Why Is Light So Fast?

104 pointsposted 8 hours ago
by paulpauper

71 Comments

AndrewOMartin

7 hours ago

This article mentions that the speed of light seems fast to humans living daily lives, but is not so fast on an astronomical scale.

The best demonstration of this I've ever seen is on "If the Moon Were Only 1 Pixel - A tediously accurate map of the solar system" [1].

If you've not seen it before, I recommend opening it, using your mouse wheel to scroll from the beginning (near the Sun) to Earth. It should take about a minute, but there's some commentary on the way. Then, to save your mouse and your finger some work, try clicking the icon in the bottom right hand corner to auto-scroll the map at the speed of light.

[1] https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem....

steve_adams_86

28 minutes ago

This was awesome. It's strange to know that I already understood this (conceptually at least), yet seeing how slow it really is at this scale is confusing. Maybe that's not quite the right word. It makes my brain pause and go "that can't be right", but... It's right.

Brains are bad at these scales. Maybe mine is worse than average. I can't fully believe how impossibly far away so many things truly are.

jzl

7 hours ago

I’ll steal a line from a superb YouTube physics channel (Arvin Ash): it’s not the speed of light, it’s the speed of causality. And the universe must have a finite speed of causality. Without even getting into math and physics, you can intuitively understand how infinitely fast causality would prevent time, and therefore everything else we know, from being possible.

cypherpunks01

6 hours ago

Yes, I was often very confused as to why the speed of light shows up everywhere, until it was reframed for me in this way. The fact that light travels at the same speed regardless of your frame of reference becomes a little less mystifying.

It feels more intuitive to me when thinking about it as causality always unfolding around you at the same speed, no matter your own frame.

The constant c was not named for causality, but it is a nice coincidence.

JdeBP

7 hours ago

It's not just Arvin Ash. That's actually fairly common terminology amongst physics educators nowadays. For starters: You'll find a lot of physics YouTube channels that say "speed of causality". It has even started to make its way into the astrophysics and physics textbooks in the last couple of years.

griffzhowl

an hour ago

Landau & Lifshitz, in their (classic) book on The Classical Theory of Fields, begin with a section called "Velocity of propagation of interaction".

jzl

3 hours ago

Interesting thanks. I hadn’t seen it elsewhere myself but I could see how it’s taken off. OP’s article almost gets there, but never says that specifically. Rather it says “c is not a property of light, it’s a property of the universe.”

Jsebast24

6 hours ago

Einstein was not talking about light in his SR and GR theories. He was talking about the "speed" of light. As simple as that is, took me a long time to get it.

jerb

2 hours ago

Thanks, I’ve never heard this and it’s quite profound. It’s always bothered me that there even is a top speed, and further that mass becomes infinite as it’s approached. But “speed of causality” makes these less strange.

dyauspitr

41 minutes ago

Why does speed of causality make it any better? It’s still an arbitrary limit that’s even more abstract and intangible than speed.

bloopernova

25 minutes ago

"Light travels at the speed of causality". Why does light have that behaviour?

aezart

15 minutes ago

Because it has no mass.

verzali

6 hours ago

The question seems to me not why there is a speed of causality, but why the speed has this particular number. And it's not clear we know why that is, any more than we know why the proton mass is about 1836 times greater than the electron mass.

JdeBP

6 hours ago

It's difficult to say that it has any given number, since our measurement units for both time and space are derived from it (via a short detour to the size of Terra, in the 18th century). It can have any finite number you like, just adjust the metre and second to match.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbGxXyqlhbU (FloatHeadPhysics on this)

One physics convention just sets its value to 1. All of those Minkowsky diagrams that we see are measured in light seconds on the space axis, in order to make c have the value of 1 space unit per time unit; so all of the graphical sheep, spaceships, cats, people, torches and stuff that are placed upon them are very much not to scale. (-:

jzl

3 hours ago

Search YouTube for “universe fine tuning.” Then come back here in a few years when you’ve gotten through everything. :)

Jsebast24

6 hours ago

If the speed of causality were to suddenly change by whatever factor, would we notice it?

shadowgovt

an hour ago

> Without even getting into math and physics, you can intuitively understand how infinitely fast causality would prevent time, and therefore everything else we know, from being possible.

Can you unbox this a little? I think I may just have Friday brain, but I'm having some difficulty convincing myself in the moment that infinite-speed causality development would prevent time.

woopsn

22 minutes ago

A system in which information is communicated instantly will quickly reach equilibrium, after which there is nothing left for any part to communicate to another. Eg diffusion of heat eventually results in a temperature distribution in which there is no longer a flow of heat.

jprete

7 hours ago

And the other half of this is that brains are extremely complicated casual chains. Causality can traverse the diameter of the brain something like 10^8 times in the period it takes for light to be perceived.

nick3443

6 hours ago

Makes you wonder if neutron flux in a bomb during supercriticality becomes self aware for a short moment.

jmyeet

6 hours ago

So this seems like a better definition until you run into a problem, which you do pretty quickly: "casuality" isn't the easiest thing to define.

The best definition I think I've seen is to view the universe as a partially ordered set of events, meaning that you can only order events (in time) if they're within each other's cones of causality. Outside of that you cannot say which happened first. That's the partially ordered part.

But even that is incomplete and arguably even self-referential. What's a "cone of causality" (without relying on causality)?

Also, there's the issue of what exactly time is and whether events are time-symmetric or not. Many physicists seem to view time as an emergent rather than fundamental property of our Universe.

cypherpunks01

6 hours ago

Causality is *bangs hammer on bell*

Time is a relationship between clocks.. beyond that, yes, it's hard to say exactly.

Time seems to be what prevents everything from happening at once.

Animats

7 hours ago

Part 2: [1]

It's kind of an anthropic principle argument.[1] If the fundamental constants had substantially different values, the resulting universe would be boring. All the mass collapsed into one black hole, or evenly distributed as fundamental particles. Or atoms don't work. Or stars don't work.

This leads to the usual problems - many-worlds theory, gods, etc. Strassler hasn't gone there, but others have.

[1] https://profmattstrassler.com/2024/10/03/why-is-the-speed-of...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

JdeBP

4 hours ago

It also kind of is not, inasmuch as it doesn't argue that there's the possibility of a universe where a "slower" speed of light (whatever that might mean) would not permit the existence of humans. It merely argues that the speeds of the human-centric world have to be small fractions of c, whatever value c is, by dint of how the macroscopic relates to the subatomic.

In natural units, in all such theoretical universes, c is 1; and all that this argument really states is that humans and similar atom-based things have to move at very small fractions of 1.

kibwen

2 hours ago

> In natural units, in all such theoretical universes, c is 1

I think this could be an instance of falling prey to the same sort of assumptions that the anthropic principle is intended to expose. For example, imagine theoretical universes where the speed of light is non-constant, or varies depending on where you are, or changes over time, etc.

ithkuil

2 hours ago

I.e. it's not that light it's fast but rather it's us who are slow

p4bl0

2 hours ago

EDIT: Sorry I came back from the article to say this before reading the comments here… I should have, the top comment is already saying the exact same thing!

The speed of light isn't that fast. The website "the moon is one pixel" is a webpage where our solar system is represented at scale if our moon were 1px in diameter : https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem....

You can scroll through it. It's so long to go from one planet to another. So much empty space.

At some point you're tempted to click on the C button which you see on the bottom right of the page. Speed of light! Surely that will autoscroll fast! … Nope, to scale, the speed of light is waaaay slower than your scrolling was! And then you realize, at the size of the universe, how even light isn't that fast.

FredPret

an hour ago

If I had to write a “game of life” simulation that simultaneously calculated the effects of all events at each point in a 3D matrix over time, I would:

- make the matrix as rough as possible while still enabling interesting events (ie, try and maximize the Planck length)

- make the maximum speed at which events propagate across the matrix as slow as possible to save the CPU (ie, try to minimize the speed of light)

- limit the size of the simulated universe

But our Planck length is tiny and the universe is probably humonguous unless we’re being deliberately deceived by This Simulators.

So despite the suspicions aroused by the slow speed of light, we might live in the mother / “real” universe after all.

hoerensagen

an hour ago

I think you might have the same misconception about the planck length that I had:

"The Planck length does not have any precise physical significance, and it is a common misconception that it is the inherent “pixel size” or smallest possible length of the universe.[1] If a length smaller than this is used in any measurement, then it has a chance of being wrong due to quantum uncertainty.[2]"

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length#:~:text=Th....

fluoridation

an hour ago

>make the maximum speed at which events propagate across the matrix as slow as possible to save the CPU

How would that save CPU time?

The Game of Life does have a maximum speed of propagation of causality, but it's not designed in, it's just a consequence of the basic rules that define the simulation.

PaulHoule

7 hours ago

Our energy scale is set by the energy scale of chemistry. When you run it is powered by chemistry. Chemical rockets are powered by chemistry.

Hypothetically you could go faster if you used fission or fusion energy but practically the chemical bonds get in the way. Even

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket

is limited by the strength of chemical bonds of the reactor so it gets a factor of 2 or 3 or so on exhaust velocity compared to a chemical rocket.

api

7 hours ago

This is why somewhat realistic high-power fusion rockets like those portrayed in The Expanse require magnetic nozzles. The fusion plasma would never come into contact with the material the engine is made of or it would melt.

We could build a decent fusion pulse drive today if we had higher temperature more compact superconductors and super-efficient compact lasers that could fit in a spacecraft and ignite a strongly net-positive inertial confinement fusion pulse.

Our superconductors are almost good enough, but our high-power lasers are way too inefficient and bulky. We can't even make economically viable ICF on Earth with current lasers.

PaulHoule

6 hours ago

D + He3 and H + B are attractive precisely because the product is entirely charged particles that you can catch with such a magnetic nozzle. D + T is easier to ignite, but releases a lot of energy in neutron kinetic energy which you need to absorb in some material which lowers the temperature. D + D is the most common fuel on outer solar system and interstellar bodies but it also releases neutrons and might be most valuable in an energy system in that it products He3 and T some of which could be separated from the plasma and used to fuel reactors that are either aneutronic or low ignition energy.

whatshisface

3 hours ago

The argument given in part 2 (that the strength of nuclear forces compared to electric forces make nuclei very heavy relative to the energies that would rip their chemistry apart) does not make a lot of sense in the context of the fact that binding energy reduces the mass of bound states. For example, 56Fe is lighter than 26 protons and 30 neutrons.

The ratio of the Hydrogen atom's ground state electron binding energy to the electron's mass-energy is one half the fine structure constant squared. That implies the nuclear forces don't have much to do with it - electromagnetism is simply, and dimensionlessly (i.e. independently of any arbitrary units or scales), a weak force.

chongli

7 hours ago

The speed of light is not fast. It's really, really slow! That is, slow relative to the size of the universe and the timespan of the universe, relative to human scales of size and timespan.

Humans can travel around the world (our domain) in a matter of hours (on rockets, our fastest mode of travel thus far). Similarly, the fastest waves can cross the ocean in a matter of hours. Light, on the other hand, takes billions of years to cross the visible universe. It's downright glacial at those scales!

JdeBP

7 hours ago

Yes, it takes forever to get anywhere at Warp 9. (-:

More seriously: Your very point is already made near to the beginning of the headlined article, in the book quote. You might want to read beyond the headline question, otherwise you're just repeating what the article already says.

chongli

6 hours ago

I did read the article and it is not making the same point I’m making. It takes the position that humans are extremely slow, relative to the speed of light. I’m taking a different position: that humans are extremely fast, relative to the domain in which we operate (the earth, our cities, our neighbourhoods, our households).

alex_young

6 hours ago

It’s all a matter of perspective.

If you were to travel at nearly the speed of light, you could cross the universe in a matter of minutes. Of course an external viewer on say Earth would disagree and say it took billions of years, but who’s counting?

scientator

6 hours ago

Actually, you couldn't cross it in a matter of minutes. In fact, you would never even reach the edge of the visible universe. This is because the edge of the visible universe is expanding away from us at faster than the speed of light.

shiandow

6 hours ago

The size and age of the visible universe aren't that different in size though. I mean, they would have to be, the only reason they differ at all is because the universe expands.

Meanwhile we measure time in hundreds of millions of meters and space in nanoseconds. Something causes humans to be slow.

Which isn't that surprising, life is basically a diffusion process gone haywire and while we're more efficient than just a big rock being pushed by small particles we still rely on statistical physics to push molecules around and it takes a while for those statistics to average out.

A_D_E_P_T

7 hours ago

> Light, on the other hand, takes billions of years to cross the visible universe

Right, and that's just the visible universe. The full extent of the universe is much larger -- I think that the most cautious lower bound estimate is that it's 250x larger. It could be 10^10x larger, or even infinite/unbounded. In such a vastness, the speed limits for light and baryonic matter are perplexingly slow.

Mistletoe

7 hours ago

Are galaxies and stuff out in that 250x or is it just empty space?

osigurdson

7 hours ago

If photo started a stopwatch and proceeded to travel 100T light years, the stopwatch would still read zero. That is pretty fast imo. It all depends on perspective.

marcosdumay

6 hours ago

> Light, on the other hand, takes billions of years to cross the visible universe.

Well... That's to be expected. It's right there on the definition.

cpsempek

6 hours ago

on first glance it seems like an interesting take, but then you realize (as someone else already pointed out) that the fastest thing in the universe is not fast, and therefore nothing is fast? a little more thought should make you realize this is a poorly formed take. Also, worth repeating, please read the article before posting. It may be that your insight or critique is present and discussed in the article already.

dimitrios1

6 hours ago

I get what you are saying at, but viewed in a another way, you just said that the fastest thing in the universe is really slow.

jmyeet

6 hours ago

So this touches on the anthropic principle, which is to say that if the Universe (and the constants within it) were other than what they were, we wouldn't be able to exist to contemplate it.

The speed of light being "slow" in cosmic terms is almost necessary for our existence in that we need a relatively long period of relative stability in order to evolve into sentient life. And that becomes a whole lot harder if, say, the Milky Way was only one light day across.

chongli

5 hours ago

I think in the past I would’ve readily accepted this explanation but now it seems to me like a just-so story.

Bacteria can exhibit doubling times on the scale of tens of minutes. We know of trees that live for thousands of years.

On the other hand, we know of chemical reactions that can propagate significantly faster that the speed of sound (high explosives) and nuclear reactions that propagate even faster that this. At the other end of the scale, we have mildly radioactive elements with half-lives measured in billions of years.

This is all to say that everything is relative and no matter what constants you choose for the universe, they’re going to seem arbitrary.

MarkusWandel

6 hours ago

Light isn't that fast. It only goes about a foot per nanosecond. It can be fun to work out for people how many bits are in a piece of cable at any moment, and that's assuming electrical information in a cable travels as fast, which it doesn't.

A real demo is to talk via VOIP with someone on a satellite internet connection. The old, geostationary satellite kind. It takes so long for the audio to get there and back that you have to practically say "over" when you're done talking.

dboreham

an hour ago

As fast as the GPUs running the simulation.

goatmanbah

2 hours ago

Better to ask why light is so slow...

jcd000

2 hours ago

That was a nice read.

shadowgovt

an hour ago

This is a very good author. "What's a Proton, Anyway?" is also both educational and entertaining [https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/largehadron...].

"Ok, then, what’s a hydrogen atom?

It is the simplest example of what physicists call a “bound state” — the word “state” basically just meaning a thing that hangs around for a while, and the word “bound” meaning that it has components that are bound to each other, as spouses are bound in marriage. In fact, the image of a married couple, especially one with one spouse weighing a lot more than the other, is probably the one you want."

idunnoman1222

7 hours ago

The speed of light is in its Goldilocks zone. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

greenhearth

5 hours ago

We are trying to speed everything up all the time and speed is seen as a virtue and something desirable. Could it be that we are trying subconsciously on a collective scale to get close to the natural state of the universe?

jacknews

7 hours ago

But why mv^2 ?

Is the universe 2D?

And it's E=mc^2 because the only 'consensus' value in the universe is c? Why is that? And so the 'mass' (whatever that is) must be moving at the speed of light for the equation to make sense, even though it's stationary?

The blogs demonstrate great factual knowledge and 'mastery', but don't really explain anything IMHO

af3d

5 hours ago

If you break up "mv^2" into its constituent dimensions you get m(d/t)^2 = m(d^2)(t^-2). Now the so-called kinetic energy of the object only "manifests itself" whenever there is a change in velocity of the object in question. Well, the derivative of velocity is an acceleration, so the object in acceleration would be represented as mdt^-2, aka "a force". Hence the energy of the system is simply that force acting over some distance d.

As to the internal/intrinsic energy of a given object, think of it as "hidden potential energy". It is essentially the energy that was required to turn photons into the matter that you, and I, and everything else are made of! The equation itself is mc^2 simply because that is what you get when you rearrange and simplify the experimentally-verified equations which it was drawn from. Likewise, for c is nothing more than the measured value of the speed of light in vacuum for any observer. Of course the choice of units is completely arbitrary. Whether you state it in miles per hour, kilometers per second, or whatever, the ratio remains constant.

pharrington

3 hours ago

The mv^2 isn't a geometrical property - it's because the kinetic energy can also be thought of as the integral of an object's momentum with respect to time.

prerok

6 hours ago

Well, depends on your viewpoint, I guess. When you really get into the details, it turns out we don't "really understand" anything.

We are just making more and more detailed observations and then creating mathematical models of these behaviors. For example, we observe that space is curved around mass. We can model that and it helps us understand what's going on, so it's useful.

We don't, however, understand what exactly is curved and what is this empty space that curves.

nyc111

7 hours ago

I was reading this article carefully. I noticed that he uses the word "stationary" to mean both "absolutely stationary" and "relatively at rest". The reasoning in this article is based on conflating and mixing the two meanings. So for instance when he writes "photons are always in motion" [1] he assumes that there are objects that are not always in motion, that is, they are in absolute rest. But he also writes "specifically its 'rest mass' m, which is the mass as measured by an observer who is stationary relative to the object." In this quote, he defines the word "stationary" as relative rest.

This rhetorical trick is so common in physics, that's why I wanted to mention it. The trick is to define the same word twice with its opposite meanings and use the word with both meanings sometimes even in the same sentence. I wonder what is the name of this trick in logic.

[1] This quote is from a different articla: https://profmattstrassler.com/waves-in-an-impossible-sea/wav...

elashri

7 hours ago

It is not a fallacy. In special relativity the important concept is the frame of reference. For photons there is not no inertial frame of reference where photon will be stationary (relative or absolute means nothing actually).

The whole concept of measurement (which you will need to describe something as stationary) depends on an observer travelling at speed velocity less than speed of light. If you Try to assign a inertial frame of reference to a photon you will break laws of special relativity

- photons always travel in speed of light from perspective of any inertial observer whether it is moving or at rest (verified by experiment)

- relativity prohibited mass less particles (like photon) to be stationary.

E = mc^2 doesn't apply in photon and apply only on stationary objects. The complete equation is

E^2 = (p^2 c^2) + (m c^2)^2

Where m is the rest mass. In photon case the second terms vanishes and the energy is merely the first term.

-Time and space behave differently for photons. In relativity, time dilation and length contraction become extreme at light speed. A photon does not experience the passage of time in the way objects with mass do. Therefore, trying to define a reference frame for a photon would lead to contradictions in our understanding of spacetime.

So in general it doesn't mean much absolute vs relative on photon case.

thfuran

7 hours ago

There is no absolute reference frame that would distinguish "absolutely stationary", as you call it, from "relatively at rest". There is only relative motion. Photons are "always in motion" in that there does not and cannot exist any massive object with respect to which a photon is at rest.

jerf

6 hours ago

I do not know where I first saw it, but I saw someone observe that the shocking thing about Einstein's theory of relativity is not that everything is relative; that was understood reasonably well for a long time before him. What is shocking is that the speed of light in a vacuum, or the speed of causality, is a constant. You can derive huge swathes of relativity from that fact alone.

As a result, of all the speeds, when discussing the speed of light (which conventionally means "in a vacuum" unless otherwise mentioned), you can in fact ignore the question of reference frame, with the exception of you don't want to use a reference frame itself moving at the speed of light. But other than that, an article exclusively confining itself to the discussion of the speed of light in fact doesn't need to worry itself about the relativity of reference frames. For that speed alone, you can't level the complaint against it that it ignores the issue of different frames, because it uniquely doesn't matter.

(Relatedly: It is frequently given as the reason you can't reach or exceed the speed of light is some stuff about masses rising. While mathematically true in its own way, I think there's a cleaner reason to explain why you can't reach or exceed it, which is that you can't even get closer to it. No matter what you do, the speed of light is c. You accelerate to a thousand miles a second in some direction, and how much closer are you to c? The answer is, none. Light continues fleeing from you, in all directions, at c. There is no "get really close to c somehow and then just push yourself over really hard" because there is no "get close to c" in the first place. No matter how hard you accelerate, in what direction, in what order, in what manner, you not only can't get "close" to c, you can't even get closer. For similar reasons, in this paragraph, I don't need to qualify in which reference frame you go a thousand miles per second different than before, because it doesn't matter for c. You can't even get slightly closer to it, let alone "exceed" it somehow. It is an absolute.)

kccqzy

7 hours ago

I read the same article and I didn't find "absolutely stationary" in the article. My physics is rusty but even from my recollection of high school physics there is no such thing. It's clear that the word stationary means zero velocity, and first year high school physics taught that any measurement of velocity must be done in a reference frame. The idea that a photon is always in motion is true regardless of which reference frame you pick; it does not imply there are objects that are in absolute rest.