andrewflnr
5 months ago
The linked paper is open access: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-journa...
Among other things, it contains details on what amphiphiles might actually be present on Titan, a very nice set of diagrams explaining their proposed process, and proposals for lab experiments to verify whether the process is possible. I've had a soft spot for the vesicle-first theory of abiogenesis since I first heard of it, so I hope someone runs the experiments. But as far as I can tell, this is all theoretical so far.
rolph
5 months ago
amphiphillic vesicles are a stepping stone for persistent molecular forms. essentially a reaction vessel, insulating the contents from the extravesicular mayhem.
jojobas
5 months ago
It's thought that life on Earth started with RNA mayhem, not with vessels to isolate from it.
andrewflnr
5 months ago
RNA world is mainstream, but a few scientists have proposed that something like cell membranes, such as these vesicles, came first and provided the environment for more complex chemistry.
evrimoztamur
5 months ago
Life exists at the boundaries of density changes.
It makes absolutely no sense that the code would precede the hardware, and the hardware needs shielding.
StopDisinfo910
5 months ago
It doesn’t have to make sense.
It’s all a case of dynamic equilibrium in complex systems and emergence. Finality doesn’t really come into it.
bongodongobob
5 months ago
I think the idea is that if you have a nice bubbly froth and some proteins/RNA type thing end up inside and help reinforce the bubble wall through electrostatic forces you get a symbiotic relationship. The soup inside reinforces the bubbles around it.
dsign
5 months ago
And everything that we hold dear happens after that.
I don't object to this explanation of the world, but I reckon it's an uphill battle convincing people that all of the living natural world, and all of human history, their culture, their religions and their science and all the beliefs in-between had their origin in some electrostatic forces. I'm of the opinion that even well-informed people of science haven't had time to fully adjust their world-view during the handful of decades we have known this much.
igleria
5 months ago
Dunno about everyone else, but if that is the origin of everything that lives on this planet, I'd find relief. One less question in an ever increasing sea of questions is better than just an ever increasing sea of questions.
codesnik
5 months ago
but actual code preceded the hardware!
anonzzzies
5 months ago
indeed, people like Dijkstra wrote quire a bit of code on paper before the hardware to run that code existed.
Gravityloss
5 months ago
Well, there existed ware, the code ran on wetware
rollcat
5 months ago
This. Ada Lovelace wrote programs for Babbage's analytical engine long before anyone succeeded at constructing one.
andrewflnr
5 months ago
In defense of RNA: you know about ribozymes, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribozyme Life does not really respect a code/hardware divide.
oh_fiddlesticks
5 months ago
The source code of life is recorded and transmitted using physical matter.
Physics very much matters to matter.
For development of any information storage systems made of molecules, there must be a supportive development environment.
To even start the process of doing anything like what we see happening in a cell, homeostasis must be achieved first, and not inelegantly, its not good enough to have a complete cell wall if it has no ports for entry and exit of nutrients and waste product, thats also known as a coffin.
Both the walls and the gates and the information / physical systems to reliably exploit those features must be present at the same time to enable abiogenesis.
SJC_Hacker
5 months ago
Not necessarily. The primitive cell wall could have used other mechanisms. For example simple protrusion of the membrane does not have to resulr in catastrophic collapse, if done slowly enough membrane allows substances to enter and exit and still remain intact by closing up quickly after wall is broken
If you play around with soap bubbles carefully you can observe phenomena like this.
AllegedAlec
5 months ago
Congratulations. Now go and read the literature and learn how this might've occurred. You're not the first person to raise these objections. Biologists aren't morons.
user
5 months ago
oh_fiddlesticks
5 months ago
Having read a fair amount of the literature, it's not that compelling.
I would encourage people to stake their life on it, let's put it that way.
tomrod
5 months ago
I see where you're coming from, but I think you're thinking across too far over the boundary. Quantum mechanics aren't ordinarily affected by non-sentient life, they're just primitive to the environment at the macro level.
root_axis
5 months ago
Quantum mechanics has no relationship to sentience.
parineum
5 months ago
That's a pretty strong statement considering both facts that quantum mechanics affects everything and sentience is not understood.
root_axis
5 months ago
Quantum mechanics is a well defined theory and sentience, however you define it, has nothing to do with it. Your reasoning is akin to saying "gravity affects everything so you can't rule out it has some connection to sentience". It's a meaningless statement.
parineum
5 months ago
It's not meaningless, it's just overly broad to the point of uselessness.
You may as well be saying that reality has nothing to do with consciousness which is obviously untrue unless you're implying some kind of metaphysics.
jojobas
5 months ago
Apparently figuring out if a neuron fires or not involves quantum coin tossing.
tomrod
5 months ago
Correct. My apologies that my comment was unclear such that from my comment's content one could not distinguish particle accelerators built by sentient life and woo-woo New Age claims of "The Secret" or manifesting.
fooker
5 months ago
Funny that code did predate hardware.
cmrx64
5 months ago
transmembrane proteins are complex hardware of their own…
kjkjadksj
5 months ago
Part of what makes RNA world so compelling is the RNA is both code and hardware. Yes, central dogma is not the end all be all. RNA structures can be catalytic just like enzymes.
IAmBroom
5 months ago
There are a lot of different opinions on how life on Earth started, even amongst scientists studying it, and none of them are strongly supported by substantial, reproduced evidence.
griffzhowl
5 months ago
> It's thought that life on Earth started with RNA mayhem, not with vessels to isolate from it.
They're not mutually exclusive. You could have various kinds of autocatalytic sets of molecules, including RNA, inside and outside lipid vesicles, and some of them might have re-produced better than others. Anything that could have happened in an open ocean of nuleotides and amino acids could also take place within a lipid vesicle, just that within some vesicle maybe the right concentrations of molecules had at some point emerged that could more easily reproduce itself than in the open ocean where the particular autocatalytic set could be washed away by the surrounding molecular chaos.