NASA finds Titan's lakes may be creating vesicles with primitive cell walls

227 pointsposted 16 hours ago
by Gaishan

69 Comments

alessandru

a minute ago

if we can't show these vesicles advancing further in the lab setting, what is the point of speculating that they could be occurring on titan? couldn't they also be occurring on venus or other places where complex chemicals are warm enough? maybe the clouds of jupiter also. maybe some melting ice on mars. let's speculate some more and write more papers about speculations, then we'll label "NASA" and then these speculations will become ever more popular so all the normies can talk about random biological bs aliens.

andrewflnr

15 hours ago

The linked paper is open access: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-journa...

Among other things, it contains details on what amphiphiles might actually be present on Titan, a very nice set of diagrams explaining their proposed process, and proposals for lab experiments to verify whether the process is possible. I've had a soft spot for the vesicle-first theory of abiogenesis since I first heard of it, so I hope someone runs the experiments. But as far as I can tell, this is all theoretical so far.

rolph

15 hours ago

amphiphillic vesicles are a stepping stone for persistent molecular forms. essentially a reaction vessel, insulating the contents from the extravesicular mayhem.

jojobas

12 hours ago

It's thought that life on Earth started with RNA mayhem, not with vessels to isolate from it.

IAmBroom

44 minutes ago

There are a lot of different opinions on how life on Earth started, even amongst scientists studying it, and none of them are strongly supported by substantial, reproduced evidence.

andrewflnr

11 hours ago

RNA world is mainstream, but a few scientists have proposed that something like cell membranes, such as these vesicles, came first and provided the environment for more complex chemistry.

evrimoztamur

11 hours ago

Life exists at the boundaries of density changes.

It makes absolutely no sense that the code would precede the hardware, and the hardware needs shielding.

StopDisinfo910

4 hours ago

It doesn’t have to make sense.

It’s all a case of dynamic equilibrium in complex systems and emergence. Finality doesn’t really come into it.

fooker

4 hours ago

Funny that code did predate hardware.

codesnik

8 hours ago

but actual code preceded the hardware!

anonzzzies

6 hours ago

indeed, people like Dijkstra wrote quire a bit of code on paper before the hardware to run that code existed.

Gravityloss

2 hours ago

Well, there existed ware, the code ran on wetware

rollcat

4 hours ago

This. Ada Lovelace wrote programs for Babbage's analytical engine long before anyone succeeded at constructing one.

andrewflnr

10 hours ago

In defense of RNA: you know about ribozymes, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribozyme Life does not really respect a code/hardware divide.

oh_fiddlesticks

4 hours ago

The source code of life is recorded and transmitted using physical matter.

Physics very much matters to matter.

For development of any information storage systems made of molecules, there must be a supportive development environment.

To even start the process of doing anything like what we see happening in a cell, homeostasis must be achieved first, and not inelegantly, its not good enough to have a complete cell wall if it has no ports for entry and exit of nutrients and waste product, thats also known as a coffin.

Both the walls and the gates and the information / physical systems to reliably exploit those features must be present at the same time to enable abiogenesis.

SJC_Hacker

36 minutes ago

Not necessarily. The primitive cell wall could have used other mechanisms. For example simple protrusion of the membrane does not have to resulr in catastrophic collapse, if done slowly enough membrane allows substances to enter and exit and still remain intact by closing up quickly after wall is broken

If you play around with soap bubbles carefully you can observe phenomena like this.

AllegedAlec

2 hours ago

Congratulations. Now go and read the literature and learn how this might've occurred. You're not the first person to raise these objections. Biologists aren't morons.

tomrod

4 hours ago

I see where you're coming from, but I think you're thinking across too far over the boundary. Quantum mechanics aren't ordinarily affected by non-sentient life, they're just primitive to the environment at the macro level.

root_axis

2 hours ago

Quantum mechanics has no relationship to sentience.

parineum

33 minutes ago

That's a pretty strong statement considering both facts that quantum mechanics affects everything and sentience is not understood.

tomrod

2 hours ago

Correct. My apologies that my comment was unclear such that from my comment's content one could not distinguish particle accelerators built by sentient life and woo-woo New Age claims of "The Secret" or manifesting.

cmrx64

10 hours ago

transmembrane proteins are complex hardware of their own…

bongodongobob

10 hours ago

I think the idea is that if you have a nice bubbly froth and some proteins/RNA type thing end up inside and help reinforce the bubble wall through electrostatic forces you get a symbiotic relationship. The soup inside reinforces the bubbles around it.

dsign

8 hours ago

And everything that we hold dear happens after that.

I don't object to this explanation of the world, but I reckon it's an uphill battle convincing people that all of the living natural world, and all of human history, their culture, their religions and their science and all the beliefs in-between had their origin in some electrostatic forces. I'm of the opinion that even well-informed people of science haven't had time to fully adjust their world-view during the handful of decades we have known this much.

igleria

6 hours ago

Dunno about everyone else, but if that is the origin of everything that lives on this planet, I'd find relief. One less question in an ever increasing sea of questions is better than just an ever increasing sea of questions.

ggm

12 hours ago

I like the "vesicle first" theory because planar sheets of reaction can form perturbations, so getting from two surfaces mixing to complex shapes and enclosures feels plausible given any significant vibration or wave.

Once you have an enclosure you have potential for osmosis and other differentials across the boundary. It's not life Jim, but it's one hell of a building block/precursor.

Iv

an hour ago

*methane and ethane lakes

Thought it could be a useful precision.

markus_zhang

2 hours ago

OK so maybe they should drop a monolith there instead.

dash2

9 hours ago

This feels very cynical, but what incentive does NASA have to do research showing alien life is not very likely in our solar system?

robbomacrae

8 hours ago

Regardless of incentives I think this is some of the most important research they should be doing. As a species we need to get a better understanding of the probability of life on other planets and therefore a better understanding of fermi's paradox in case the dark forest theory is correct. So if NASA has an incentive to discover potential pathways for extraterrestrial life... great!

pavel_lishin

2 hours ago

> a better understanding of fermi's paradox in case the dark forest theory is correct.

We know so little about this, that we can't even begin to estimate the probabilities. It seems like other things are known potential dangers to us, no?

dash2

6 hours ago

The problem is that the incentive is biased against scepticism. So the process is more likely to find potential pathways but not notice obstacles or counter arguments.

catigula

2 hours ago

A non-trivial faction of our government has been teasing knowledge of some sort of non-human intelligent lifeform (that word isn't considered precisely accurate) on EARTH.

This isn't some crackpot theory, they've been having congressional hearings about it and congresspeople say it's real. You can think they are or aren't credible or being lied to, but, if congresspeople are part of or victims of some sort of psy-op with vague parameters and goals, our entire system of government is basically forfeit.

I realize this is difficult to deal with but it's a pretty well-established fact at this point.

We don't need to go anywhere for this information.

GolfPopper

35 minutes ago

>our entire system of government is basically forfeit.

<looks at America's current government>

Yep, that seems accurate. Like it or not, the current US government is full of crackpot theories.

The "evidence" of "aliens" inevitably turns out to be blurry footage where people with bias tell you what you're supposed to think it is.

As for the U.S. Congress, you're talking about a body that has been avoiding it's own responsibilities for decades, particularly so right now. Invoking "Congressional hearings" here is an appeal to an unqualified authority. (Congressional representatives presumably has some experience with laws. I do not believe they are qualified for video forensics.)

crackrook

an hour ago

> You can think they [...] aren't credible

I think I'd pick this one as being the simplest and most likely explanation if my other options are "psy-op[s] with vague parameters" and non-human intelligences sharing the planet with us. Congress people believing falsehoods is nothing new.

catigula

an hour ago

Non-human intelligence sharing the planet with us is a mundane explanation. It's a completely trivial possibility in the vastly expansive fields of biology and physics. Earth is known to host extremely complex life and is the only known planet to do so. To look for unknown forms of life one need only look at their feet. Bacteria was a previously unknown, extremely expansive form of life on Earth.

We unlocked the secrets of the atom and gained within it the capability of ending all life on earth trivially. Other secrets being locked behind physics isn't a radical speculation. In fact, it's surprising that we haven't really seen any since.

IAmBroom

40 minutes ago

> This isn't some crackpot theory, they've been having congressional hearings about it and congresspeople say it's real.

Congresspeople also say Jewish space lasers are a thing.

> You can think they are or aren't credible or being lied to

Yes, I do. The current GOP party is not interested in any way in scientific fact.

catigula

39 minutes ago

You've immunized yourself from any possibility of entertaining this information. Many people sharing it aren't republicans, including senators.

ceejayoz

15 minutes ago

Senators are humans, and the selection process prioritizes charm over knowledge. Many people share all sorts of silly ideas.

I'm very prepared to look at evidence of aliens visiting Earth, but it better be damned good evidence.

Dilettante_

2 hours ago

>if congresspeople are part of or victims of some sort of psy-op [...] our entire system of government is basically forfeit.

And you're asserting that this cannot possibly be the case? "For that which must not be, cannot be"?

catigula

an hour ago

No, I'm just asserting that I don't find that theory tenable.

I'd love to know more (even your mundane explanation of "there's a psy-op on congresspeople for some reason" - if so, why?) but it's been decided that we're not allowed.

IAmBroom

37 minutes ago

One needn't posit a "psy-op".

We already know major GOP leaders court votes by pushing absurd ideas that are rejected by the scientific establishment. "Injecting bleach can cure Covid" is one from the highest-ranking GOP elected official. "No vaccines are safe" is from a top health official.

fwip

2 hours ago

Making the analysis harder is the fact that those politicians are either exceedingly stupid or brazen liars, or both.

catigula

an hour ago

Credible non-politicians, people in sensitive CIA or senior military leadership have consistently made these claims. They may all be liars, but none seem particularly stupid.

One problem is that we haven't gotten a "UAP Snowden". Such a person has seen a serious chilling effect.

rkomorn

36 minutes ago

Or maybe there's been "no UAP Snowden" because there's actually nothing to leak.

jiggawatts

9 hours ago

This is a point I keep making: every one of NASA’s Mars missions has very carefully excluded any scientific instrument that could conclusively eliminate the presence of life... and hence future missions to find life.

I.e.: they don’t carry high power microscopes because apparently there’s no room for one on a 900kg rover the size of a car.

someothherguyy

8 hours ago

> they don’t carry high power microscopes because apparently there’s no room for one on a 900kg rover the size of a car

They do though:

"The WATSON (Wide Angle Topographic Sensor for Operations and eNgineering) is a reflight of the MAHLI (MArs Hand Lens Imager) that is a part of the Curiosity rover (Edgett et al., 2012). WATSON obtains full-color images from microscopic scales (∼13 μm/pixel) to infinity and is used for initial textural analysis of rock and regolith targets, as well as to assess potential proximity science targets and the safety of robotic arm activities (Edgett et al., 2012). The ACI (Autofocus Contextual Imager) is a fixed field, 10.1 μm/pixel resolution grayscale imager used to obtain best-focus and colocate laser spots with surface feature analyzed during SHERLOC spectroscopic investigations (Bhartia et al., 2021)."

From: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2022EA00...

See also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_(rover)#Instrumen...

https://science.nasa.gov/mission/mars-2020-perseverance/scie...

jiggawatts

8 hours ago

They do not, because that's not high power microscope. I chose my words carefully.

10-13 μm per pixel is nowhere near good enough when a typical bacterium is 0.5 - 5.0 μm in size!

I remember the discussions around the mission plan for both Opportunity and Curiosity where NASA kept making "mumbly" noises about why they can't ship decent optics with these things.

Anything that would definitely eliminate (not just "potentially find") the presence of either life or water is never included. It's always omitted, for "reasons".

Water and life must forever remain possible things for the funding to keep flowing.

maxbond

7 hours ago

Individual bacteria are also generally not visible in optical microscopes without staining. If there was life on the surface of mars, you probably wouldn't need a microscope to see it. Just like you don't need a microscope to observe your bread it's moldy.

Water isn't an abstract possibility on Mars. It's a reality. They've found minerals that only form in water, they've found ice, they've observed erosion. We don't understand the hydrology of Mars but it isn't some kind of conspiracy. It's a laborious process, which they continue to chug away at.

Looking for life isn't the primary mission of Mars rovers. They're remote controlled geologists. The search for life really has nothing to do with funding for Mars missions. No one expects to find it.

Scarblac

9 hours ago

What kind of instrument could conclusively eliminate presence of life?

keithwhor

9 hours ago

One that goes boom.

lukan

8 hours ago

Some bacteria survives hard radiation of deep space in stasis mode.

jiggawatts

7 hours ago

Anything that can return a sample. Notice that Curiosity collects samples, but omits the sample return rocket.

A good enough microscope can easily tell the difference between life and non-life, especially in the presence of water. If it moves on its own, it is almost certainly alive!

Certain kinds of chromatographs can conclusively determine that no complex chemicals are present, the kind essential to life. I.e.: if only simple metal oxides and the like are present, then you have only a rock.

rsynnott

6 hours ago

> Anything that can return a sample. Notice that Curiosity collects samples, but omits the sample return rocket.

NASA (and also the Soviet Union and ESA) have repeatedly designed Mars sample return missions, but have not done them for budgetary reasons; it would be tremendously difficult and expensive.

Here's the current one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA-ESA_Mars_Sample_Return - however, given that it was hitting funding problems even _before_ ol' minihands gutted NASA funding, it seems destined to become yet another NASA/ESA canceled program (there's a bit of a history of ambitious NASA/ESA collaborations which die when one side or the other pulls the budgetary plug; JWST was likely lucky to escape this fate, say).

This puts it in a particularly weird place, as the earth return section is already built and due to launch on an Ariane 6 in two years (it will then proceed, slowly, to Mars using an ion drive, and await the lander and Mars launcher, which will presumably never arrive because budgets).

IAmBroom

33 minutes ago

You're suggesting we can state "Mars has no life" based on a single sample?

If that's so, I can produce a sample of material from the center of the Amazon rain forest that will conclusively prove to you that Earth is also lifeless.

someothherguyy

6 hours ago

> A good enough microscope can easily tell the difference between life and non-life, especially in the presence of water.

They are still arguing over this one three decades later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Hills_84001

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg7905

" Inorganic precipitation processes are capable of producing a wide range of morphological outputs. This range includes shapes with both crystallographic and non-crystallographic symmetry elements. Among the latter, morphologies that mimic primitive living organisms are easily obtained under different physico-chemical conditions including those that are geochemically plausible. The application of this information to the problem of deciphering primitive life on the early Earth and Mars is discussed. It is concluded that morphology cannot be used unambiguously as a tool for primitive life detection. "

https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of...

lukan

9 hours ago

Erm, just no. I have an old book lying around about Viking, the first mission to the surface of Mars and written before it reached Mars. The book is full of the expectation that they will find life and are rather curious what kind of life. (And the book describes all the instruments and methology)

But no traces of life were found ever.

If there is life on Mars, it is hidden underground in vulcanic active areas and alike and no mission we can do today, could conclude with certainty that there is no life on Mars. But we have been looking real hard.

veqq

8 hours ago

What's the name of the book?

lukan

8 hours ago

Projekt Viking by Ernst Stuhlinger.

But in german and no idea if it was ever translated, but I assume similar books exist in english.

metalman

6 hours ago

This article is a wonderfull fever dream of genisis.Though it's starting point is mundane. The whole vesicle theory is built on a physical/mechanical process ubiquitous in nature,that so far has no connection with life. Wildly suggestive and so so close, but when you look at the actual way vesicles are made, and cell walls are made, they are not the same, but have the same properties, as it lkely that physics and chemistry only allow for tiny bubbles(cue track), to form in a limited number of ways, one is an accident, and the other a mystery.

IAmBroom

30 minutes ago

> The whole vesicle theory is built on a physical/mechanical process ubiquitous in nature,that so far has no connection with life.

To be fair, the conditions that were ubiquitous on Earth when life first formed are now extraordinarily rare, if they exist anywhere at all on the planet.

Padriac

8 hours ago

... or they might not.

neutrinobro

3 hours ago

Titan is completely dead, you can bet on that.

IAmBroom

29 minutes ago

I would bet on that, but not with absolute certainty.