to get property management companies to get things like that done. In fact, after some of my current neighbors complained enough about elevator outages over the past month (for context: the building is 30 floors tall and has 3 elevators, but we recently had multiple weeks where only one elevator was functional, which led to large elevator lines and slow service), everyone automatically got a $500 credit applied to their next rent payment.
tehwebguy
4 hours ago
Buying a condo is half buying and half renting.
david-gpu
4 hours ago
As an approximation, condo fees make explicit a number of recurring costs that are only implicit when you own. E.g. heating/cooling, maintenance, landscaping, accumulating an emergency fund, etc. Thus, if a condo is half-renting, so is buying a house.
__turbobrew__
4 hours ago
My condo owning friend got a special assessment of $40k to replace the siding.
There are A LOT of costs which are not explicit when owning a condo.
david-gpu
3 hours ago
Some condo corporations are poorly managed and lack sufficient emergency funds, or proper maintenance, and thus resort to special assessments that are not funded in advance. The same is true of many homeowners.
__turbobrew__
3 hours ago
As a homeowner, that is 100% in your control whereas with a condo it isn’t. I have seen so many times in the local news about condos who are underwater because the board decided to not proactively save and fix things which was a democratic decision made by the board.
Honestly I have such low trust in the ability for humans to plan for the future over the now. It is like a bug in our psychology.
ghaff
3 hours ago
>As a homeowner, that is 100% in your control whereas with a condo it isn’t.
As a homeowner I have definitely had some 5 figure costs over the years that were totally unexpected and several in the low 5 figure range that really needed to be done. Doesn't mean I couldn't cover them in some way shape or form but they happened.
bombcar
4 hours ago
A condo somehow combines the worst aspects of buying and renting.
devonkim
4 hours ago
That would be an HOA moreso than the features of a condo, although a condo tends to imply an HOA in the US. The irony of my experiences with an HOA is that its actions tended to suppress my property value rather than preserve or grow it.
tomjakubowski
3 hours ago
I don't know how a condo building could operate without some kind of shared ownership structure for the common areas and shared infrastructure. What are the alternatives to an HOA in a condo building?
bombcar
2 hours ago
actual laws about such things, I presume.
hoas only make sense to me in condo situations - but even then you’re at the mercy of others
simianwords
an hour ago
As a non american I have no idea what a "condo" is. Is it like an apartment? Or a big house?
jbarham
an hour ago
Condo means an apartment that you own (vs rent).
simianwords
an hour ago
Interesting.. I would never think Condo described the financial relation you had with the house but not some intrinsic quality of the house itself.
subarctic
2 hours ago
I'd argue it's not undervalued, lots of people are aware of this benefit and that's why so many people want to own their own home despite renting being the better financial option on paper. It's strange the article doesn't mention it though.
davewritescode
2 hours ago
I don’t think renting or buying makes a difference in communities. I had a much better relationship with my neighbors when I rented vs now where I own my own home.
I chalk up the difference to the fact that a lot of people my age couldn’t afford to live where I moved so my neighborhood is full of wealthier older people who I have nothing in common with.
firecall
4 hours ago
Absolutely agree with this!
We need, as a society, to bring back generational communities.
Our workplaces are not our families!
I'll also add, that once you have children, owning your home is a very welcome level of stability.
Nothing worse than looking for a new rental and potentially being forced to upend all your routines and find new schools for the kids as you cant rent in the same area anymore!
cyanmagenta
3 hours ago
> once you have children, owning your home is a very welcome level of stability
I think this is the biggest factor if it applies. If we want to be utilitarian about it, the benefit to your kids of having the same school to attend, same neighbors to play with, same room to call their own and paint the walls as they desire, etc. just dwarfs everything else. Kids just do well in stable, predictable home environments.
bdangubic
3 hours ago
I know three families that owned and had to move cause they could not afford to live in the house they own (gerrimandering- related…)
owning does not shield you from shit like that, maybe in rural america but definitely not in/around the cities
9x39
3 hours ago
Almost everyone I know has a significant portion of their wealth in home equity. The renters I know tend to have much lower wealth. This is reflected broadly in the US wealth distribution.
You brought up a good point though, and that’s the trap of being house poor. Too many owners fail to look / have not been taught to factor local property taxes and maintenance costs into their homes. My network definitely has people caught unaware by escrow shortages, siding costs, roof costs, HVAC stack costs.
Despite it all, US homeowners seem to edge out renters, but it doesn’t have to be causative, either.
https://www.aspeninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/AS...
bluefirebrand
2 hours ago
It is way better to be house poor than to be a renter, because at least the house is generally an appreciating asset
bdangubic
2 hours ago
this is a fantasy people have bought in the last X years because government has done everything imaginable to get people to own homes.
Aeolun
2 hours ago
It would help if they didn’t buy a home that required them to sustain the same level of income indefinitely? I certainly didn’t buy the largest I could afford.