Cape Station, future home of an enhanced geothermal power plant, in Utah

181 pointsposted 5 months ago
by mooreds

81 Comments

Ken_At_EM

5 months ago

Super glad to be a part of this. Our MicroPulse Measurement While Drilling Systems have been used to drill numerous wells for Fervo. We also developed a first of its kind navigation system for the first full scale Eavor loop in Germany.

Heres a presentation we did on the system last year alongside Schlumberger. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kfOGKfEoPb0?t=7852s Potatoe quality but my part starts at 2:10:52.

It’s absolutely awesome deploying our super rugged, super high temp drilling technologies for GeoThermal.

If you’re interested in working on this kind of tech we’re hiring.

mooreds

5 months ago

> If you’re interested in working on this kind of tech we’re hiring.

All jobs onsite in Houston: https://www.erdosmiller.com/jobs

Interesting that the tech sales job is bilingual (haven't seen that too often).

msandford

5 months ago

Hey Ken!

It was great working with you at DigiDrill. Glad to see you're still pushing the frontier of high temp, high G MWD systems.

Keep up the good work!

AndrewKemendo

5 months ago

How do you do inspections on the buried assets?

Ken_At_EM

5 months ago

Not sure what you mean, our equipment is conveyed in and out of the well during the drilling process.

giggyhack

5 months ago

I have been following this company and several others (Quaise, Fervo, Sage) in the EGS Space for a little bit now, and I think we are on the cusp of a huge breakthrough in baseload renewable energy. This site in Utah is one of the largest test cases that expands the use of EGS to a much broader area than just a few geothermal hot spots. Prices are dropping dramatically, and these things are moving quickly beyond the R&D phase. There is a world where every major data center across the Western US has its own base load power supply that has essentially no pollution, no footprint, no hazardous waste, and no need for complicated permitting. EGS truly could be a game changer in the world's push to decarbonize. I'm super excited.

amarcheschi

5 months ago

At least in Tuscany - where there is a cluster of geothermal power plants creating 1/3 of the region electricity (it should reach 40% in a few years) - they had to invent special filters to lower the emission of mercury and hydrogen sulfide https://www.enelgreenpower.com/stories/articles/2024/10/geot...

I don't know if it's "no footprint" at all. For what I know, which is not much, but just what a person living here might know, there's a footprint that can be somehow managed. But I'm not an engineer

sarchertech

5 months ago

The plants mentioned in the article are closed systems. They aren’t releasing steam into the atmosphere like the plants you’re referencing.

skipants

5 months ago

> no pollution, no footprint, no hazardous waste

As a layman, I assume waste heat would still be an issue? Even so I would also assume it's still way less damaging to the environment than everything else.

aDyslecticCrow

5 months ago

I'm not quite sure about that. The earths core should generate the same amount of heat (through gravitational friction and radioactive decay) regardless if we tap it or not. If the heat didn't escape somehow already it would slowly get hotter.

Whaste heat from nuclear or fusion does contribute to earth heating, though insignificant compared to any source pf c02.

But my intuition tells me geothermal wouldn't...

Mm. Actually, water vapor is a potent greenhouse gas; and that's how to covert heat to energy. So mabie it would indeed be significant.

ACCount37

5 months ago

Waste heat is always "an issue", but rarely an issue worth caring much about.

Global warming isn't happening due to industrial waste heat - it's happening due to CO2 emissions being a massive leverage for messing with how the planet absorbs and emits heat.

rplnt

5 months ago

Complicated permitting as compared to what? I would assume it's much more complicated than solar, and less complicated than... is there anything else available at small scale?

loeg

5 months ago

Nuclear is the comparable power source -- both have high upfront costs, long build times, low operating costs and clean generation. If deep geothermal can come in cheaper than nuclear, there's basically no reason to do nuclear.

gpm

5 months ago

There's some small wind generation (e.g. designed to go on top of buildings), though I don't think it's ever been a significant commercial success.

foobarian

5 months ago

coal or gas i would guess

filenox

5 months ago

Most wells at Cape Station are between 8,000 and 9,000 feet deep, and the deepest one extends a mind-blowing 15,000 feet below the surface. That is about the depth you'd get to if you stacked 50 Statues of Liberty on top of each other!

For those who prefer a less American-centric metric: 8,000–9,000 feet is approximately 2.5 kilometers. 15,000 feet is about 4.5 kilometers — roughly the height of 14 Eiffel Towers stacked on top of each other!

ajkjk

5 months ago

It's so silly to use statues of liberty as a metric when nobody really knows how tall it is either (famously it's a lot smaller than people expect).

Tempest1981

5 months ago

Helpful but pointless metrics:

1 Statue of Liberty (including foundation) is roughly 1 American football field (excluding end zones)

1 Eiffel Tower is around 3 Statues of Liberty (each with foundation)... which is almost 1600 bananas

daedrdev

5 months ago

Football fields, despite being a meme, are very easy for Americans to visualize

checkyoursudo

5 months ago

One statue of liberty (Liberty Enlightening the World, Liberty Island, NYC) is approximately 4 times the size of one statue of liberty (Liberty Enlightening the World replica, Île aux Cygnes, Paris).

Easy peasy.

rplnt

5 months ago

The idea is you assume it with the base while they only used the statue itself, making whatever they are measuring look more impressive.

catlifeonmars

5 months ago

AU would have been the most universal measurement.

lostlogin

5 months ago

Metric? That unit of measure must surely be imperial?

adrianmonk

5 months ago

It's probably done because Statues of Liberty is the ultimate "freedom unit".

Animats

5 months ago

> 8,000–9,000 feet is approximately 2.5 kilometers.

The usual value for the geothermal gradient is 25 to 30 degrees C per kilometer. So at 2.5km, in most locations they might be able to get boiling water, but not superheated steam. Most of the geothermal enthusiasts are talking about needing to go down 4 to 12 kilometers. Is there something special about the geology at this site?

jandrewrogers

5 months ago

The site is part of the largest high-quality geothermal basin in the world. It is larger than most countries, encompassing almost the entirety of Nevada and large parts of adjacent States. The geothermal potential of the region is enormous, even just using classic geothermal technology.

The US has long been the world's leading producer of geothermal power, mostly generated from this basin.

AnimalMuppet

5 months ago

I couldn't see anything that said, but... probably.

Beaver County, Utah, has at least one hot spring, and I suspect more than that. I'm pretty sure that the location for this project was not chosen at random.

metalman

5 months ago

likely it is hot, porous rock that is capped in such a way that injected water will heat to the super critical point for water , or water exists as a super critical fluid there already

realityfactchex

5 months ago

Actually, 3 miles means a lot more to Americans than 15,000 feet, much like your 2.5 kilometers.

And 50 football fields would mean a lot more, to less measurement-aware Americans.

_DeadFred_

5 months ago

The Statue of Liberty was made by France. This IS us Americans trying to use less American-centric units of measure.

apitman

5 months ago

Both made by the French

yread

5 months ago

> 4.5 kilometers — roughly the height of 14 Eiffel Towers stacked on top of each other!

Or about one Mont Blanc from sea level

user

5 months ago

[deleted]

RobinL

5 months ago

This provides a lot of interesting info on geothermal: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/watt-lies-beneath/

And more: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/fracking-aust...

One interesting point made here is that the cost of turbines puts a floor price on any form.of generation which uses them, whether renewable or not, meaning in the long run solar has a big advantage: https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/casey-handmer. I don't know how accurate that is

loeg

5 months ago

Kinda. We have a lot of existing coal plants that we want to offline to decarbonize, and they've already got turbines.

thayne

5 months ago

How hard is it to repurpose those turbines for other sources? And are they in good enough shape to get a long life out of them after being repurposed?

loeg

5 months ago

I don't know -- I'm far from an expert on this -- but ultimately they're both steam-driven turbines.

mattferderer

5 months ago

If memory serves me right, the 2024 Energy Geek Out episode touched on this topic. https://www.dotnetrocks.com/details/1931

If I recall they touched on how US oil drilling companies with lots of experience in horizontal drilling were being used by these companies & the financing that goes into them.

its-kostya

5 months ago

Today I discovered that geothermal energy is a thing, cool! An immediate question that comes to mind is how much "energy potential" does the earth store and "how is it generated"? I'd imagine something about gravity or magnetic waves that move the iron* core and stuff. Anyone know some resources I can read more about this?

giggyhack

5 months ago

Assuming we can drill deep enough and harness it, the thermal energy in the earth's crust is essentially infinite.

b112

5 months ago

People said "the Earth is too big, human activity can't change the climate". Now look at where we are.

I wonder, if we draw enough heat out... would the core cool enough to shrink? And if so, would the crust collapse to the new size?

Pure speculation of course, but did the first guy burning coal know the outcome?

Anyhow, I love geothermal, think you're right, but just got tweaked on the word "infinite".

thehappypm

5 months ago

Just some rough physics..

Q = m c ΔT

m = mass of the crust (roughly 10^22 kg)

C = specific heat of crust (roughly 1000 J/kg·K)

ΔT = 1 K

Q = 10^25 joules would be needed to lower the earths crust by 1 degree K

About 10,000 years worth of today’s human energy consumption

toomuchtodo

5 months ago

Following on to this, enough sunlight hits the Earth in 30 minutes to power humanity for a year. So geothermal wouldn’t need to provide all of today’s human energy consumption, just that last bit that renewables, existing nuclear, transmission, storage, and demand response can’t provide for today.

(1GW of solar PV is deployed every 15 hours globally as of this comment)

user

5 months ago

[deleted]

conditionnumber

5 months ago

I wonder how much ΔT you need at the crust to meaningfully change Earth's magnetic field by altering convection patterns in the outer core. I don't know enough physics to attempt an answer.

lazide

5 months ago

The outer core is 2,890 KM (~ 1800 miles) below the earths crust, and has the mantle in the way. The crust itself is only 30KM thick. [https://phys.org/news/2017-02-journey-center-earth.html] The crust is basically a thin layer of slag on top of a giant ball of molten everything.

Even at million+ year timescales, I can’t see any way the temperature of the upper crust could matter to the core at all - even if the crust was at absolute zero.

Dirt insulates relatively well, and the amount of thermal mass present is mindboggling.

thehappypm

5 months ago

if you lived in the Earth’s core (~6000k) the surface (~300k) would be a rounding error above absolute zero anyway

conditionnumber

5 months ago

> would be a rounding error above absolute zero anyway

Kind of joking: unless there are nonlinear effects near 300K? Fig 4 [1] seems to suggest that the thermal diffusivity of the mantle grows very fast as temperature declines past 300K... but the data stop at 200K.

Reason for initial comment: we could probably set up a spherical heat equation to guess how crust cooling would change heat conduction at the outer core. But I have absolutely no idea how to reason about changes in heat conduction affecting the convection dynamics that generate the field. I was silently hoping for one of the domain experts lurking this forum to see it and share wisdom. (But overall it was a silly question, I know).

[1] https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/200...

aDyslecticCrow

5 months ago

Calculating or simulating how earths magnetic field behaves or is generated is quite a complex task. So im doubtful we can usefully estimate it to such precision. It would be interesting though.

hollerith

5 months ago

We know that if the convection in the outer core stops, the Earth's magnetic field stops, and removing enough heat from the core will stop the convection.

aDyslecticCrow

5 months ago

Yes but calculating the energy draw required for any measurable change in this effect is very different from knowing the rough process it operates on.

We know how weather works quite well, but knowing if it will rain in a week is an entirely different beast.

hollerith

5 months ago

I've seen a confident estimate in the form of a calculation. They know what kind of compounds (term?) are in the outer core and they know the minimum temperature those compounds need to be at to be free-flowing enough to sustain the field. And I'm pretty sure we know the current temperature of the outer core.

My memory is that the calculation found that if humanity switched to geothermal for all its energy needs, then in only about 1000 years, the core cools enough for the magnetic field to stop, but I am not sure.

(We should definitely deploy geothermal in the Yellowstone caldera though long enough to cool it down enough so that it will not erupt again.)

user

5 months ago

[deleted]

rkomorn

5 months ago

Isn't the atmosphere we're affecting on the order of 1 millionth of Earth's mass?

It'd take multiple orders of magnitude more impact from humanity for us to actually affect the core, no?

stevage

5 months ago

There is also the issue that using geothermal energy can cause earthquakes.

aDyslecticCrow

5 months ago

I think thats actually disputed. I'm not entirely sure though and i dont have the time to look it up right now.

user

5 months ago

[deleted]

aDyslecticCrow

5 months ago

Alot of the heat comes from radioactive decay. Heavy radioactive elements under alot of pressure and heat. There's also friction from our moon (earth seems to have a more active core than many other planets) and simply being very well isolated. (Rock is a terrible heat conductor)

Also... Iceland. They're massive in aluminium production for a reason. They have basically infinate abundant energy boiling out from the ground. Here in sweden its used by alot of homes for heating; getting a well producing 60c water is pretty cheap. (A single home may have their own well)

The issue is using it for power really only becomes viable when you reach superheated steam temperatures. And at those depths; drills melt, so its use outside of volcanic regions has been real slow.

hexpeek

5 months ago

From a Bill Gates documentary, I saw research with partner companies aimed at improving nuclear power generation mechanisms to reduce waste and increase efficiency. Bill Gates’ endeavors always seem positive and fascinating.

genghisjahn

5 months ago

I hear the voice of Stephan when I read this title.

cyberax

5 months ago

What was the power plant's cost? I can't find it in Google/Kagi.

swayvil

5 months ago

Pipes, steam, turbines...

We need better peltier devices.

quickthrowman

5 months ago

The maximum COP for a peltier device is 1, in practice it’s far below that.

Heat pumps go way beyond a COP of 1; an open-loop cooling system with an evaporative cooling tower can have a COP of 7. A closed loop heat pump alone can have a COP of 4.

Peltier devices are a dead end for moving heat around outside of specialized applications where you can’t drag around two heat exchangers, a valve, and a pump (like active cooling clothing). It’s impossible for them to even approach the efficiency of resistive heating (COP of 1).

tipidNasuada

5 months ago

I thought exactly the same thing. Peltier's themselves don't really have a pathway for becoming as efficient as steam turbines but there are other methods currently in research. One promising idea is to use sodium vapor in a fuel cell style device: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpowsour.2017.10.022

ericfr11

5 months ago

It's been very common in Europe for years. People even have individual heat pump at home. US is so much behind on new technologies

Ozarkian

5 months ago

You didn't understand the article. A home heat pump isn't a power source.

cman1444

5 months ago

I'm not sure what you're saying. Heat pumps are a completely different thing than geothermal energy.

cowsandmilk

5 months ago

Where Europe is ahead of the US is really in neighborhood wide geothermal for heating and cooling. The US tends to only use networked multi building geothermal for corporate and university campuses while having little central planning for a neighborhood of individuals to migrate to geothermal.

thinkcontext

5 months ago

Well its clear you didn't read the article, it explains how this particular type of geothermal is a technological advance. Current geothermal electrical generation is limited to very specific geology, enhanced geothermal is able to be used in many more places.