jandrewrogers
7 hours ago
I think a lot of people are talking past each other. I’ve mostly WFH since long before the pandemic, in many different capacities at many companies. A lot of people have tunnel vision and the reality is more nuanced than most allow.
For IC work that requires minimal collaboration, WFH is often more productive. Fewer interruptions, more focus. However, when the role requires detailed collaboration and regular interaction with others, productivity for WFH falls off a cliff. This has been measurable at every company I’ve worked for that does a decent job of collecting these metrics. And anecdotally, I can feel it in my own job. When I am doing focus work, WFH is great and I get a lot done. When I need a lot of whiteboard time or deep discussions with my peers, WFH is very inefficient regardless of the remote setup, and the difference is so stark that it is difficult to argue.
I think most people are talking their own book. If you are an IC or mostly just do individual focus work, then of course WFH is great. If you need to iteratively collaborate with people on complex design problems or work products, WFH objectively has low efficiency in every organization I’ve seen try it, including companies that are remote-centric.
There is a lot of motivated reasoning in these discussions and little acknowledgement that productivity between WFH and RTO varies greatly depending on the task at hand. Every company and most roles are a mix of these types of tasks. I think many companies these days recognize this and try to allocate accordingly, but it creates legal, social, and other issues if you treat employees differently in this regard based on the nature of their roles. The reality that some people must commute to do their jobs effectively creates a class system of sorts but organizations needs all roles to be setup to ensure reasonable productivity.
This is not a black and white situation, it is a complex social problem.
vbezhenar
5 hours ago
It might be efficient to work 60 hours week. Doesn't mean we should agree to it. Remote work improves quality of life. I don't care about company KPI or efficiency, I care about my own well-being first and foremost, as long as I have a choice. Companies should adapt and if it means that their efficiency will decrease, so be it.
CalRobert
4 hours ago
Unfortunately this can be a race to the bottom as companies with wfh are driven out of business by those without
ajuc
18 minutes ago
> Unfortunately this can be a race to the bottom
This works as an argument against 8h work day and 5-day work week too.
Ultimately if something is better for the society (and WFH obviously is - commute time, carbon footprint, land prices, housing crisis - it helps with almost everything) - we should just force companies to use it by regulation, so that there's no "race" in that regard cause the conditions are the same for everybody.
The exact regulation is tricky, but sth in the spirit of "if your job can be WFH you should have an option of WFH" is a good starting point.
noch
4 hours ago
> companies with wfh are driven out of business by those without
This is unlikely. Notice the parent post said:
>> I don't care about company KPI or efficiency, I care about my own well-being first and foremost […]
So you have a situation where:
- Most of your employees think of your company's success and their lifestyle as competing interests.
- Most of your employees are focused on optimizing their lifestyle rather than the quality of their work.
Essentially these are people who don't actually want to work and would be just as happy or happier on UBI.
Now if you have another company whose employees believe in the company's mission, prioritize company success, don't see a necessary trade-off between work and lifestyle, and enjoy working with their teams in person, the latter company will outcompete the former.
I recall one of my German managers said: "The difference between workers today and the previous generation is that we lived to work, while they work to live."
pjc50
2 hours ago
Why would you prioritize company success in a world where the company has zero loyalty to you? You trade off your lifestyle in return for no equity and get made redundant at zero notice? Why would you do that?
> Most of your employees think of your company's success and their lifestyle as competing interests.
There are only so many hours in the day.
noch
37 minutes ago
> Why would you prioritize company success in a world […]
Exactly. If you don't want to work, or don't care about your work, that's fine. There are other people who care and want to work, and care about their colleagues, and they'll show up or the company will go bust.
> Why would you do that?
Everyone has to figure that out for themselves. It's the same as asking "why do I work here?"
benterix
3 hours ago
> Now if you have another company whose employees believe in the company's mission, prioritize company success, don't see a necessary trade-off between work and lifestyle, and enjoy working with their teams in person
This is a nice image you've painted but this company doesn't exist except in the minds of some CEOs and startup founders.
You know what actually happens? A CEO announces RTO, people are outraged, everybody is looking at their options, those who manage to do it switch jobs immediately, those who can't do it at the next opportunity, the ones who are left are a combination of extroverts who finally can have endless interactions with those who want them and those who don't, and a bunch of disgruntled employees who don't give a fuck about your company because of the way you treated them.
noch
32 minutes ago
> You know what actually happens? […] A bunch of disgruntled employees who don't give a fuck about your company because of the way you treated them.
I'm sorry you've had bad experiences. I hope you'll heal and be okay or find work that makes you feel appreciated and rewards you.
I remember being stealth fired simply because I was never in the office and those who were assumed "he doesn't really work here anyway". Out of sight out of mind, and Zoom couldn't fix that. Colleagues just forgot about me despite the Zoom calls.
mamonster
26 minutes ago
>I recall one of my German managers said: "The difference between workers today and the previous generation is that we lived to work, while they work to live."
I know 2 Boomers who have 8 figure networths and own their own businesses(manual work, think maintenance and installing stuff). They frequently take the opportunity to self congratulate("I worked so hard for 30 years") and complain about younger people("They don't work hard at all, always on their phone during their shift").
Can't say I was surprised when I found out that back when they started their businesses these fields were basically completely unregulated, that the regulations for these areas were in part lobbied by them(and by others like them) once they got off the ground and that both were sitting on juicy government contracts because the guy in charge of the finance department of the canton was in their unit during obligatory military service. And that's just the stuff I am aware of.
The point being: Older people really did live to work, but they never mention that their marginal rewards for extra work were much greater in most areas of the economy as compared to today.
varjag
3 hours ago
It's adorable but my modern German car came plagued by software glitches, from a development team of 6000.
CalRobert
an hour ago
When your project tracking is a fax machine that’s no surprise.
Roark66
4 hours ago
Show me one example of this.
CalRobert
3 hours ago
I was just referencing ops statement about how wfh is better even if it’s less efficient. I love wfh. I miss it.
akoboldfrying
2 hours ago
Why do you think bosses overwhelmingly want RTO?
I think they want it because they fear productivity losses that mean lower profits, and ultimately lead to the threat of becoming uncompetitive.
If you agree with that, is your position that these fears are irrational (because in your view, no such productivity loss would occur)?
shinryuu
2 hours ago
At the same time if they get worse talent because of it they could get lower productivity because of it
akoboldfrying
12 minutes ago
Agreed. So I think the question is: Which effect dominates?
Both effects depend greatly on whether most other employers in the industry agree amongst themselves on whether to allow WFH: If everyone allows WFH, or everyone forbids it, there's no incentive to change employers, so these are stable equilibria, all other things being equal. Employers prefer the no-WFH equilibrium since (they believe) that leaves productivity highest.
Eumenes
2 hours ago
> I don't care about company KPI or efficiency, I care about my own well-being first and foremost, as long as I have a choice.
You better be good then or have a niche/rare skillset. There's no intrinsic right to remote work. Things will mostly revert to pre-covid, where only the best/most disciplined/highest performers are given the freedom to WFH. Sure, some companies will be 'remote first', but for the most part, you'll need to be a special hire with an exemption carved out. I'm already seeing this in my workplace. Managers are begging leadership for remote headcount but getting Bay area headcount instead. The teams getting remote headcount are the hardest to fill/most in demand skillsets, and almost always very senior.
akoboldfrying
2 hours ago
It sounds like you're advocating for a legally protected right to WFH. Are you?
benterix
3 hours ago
> I think a lot of people are talking past each other.
Of course. Apart from the WFH majority there also vocal proponents of hybrid (and I believe some who believe in full RTO, although these seem to be very few).
The solution to this conundrum is to give people a choice. Yes, I worked for a few companies who do just that and everybody is happy! Those who want it, come to the office, those who don't, work from where they wish. Everybody's happy, and it's just that simple. The fact that most companies are afraid of even considering giving people a choice is a sign of... I don't know, a "tunnel vision"?
mellosouls
an hour ago
The solution to this conundrum is to give people a choice.
Except that if most choose full time remote, then those who favour hybrid (like me) or RTO have their choice made for them wrt collaboration and the other reasons given in the parent comment, so unfortunately, no, that's not really a solution.
wiether
5 hours ago
I totally agree with the core of your comment since that's exactly what I'm telling people when we have discussions around the topic.
But I'm surprised how truer and truer this part sadly is :
> I think a lot of people are talking past each other. I’ve mostly WFH since long before the pandemic, in many different capacities at many companies. A lot of people have tunnel vision and the reality is more nuanced than most allow.
Your comment was at the top so I read it first. Then I browsed through the other threads and... Yes, that's quite sad.
It's just simple empathy. You know what's good for you/what you want, that doesn't mean everybody should live their life the same way.
Roark66
4 hours ago
It really depends on the people you're dealing with and their motivation. I've been working from home 100% since early 2016. You can make it more efficient in almost everything (I don't do creative work - so I don't know how that would go). Add to it better wellbeing, lower environmental impact, better access to skilled workforce and lower cost for the company and there should be no doubt WFH works 100% of the time in 99% of companies. I often had small team leaders, or mid managers tell me, "but I don't really have that close personal relationship with some of the people WFH". Yeah, sometimes you don't. When you have a tough problem in the office and your boss comes down you can show him how everyone is so busy trying to resolve it. You have a group of guys looking very busy here, a loud meeting over there. And you can just run from one group to the other looking extremely involved.... When people WFH you actually need to know what they are doing (very rare a manager will have a knowledge to fully understand a deep tech issue at such level) or you just trust people are doing their best. And that is very difficult to do when you don't know if they aren't having a birthday party with their kid and pretending to work when your world is caving in. The solution? You have to have good technical team leads and you rely on them in such situations.
The horrible non-solution some companies try? Monitoring. Desktop casting, webcam always on. As long as you do that the productivity will plummet far below that of the office. Why? Because you give people another tool to show how busy they are "at work" other than the work itself. If you have no monitoring you have to prove you're working by doing actual work. We all know the products called "mouse jiggle" and such. If you cN get away with looking busy for the camera and moving the mouse many people will. All these people that pretend to work are a huge untapped economic potential. The key to utilising it is making them want to do the work.
J_Shelby_J
6 hours ago
This is a good comment and I had to think about it for a minute. I do agree with you in practicality, but I also think in person works because most people flat out can’t or won’t take the time to communicate effectively in writing. Put them in a room and they’re suddenly forced to do it. But that said, just because most people can’t effectively communicate and instead use async communications like slack zombies is not my problem. If lawyers can handle contract negotiations over email, you can handle managing people with a ticketing systems and well written emails. I mean, by the sounds of it you won’t, and that’s ok, but that’s either a skill issue or a choice and I’m tired of pretending otherwise.
simonbarker87
5 hours ago
For the vast majority of human existence the majority of communication was done verbally and in person.
We’ve never communicated this much with text and most of that increase has probably come in the past, what, 20 years?
I think rather than people being lazy/inept it’s more a case of our brains struggling to adapt to a way of communication that is thousands of years newer than speech.
sph
4 hours ago
People adapted pretty well to being glued to a screen and reading order of magnitudes more than they were used to... or do most people just spend 12h in front of phones just scrolling pictures and watching videos? I honestly don't know.
dustingetz
2 hours ago
hunter gatherers vs universities. one of these groups is dirt poor the other unimaginably wealthy in comparison
FlyingSnake
4 hours ago
You’re correct, you know.
If we’re talking about the IC work, the benefits of WFH are acknowledged even by its detractors.
The people struggling with the “management” problem in remote work are either looking at the wrong place or being oblivious that it’s solution will come from adjacent fields like lawyers or accountants. Perhaps it’s time for them to look beyond their own field?
bromuro
3 hours ago
What is an “IC work” and what does it mean “being an IC”? Can’t get the acronym.
MattPalmer1086
3 hours ago
Individual Contributer.
newswasboring
3 hours ago
It is my understanding that IC is individual contributor. So basically devs who are making their own parts of the code.
strken
11 minutes ago
IC is usually meant in contrast to manager, meaning ICs are the engineers without anyone reporting to them.
The difference between "not a manager" and "working on their own part of the code" is important when you're talking about positions with a lot of seniority like staff or principal engineers, because those ICs are still expected to work on massive projects involving a lot of cat-herding and leadership that touch large chunks of a company's code, they just aren't doing it as the manager of a team.
DrBazza
4 hours ago
WFH is best for focused work. Office is best for collaboration. I'm not sure I've found a tool that works for collaboration like a whiteboard. Digital solutions just never really worked in our company and we tried a few.
On the flip side, open source projects function just fine with 100% remote work in different time zones.
One thing I found with WFH pre-and-post Covid is the the 'Feynman moment'- "If you cannot explain something in simple terms, you don't understand it". Complex architectures in the minds of a few people, or the way creaky systems worked together, and so on. Or to put it another way, no documentation for offline folks, because no one considered it important. So much for all that boasting about business continuity plans.
Which is almost a justification for being in the office, just to ask 'those people' how things works. It should also be a big red flag to management that things need fixing. But that's in the category of the management not seeing the financial benefit of doing it as there isn't an instant measurable up-front saving.
(edit) 'those people' are typical senior devs, and senior devs are often most likely to want to, or can, WFH.
nox101
4 minutes ago
Documentation is not a complete fix. So you have 1000 pages of documentation. Which page has the answer to your question? At work you ask your coworker with more experience "Can you tell me how X works?" and get an answer immediately. On remote you type in to chat "Can you tell me how X works?" you get an answer in 5 seconds, or 30 or 5 minutes, or 10 or 3hrs later, or never. Where as in the WFO example you were back to work immediately with little to no context switching, in the remote example you might have to just go work on something else (30-60 minute context switch) while you wait for an answer, then once you get it do another 30-60 minute context switch to get back into whatever it was you were doing.
Maybe LLMs will solve this. Have them read the code and then be able to ask them questions about how it works?
It's not just docs though. Maybe it's going over an idea. "I'm thinking of solving this issue by doing X, what do you think?" Same, WFO, immediate answer. WFH, answer in 5 secs to 5hrs+ or never.
People will complain that getting a question takes them out of the zone. That might be true but it's never been true for any co-worker I've ever personally worked with. Nor with myself. It's always been easy and pleasant to answer a coworker's question. A few times a year I'm working on something so complicated I need to be uninterrupted for a few hours but that's rare, for me at least.