Fine dining restaurants researching guests to make their dinner unforgettable

48 pointsposted 9 hours ago
by borski

101 Comments

prasadjoglekar

9 hours ago

The title seems ominous but the article itself is about how a fancy restaurant will go out of it's way to make you feel special. They're perusing your social media for clues.

In the past your spouse or kid would call and let the maitre'd know it was special; now I guess it's a job for someone on staff.

steveBK123

8 hours ago

Until some YC backed SaaS LLM AI automates the process and it becomes table stakes. Then they find other uses for it..

hungmung

8 hours ago

I'm waiting for fully automated writing style recognition that finds all your throwaway accounts and sends you a shakedown letter.

satvikpendem

8 hours ago

Reproducing Hacker News writing style fingerprinting, by antirez of Redis fame

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43705632

steveBK123

8 hours ago

It’s really great that the most successful people in Silicon Valley disregard the social implications of their work. Arguably that’s what makes them so successful.

satvikpendem

8 hours ago

This was possible before, as the post shows with a previous HN post, nothing to do with Silicon Valley.

brookst

8 hours ago

Are we really doing the slippery slope dangers of a high end restaurant going out of their way to delight?

Animats

41 minutes ago

Customer profiling for restaurants is now available as a hosted service.[1] The industry term is "unified guest profile".

"Imagine this: A guest walks into your hotel. The front desk greets them by name, already knows they prefer a room away from the elevator, and offers a complimentary drink, the same cocktail they ordered at your rooftop bar during their last stay. At breakfast the waiter suggests asks if the guest wants the usual omelet or the menu to try something new, and at checkout, they’re offered a late checkout because their flight doesn’t leave until 8 p.m.

That’s not sci-fi. That’s what happens when your guest data systems actually talk to each other."[2]

[1] https://www.hungerrush.com/restaurant-marketing-loyalty/the-...

[2] https://www.hospitalitynet.org/explainer/4127923.html

user

an hour ago

[deleted]

atmavatar

6 hours ago

If they're already vetting your social media, they can also start refusing service based upon religious or political leanings displayed in your posts. No slope (slippery or otherwise) is required.

Imagine making reservations for a family dinner but being turned away at the door because the restaurant found a post (in support/critical) of Trump or one of his policies. The restaurant would be completely within its rights to do so, even if it seems a stupid and pointless business decision to cut clientele in half.

tptacek

3 hours ago

So, yes, is your answer to the preceding question.

CoastalCoder

2 hours ago

> and it becomes table stakes.

I see what you did there.

dang

4 hours ago

Thanks! We've changed the title above to use a more representative phrase from the article.

jjmarr

8 hours ago

Reminds me of The Menu.

satvikpendem

8 hours ago

Reminds me of The Bear which has scenes like this. It is quite common in higher end restaurant, like those at the Michelin level to customize the experience for each guest (at least to a small degree, not necessarily changing out the entire menu for them).

pbh101

8 hours ago

Which itself draws from the book ‘Unreasonable Hospitality’ and iirc the Chicago restaurant ‘Ever’ featured in the show applies this approach.

tptacek

3 hours ago

(The "Ever" in "The Bear" is a composite of many restaurants).

brookst

8 hours ago

And the Four Seasons has been recognized for this for many years; it was a case study in business school for me.

mingus88

8 hours ago

The Bear is literally the lead-in paragraph for the article

yieldcrv

8 hours ago

Going to The French Laundry has many similar to The Menu and felt like it was what the movie was satirizing

munificent

an hour ago

The Willows Inn is an even stronger parallel.

Literally a tiny island that people travel to and stay at the inn just to eat dinner. When you're there, it appears that the staff outnumber patrons about two to one.

My wife and I went there for an anniversary dinner (and breakfast the next morning). It was an incredible experience. Certainly the best meal of my life and one of the best evenings.

But I watched The Menu later and that movie hit a little too close to home.

fnord77

8 hours ago

author doesn't understand the definition of "vetting"

which is par for the course for sfgate/chronicle

chasil

an hour ago

Restaurants concentrate too hard on the things that are not food.

If a restaurateur and/or the head chef has any pretensions of greatness, then they must master two French dishes, Coq au Vin, and Boeuf Bourguignon.

Before investing in anything else, these are tollgates.

WorldWideWebb

23 minutes ago

That’s complete rubbish. What of the sushi chef who has no knowledge or experience with French cuisine or someone who has mastered how to make a great taco? Would you not consider them masters of their craft, because I sure would.

munificent

an hour ago

I respect that you at least literally admit that you are gatekeeping.

chasil

36 minutes ago

It is a certain gatekeeping that demands some quantity of flexibility in culinary arts.

npinsker

an hour ago

Sounds like someone has never had Massaman curry

Hnrobert42

3 hours ago

Privacy concerns aside, I would be mortified if a restaurant did something special for me. I don't want extra attention. I don't want to have to pretend to be excited about a beverage I don't really care for or a gift I will just throw away.

Now if you will excuse, I see some clouds at which I need to shake my cane.

maxbond

35 minutes ago

Didn't worry, they'll find this comment and stick you at an okay booth, provide okay service, and pretend not to recognize you next time you come in. It'll be perfect.

magicalhippo

38 minutes ago

Many moons ago I was celebrating an anniversary with my parents and sister at a smallish, but very good, restaurant downtown.

As we were chatting while waiting for the dessert, the whole restaurant started singing "Happy Birthday", as the waiter (and owner) came with the dessert, sparkler and all.

I sooo wanted to just disappear.

Turned out my mom had told the waiter/owner about the occasion, and he had unbeknownst to my mom gotten all the other guests in on it.

Nice thought, just totally not my thing.

CoastalCoder

2 hours ago

What if their special thing for you was to treat you like a truly genetic customer?

I.e., like what Leslie Knope did for Run Swanson on his birthday.

rglover

8 hours ago

So this is basically a modern approach to Danny Meyer's (Union Square Hospitality Group [1]) "collecting the dots" he described in his book Setting the Table [2].

His suggestion was to have staff listen to conversations (and have conversations with guests) and then record any interesting "dots" like a child having a graduation coming up or an anniversary just around the corner. That way on their next visit the staff could be well-prepared.

Click-bait headline makes you think otherwise, but this is just standard hospitality stuff.

[1] https://www.ushg.com/

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Setting-Table-Transforming-Hospitalit...

bapak

an hour ago

I don't know if the times have changed, but if the staff at the restaurant I've been twice knows something I did not tell them, I would not be particularly comfortable with that.

satvikpendem

7 hours ago

It's funny to read these comments, of course HN would react this way but since the vast majority of restaurant patrons are so-called normies, it doesn't make much sense to cater to HNers. In fact, most normal people actually prefer that restaurants know their interests and cater to them, it leads to their higher satisfaction and makes the restaurant experience (which includes more than just the taste of the food, for most people at least) more memorable overall.

zzo38computer

13 minutes ago

I would prefer the restaurant to know that which is relevant, which is I would tell them anything which is relevant. They do not necessarily need to know my name in order for this to work.

sublinear

7 hours ago

I don't see what's so normal about any of this. In the past your friends would just mention a few hints while making the reservation... and people still do this now.

If they need to scan your social media, that speaks volumes about how you socialize and the quality of those interactions. Plenty of "normal" people don't want this either. The thoughts mean more coming from your friends than a creepy restaurant.

JumpCrisscross

3 hours ago

I’m genuinely confused by people who find it creepy that their public social media be scanned and analysed. You made it public!

maxbond

28 minutes ago

People want the benefits of interacting in public without the cost of being scrutinized and manipulated. When they post in public, they are not, in their minds, giving people permission to cyberstalk them and build out a profile. Legally, it's sort of the case that they're granting people that permission. But not morally.

If I was talking to a group of friends in real life, and I realized someone in the group was developing an obsession and closely keeping track of everything I said and subjecting it to endless scrutiny, I would be super creeped out. Even though they had every legal right to do that.

I understand that to some extent my friends build a profile of me in their heads and use it to anticipate like, if I want to go to an event with them. But that's not really a difference of degree, there's a phase change when it becomes an obsession and it becomes a difference of kind.

Similarly sometimes retail workers get to know my taste and will point out some item I would be interested in. Sometimes that makes me uncomfortable, but because I'm shy, not because they did anything wrong. If I learned they were reading my social media profile, it would start feeling uncomfortably close to the plot of The Menu.

shawnz

an hour ago

If you talk to your friends in person in a public space, would you be comfortable with restauranteurs stealthily following you around and analyzing your conversations? Why is social media any different?

There are clearly different degrees to which information that is presented in a public space is expected to be disseminated to strangers. Simply being "made public" doesn't necessarily invite invasive spying on every detail of your public actions

sublinear

3 hours ago

The creepy part isn't what, but why. The article later mentions a place that is "old school" and actually talks to their patrons.

If the goal is to attract and keep patrons, especially at a high end restaurant where details matter, I think some formalities are still reasonably expected.

satvikpendem

3 hours ago

You're proving my point. Only do people on HN care, I've never heard of anyone "normal" expressing concern over this sort of restaurant policy, and doubly so if they made their entire account public in the first place. By all means, friends can mention a few hints, but that doesn't mean that restaurants won't do their own research.

> If they need to scan your social media, that speaks volumes about how you socialize and the quality of those interactions.

No, it doesn't, and I don't see how you came to the conclusion that if a restaurant had to scan my social media that it says anything about how I socialize. People don't just socialize only on social media, you know.

user

13 minutes ago

[deleted]

sublinear

3 hours ago

All I'm saying is if I'm important to the business they should take the time to know me in person, not try to leverage technology to make this more efficient. The customer is not cattle.

If my friends care, they will know what to surprise me with better than someone who glanced online as a rote part of their job.

satvikpendem

2 hours ago

What gave you the impression that they don't also talk to their customers as well?

cyberge99

7 hours ago

I wonder if there’s ever been a case of mistaken identity. A bear lover instead of a penguin lover for example.

astrange

3 hours ago

Good opportunity to learn about SingleThread, which is a 90s-style throwback to when it was impossible to learn anything about Japan so people just made things up. Like, they call their customers "chairman of the board" because they just heard a random word somewhere?

Japanese customer service ("omotenashi") is mostly about not listening to your customers. You get exactly what they want to give you and that's it. If you have a dietary restriction they may just kick you out because they won't/can't change the menu.

op00to

an hour ago

Japanese customer service (“omotenas”) emphasizes anticipating needs and delivering respectful, consistent service, not improvisation. It can feel rigid (no menu changes), but it’s not about ignoring or dominating it customers. If a place can accommodate a food sensitivity, they usually will. If they truly can’t, they’ll tell you clearly rather than risk doing it wrong. It’s a cultural focus on doing things properly and fairly, not a lack of care or some sort of holier-than-thou feeling.

dceddia

8 hours ago

These comments are such a great pointer to the way outrage is engineered.

fsflover

8 hours ago

Can you elaborate?

dceddia

8 hours ago

The title implies (well, I'd say explicitly states with the word "vetting") that restaurants are trying to filter guests, maybe to avoid troublesome ones with uncouth posts online or something. And many of the comments are replying to that interpretation, based on the unfairness suggested in the title. It's not only clickbait, it's outrage bait, designed to spark anger.

The article itself is about how restaurants have gone above and beyond for some guests where they've been able to tell from their social media that they're celebrating a special occasion or some other thing like that. To make the guests' experience better and memorable.

There's a privacy angle to this, should restaurants do that, slippery slope, etc etc... but many of the comments aren't talking about that. They're responding to the inflammatory title.

I don't think we often get such a clear picture into the why behind online outrage and how clearly manufactured it can often be. I think it's easy to believe people are angry for a good reason, to take the anger "on good faith" in some sense. In this case, with the title being so far from the article, it's clear to see what's going on. And makes one wonder about the rest of the outrage out there.

borski

8 hours ago

I couldn’t agree more. Half the reason I posted it was the aggressive title; I was curious to see what would happen, and it was precisely what I expected heh.

The other half of the reason was that I really did think it was an interesting article. But having to keep the title the same was a fascinating social experiment.

dceddia

8 hours ago

Thanks for running the experiment :)

vicurve

8 hours ago

You know how you sometimes read a title or a topic and you can infer the kind of commentary a particular topic will have? Even going so far as to expect words like “enshittification” to be used for both stating a point as well as for in-group signaling? Sort of like how opinions are front-loaded even if the article was read? (And very often the opinions are things we’ve heard before from many other people, this is a given).

Well, we’ve entered a period in manufactured outrage on the internet where an audience is primed ahead of time with talking points and perspectives that are deemed allowed, and then these reflexes are triggered over and over by the same kind of articles. And it’s the frenzy that counts.

It used to be confined to FB and other places but the average commenter has changed and so the average commentary has changed.

Articles are increasingly becoming rage bait, moreso than clickbait. I do not know what the appeal is yet but I imagine it’s some mixture of impulsivity that online commenting has enabled, combined with commenters thinking their take is valid/important/whatever. Maybe narcissistic but I can’t say for sure. At any rate, it’s another good way to destroy a community - especially one with self reinforcing mechanism like voting that basically ensures you’re on rails (with apologies to dhh)

userbinator

2 hours ago

It must be emphasised that they're doing this with public information and presumably whatever else you've implicitly consented to giving them, so I don't see a problem with that. Nonetheless this isn't the experience I'd want from a restaurant, and fortunately there are plenty of others to choose from.

smitelli

8 hours ago

I gotta say, I don't have the right personality traits to enjoy this kind of personal attention a lot of the time.

I've had experiences where the counter staff at my daily breakfast place started to recognize me and know what "usual" my order was going to be without my having to say it... and it really weirded me out more than anything else.

Sometimes I just want to be a faceless nobody, forgotten day after day by the businesses I visit and the public spaces I navigate.

JumpCrisscross

3 hours ago

> I don't have the right personality traits to enjoy this kind of personal attention a lot of the time

Have friends who work at the Four Seasons. This—low service interaction—is a common type of personalised attention patrons want.

I don’t think there is a social media cue for it. But even as someone who’s fairly extroverted, I got a note indicating I should be left alone if dining alone and reading.

mingus88

8 hours ago

Yeah I’m heavily introverted and feel the same way. It establishes a kind of social pressure that if I fail to hold up my side of the relationship I just get anxious

satvikpendem

8 hours ago

If you go so often that people remember you, I mean, what do you expect, that they somehow block the memory of you from their mind?

alganet

9 hours ago

It is expected that filtering based on digital content will become a thing for a while. It's one of those obvious, but misguided, uses of recent technologies.

I don't know about restaurants, but in regards to other kinds of silos, it is likely that those filters will go down once quality data availability becomes a problem.

In the restaurant analogy, you can say that if the salloon is empty, they'll let people in because they can't survive without them.

steveBK123

8 hours ago

Social Credit Score, but privatized

kube-system

8 hours ago

Of which, the name comes from the US concept of “credit score” which was always privatized.

yieldcrv

8 hours ago

Americans only care that the organization that can kill and arrest isn’t controlling all facets of life

But are tolerant that corporations do the exact same things in their society

asdf6969

2 hours ago

Maybe I’ll start taking pictures of the owners kids playing in the yard so I can establish a better relationship with the business and get better service.

joenot443

8 hours ago

Honestly, this just seems like really creative and earnest hospitality. To summarize the somewhat fluffy piece -

> Kirk also has a gigantic database of each guest — about 115,000 people — and knows how many times they’ve dined at Lazy Bear since it first opened as a supper club in 2009. She then dives into social media and finds extra information that is publicly available to get a sense of who the guests are before they come in. Finally, she puts all the data she’s gathered into a color-coded Google document that every member of the team, front and back of house, studies.

“We get hundreds of emails a day, and the intimate details that some people are willing to share, sometimes we’re like ‘Holy crap. I can’t believe you told us that,’” Booth said. “But then there’s the fun, the literal joy, our team feels when they get to make these special touches with those details.”

--

That sounds great to me! I think some commenters are imagining a kind of Black Mirror meets Berghain meets social credit scenario, but it seems like really none of those things. Cynically, one could perhaps paint it as another clever way for Bay Area folks to convert capital into emotionally emulated human experiences, though even amongst that list I'd consider it one of the more wholesome.

user

3 hours ago

[deleted]

borski

8 hours ago

I completely agree with you.

jqpabc123

8 hours ago

Seems like the potential start of a dystopian nightmare to me.

Wouldn't be better for all concerned if a 2 star restaurant worked at providing better food and service instead of privacy invasion and exploitation of the vain?

AznHisoka

8 hours ago

There are exactly 2 restaurants I recommend to people, and invite family/friends to when they’re visiting.

Absolutely none of these restaurants know who I am, do anything special for me, or even know my favorite dishes.

The only thing they have in common is they consistently make delicious tasting food. And they probably focus a lot on doing that. Its that simple.

CoastalCoder

2 hours ago

I assume you're referring to Jacques Imo's in New Orleans, then :)

zacharycohn

7 hours ago

For people who go to these restaurants, this is better service. You wouldn't find this happening at Red Robin. This is what they are paying for.

If it's not for you, that's fine.

sublinear

7 hours ago

I think you totally could replicate these experiences without the restaurant involved. Fun surprises are nice, but the absurdity of having the restaurant provide these kinds of experiences seems tacky.

I don't think I'm alone in wanting the restaurant's personality to be just as much a part of the experience as my own personality. Otherwise, what makes this place more special than any other wanting to pull the same gimmicks?

sublinear

7 hours ago

Despite much hype, past a certain point even the highest end food really is... just food.

The service is what people really pay for, and there I agree that there should be much more interesting ideas to elevate the experience than bringing in a baby penguin. I don't see anything in the article as particularly creative.

JumpCrisscross

3 hours ago

> past a certain point even the highest end food really is... just food

That point is still well up there. The difference between hours-picked tomatoes and Aramark sludge is worth paying for.

renewiltord

8 hours ago

Haha this is fantastic. I suppose we must have been uninteresting guests to these places because we didn't get this degree of personalization but the food was great. A lot of these 3 Mich experiences are experiences and not just a dining alone thing so I totally get it. Fun stuff!

ChrisMarshallNY

8 hours ago

Good luck with that.

Pretty much the only social media I participate in, is ... here. I guess the Bay Area might take HN seriously, but I live in NY.

shiftpgdn

8 hours ago

That's ok, you'll get the same treatment everyone else got before they started this trend. "Normies" with their lives on the standard socials will get extra attention or special treatment at no detriment to you.

Spivak

8 hours ago

The example in the article is about getting to know your patrons so no social presence would be fine, but for what you're talking about with actual filtering no social presence would be an immediate rejection so I wouldn't be so smug.

ChrisMarshallNY

8 hours ago

Not smug. I just don’t do social media. I know many folks, with lots of money, that are similar to me.

If SMBs want to reject us, because we aren’t posting every meal on TikTok, then they only have themselves to blame.

vntok

8 hours ago

What does being rich have anything to do with this?

You seem to think SMB rejecting you is only a problem for them, have you considered that them rejecting you also means that you don't get service from them?

ChrisMarshallNY

8 hours ago

Hey listen.

Sorry if what I wrote, offended. Didn’t mean to.

So we’re done.

allears

9 hours ago

I would never eat at a restaurant that would let people like me in.

(Thanks, Groucho)

EA-3167

8 hours ago

Like many here, before I read the article I assumed this was intended to be some sort of filtering mechanism... which is a bit dystopian, but IMO the truth is much MUCH more bizarre.

We're talking about a fancy restaurant that researches you and your social media to better cater to you and make you feel "special". I think I'd prefer that this just be an extension of the velvet rope, bouncers have been around for ages, but this feels genuinely creepy.

> “The information is used as a precursor to gain more of an understanding of who our guests are,” general manager Akeel Shah explained to SFGATE. “We may not even use the information, but it gives us a better way to tailor the experience and make it memorable.”

Eewwww, no. Just no. It really feels like someone watched 'The Menu', missed the entire point of the movie, and just thought "Hey wouldn't it be neat if WE knew everything about our customers before they arrived?"

volleygman180

3 hours ago

I haven't seen The Menu, but try watching The Bear instead. They demonstrate this level-of-service & mentality and it's much more sincere than you think.

EA-3167

2 hours ago

The Menu is... overly sincere, I won't spoil it, but it's the "Restaurant as cult environment" movie. In fact the question of lacking sincerity is framed as "the audience casually disregards the immense effort and dedication requires to achieve what you demand."

...Now that's probably using restaurants as a metaphor for the film industry, but either way the point holds. I'm not put off by insincerity, it's forced, false intimacy as a product or a service goal that bothers me. Good food, good (not fawning) service is more than enough for me, I don't need this kind of race-to-the-bottom Michelin stars seem to inspire.

pseingatl

9 hours ago

Just like China's social credit system.

ethan_smith

8 hours ago

There's a fundamental difference - restaurants checking if you like wine on Instagram to enhance service is optional and consequence-free, while China's system is mandatory with significant legal and financial penalties.

bluescrn

8 hours ago

Until they start denying people service because they expressed support for the wrong political party or took the wrong side on a divisive social issue.

steveBK123

8 hours ago

Surely once this becomes the norm and more business do it, it will only ever be used for good.. right.. ?

satvikpendem

8 hours ago

Their social credit system doesn't actually exist in the way most people think it does, it was a top down mandate that each province was expected to implement in their own way, often without coordination.

https://youtu.be/Kqov6F00KMc

borski

8 hours ago

Except nothing like it? This article isn’t about filtering guests out, but about creating additional tailored experiences to those who do attend.

bigyabai

9 hours ago

Well sure, but for private enterprise.