8bitsrule
14 minutes ago
Certainly, apart from light and water and gasses, plants may require certain physical soil properties and nutrients, and possibly other lifeforms to thrive.
14 minutes ago
Certainly, apart from light and water and gasses, plants may require certain physical soil properties and nutrients, and possibly other lifeforms to thrive.
13 hours ago
Is the radiation not similar to the one you get in space? seems like that would be a cheaper place to test the effects of radiation.
13 hours ago
They're also testing the effects of reduced gravity.
13 hours ago
from the article:
> Growing plants on the ISS is a complex business, and Porterfield says a chief concern is that plant roots depend on gravity to draw water.
So while the radiation might be similar (I'm not sure), other variables are different.
12 hours ago
I’m sure they have considered this and/or doing it already but you’d only need a small centrifuge to simulate gravity for an experiment.
12 hours ago
A small centrifuge won't work; you get a strong coriolis effect. A large centrifuge could, but the ISS doesn't have one of those. It would need to be huge to be absolutely sure your data is accurate.
6 hours ago
Plant roots don’t need gravity to draw water! Plants use evaporation and the tensile strength of water (yes, really!) to draw water up against gravity.
3 hours ago
While that is true, plant roots and stems use gravity to know in which direction to grow (roots down and stems up), so that will cause problems in space.
NASA has succeeded to grow some plants on the ISS, by making them grow towards a source of light (i.e. LEDs), but until now this has worked only for some very low-growing plants, like lettuce and some varieties of cabbage, not for plants with deep roots and high stems.
It should be much easier to grow algae in the absence of gravity, but those are not as tasty as terrestrial plants.
13 hours ago
How much energy would be required to provide a localized magnetosphere to protect the garden from cosmic rays?
12 hours ago
When people think of radiation protection, they think of the magnetosphere. But they really need to be thinking of the atmosphere. There's a reason traveling on a plane gets you a higher dose of radiation and it's not a weaker magnetosphere.
12 hours ago
There will never, ever be such atmosphere on Moon as its on Earth. Too low gravity for example, solar winds would scrub it pretty fast even if you would somehow create it 100% with a snap of fingers.
Its nice dreaming about options but this aint realistic.
15 minutes ago
We are only talking about "fast" relative to normal planetary timescales.
My understanding is that it would still take hundreds of years for the solar wind to strip away the atmosphere. If a civilisation had the technology to quickly put an atmosphere on the moon, it has the technology to continually replenish the atmosphere as long as that civilisation lasts.
It would never be practical (or a good idea) but a post-scarcity society could pull it off as a vanity project.
12 hours ago
Cover your garden with a few dozen meters of rock. In fact, build your base in a cave.
10 hours ago
13 hours ago
How tolerant are plants to cosmic rays?
13 hours ago
This is what the test covered in the article is set to discover.
13 hours ago
Seems like solar could easily supply?
13 hours ago
Plants grow in radioactive soil around Chernobyl just fine though.
7 hours ago
Those radiation liking mushrooms could be an interesting test for the next batch of plants to the moon. :)
13 hours ago
All we need is a bunch of potatoes, but don't figure to have a healthy stock of ketchup on board.
9 hours ago
BizarroLand wins the award for getting the joke (reference to the movie "The Martian"). Please forgive my taste for very nuanced humor. :-)
13 hours ago
Potatoes aren't enough by themselves, you need dairy to hit all the nutritional requirements.
11 hours ago
you still haven't properly implemented nachos.
12 hours ago
Why do you think so?
12 hours ago
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/potato-butter-diet/
Could keep you alive long enough but eventually you'd want some other nutrients.
11 hours ago
Maybe there's a joke here that I'm not aware of, but my question was mostly why they think dairy is necessary. I do believe that potatoes isn't enough, but you don't need dairy products.
9 hours ago
> you don't need dairy products.
You generally need animal products for B12, but you can use supplements, I think. B12 deficiency can take a year or more to manifest severe symptoms.
10 hours ago
10 hours ago
In the movie "The Martian" Matt Damon grew potatoes on Mars. Lived off of them and ketchup for a long time, and the ketchup ran out.
9 hours ago
lol I wondered how long it would be before someone got it
7 hours ago
14 hours ago
This is cool. I look forward to seeing the results of this experiment. In case you were curious, this is routinely done on the ISS [1] so I don't expect low-g on the Moon to be an issue. The one issue is radiation (which is mentioned) because the Moon is exposed to this in a way the ISS isn't (thanks to the Van Allen belt).
Should this become necessary however, it won't even be an issue long-term. Why? Because you'd grow things underground. There's absolutely no reason to do anything above ground on the Moon. We have pretty strong evidence of ancient lava tubes so there's no need to excavate either.
Ideally, you'd seal a lava tube and put in air and you could live in it with the plants being natural oxygenators.
Long-term you'd probably want to see if you could manufacture growth medium on the Moon from available materials.
[1]: https://gardenculturemagazine.com/growing-hydroponics-in-spa...
13 hours ago
From the article, I believe the effects of the radiation are what's being tested. Which is an important thing to know if we want to put people on Mars as it also has a huge amount of radiation and food is heavy to transport.
If we can grow plants above ground, that can free up resources for an underground colony.
13 hours ago
> Why? Because you'd grow things underground. There's absolutely no reason to do anything above ground on the Moon
If you grow stuff on the surface and in the sun (with some imaginary window that let the good parts of the sun rays go through, without any of the bad stuff through), wouldn't that be at least slightly more energy efficient, compared to growing stuff underground with lots of strong lights?
13 hours ago
Yes, but it requires said imaginary window.
Underground just requires LEDs and solar panels. Both of which we can make quite cheaply.
13 hours ago
The problem with the Moon is the 28 Earth day day/night cycle. It takes the Moon from blistering heat (~250F) to bone-chilling cold (-200F) so anything on the surface has both a cooling problem and a heating problem.
There's no atmosphere so the only way to get rid of heat is to irradiate it away into space or pump it away and do the same thing. Likewise, heating is a big problem and an energy waster as you're irradiating away heat.
Going underground just avoids the heating problem, the cooling problem and the radiation problem. It also avoids the issue of meteor impacts on the surface. Those craters came from somewhere.
Excavation is expensive but it depends on what you're working with. Is it loose? is it hard rock? I don't think we have good knowledge of the geology of the Moon because we'd have to go there and start drilling cores to find out. The presence of ancient lava probably means we'd be dealing with some hard stones too like basalt or granite. But that's just a guess.
Lava tubes, if sufficiently large, just solve so many of these problems.
It's just easier to collect power and produce the light you want to grow somethin gunderground.
11 hours ago
I thought there are some regions in the North Pole that are constantly illuminated. Presumably the temperature is significantly more stable in those regions.
13 hours ago
> There's absolutely no reason to do anything above ground on the Moon
Is there a reason to do anything below ground? We already aren't doing anything above ground.
13 hours ago
Radiation is a serious problem. It tears apart DNA & RNA. Blocking radiation takes lots of material, hence, underground.
13 hours ago
That's not a reason to do something below ground on the moon. It would be a reason not to do something above ground, which, as I noted, we already don't do.
10 hours ago
I've moved beyond not doing things on the moon. That's so passé. I'm already not doing things above ground (or below ground on Mars) and have no plans for the moons of Venus after that.
13 hours ago
> Ideally, you'd seal a lava tube and put in air and you could live in it with the plants being natural oxygenators.
We've tried that on earth and it doesn't really work. You need a lot of plants and a wide variety of plants.
Living on the moon is a fantasy. It won't happen in any of our lifetimes. Mars is an even greater fantasy.
13 hours ago
Here's a fun youtube video on just how much it'd take to survive on plant life alone. [1]
Spoilers: Can't be done without a huge amount of vegetation. Algae, on the other hand, can work, but it still takes a boat load of algae for just 1 person.
13 hours ago
> Because you'd grow things underground
Is the radiation close to normal light on earth, so that maybe fiber glass tubes could be used to route the light in a controlled manner into underground caves?
13 hours ago
> Ideally, you'd seal a lava tube and put in air and you could live in it with the plants being natural oxygenators.
There's a LOT of oxygen on the Moon (basically in every rock). There's effectively no carbon. If you want to grow plants there - you need to take carbon with you (probably in the form of coal you'll burn once there to generate the CO2 needed for plants).
1 person eats about 1000 kg of food per year, which is about 500 kg of carbon. If you grow plants in a yearly cycle you need to sent half a ton of coal for every colonist. The ones born on the Moon too.
10 hours ago
Those humans are also producing CO2 so it will have some self-sustainability. The 5% CO2 of human breath is a lot more than the ~0.04% in the atmosphere.
I have no idea how to calculate the steady state or what the losses would be.
12 hours ago
How hard would it be to find and de-orbit a carbonaceous asteroid or two?
14 hours ago
14 hours ago
I thought Musk said some time back that SpaceX was sending people to Mars next year. How did they not already know this?
13 hours ago
You can choose any year from the calendar, and there would be a Musk statement that says we'd be on Mars that year.
12 hours ago
You might as well ask a fortune teller instead of listening to what Musk has said
13 hours ago
Truth doesn't matter to him as long as it brings hype.
13 hours ago
Maybe he did, but not recently.
He posted this several days ago: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1837908705683059166
13 hours ago
5 unmanned mission in the 2026 launch window, manned mission to follow in 2028 if the unmanned are successful is the most recent statement (though some reports garbled that into all 6 happening by 2026.)
12 hours ago
I'm not saying 5 successful unmanned missions are impossible in 2 years, but I think Elon may have slightly underestimated the difficulty of the task. There is a lot of stuff left to develop still and very little time to do it.
Elon is not great at estimating how long tasks will take. He originally promised that full self driving would be complete by 2018.
11 hours ago
Note that its not so much five in two years as five in a narrow window that opens in two years; they’d be near-simultaneous missions, on whose success would depend the manned mission when the subsequent launch window opened.
But, yeah, Musk timelines are not something I would put a lot of faith in.
13 hours ago
"Next year" in Musk years means they have at least 6 years to get it right.
Snark aside, SpaceX may be thinking of MREs instead of growing food.
13 hours ago
I think he said an unmanned mission in two years and humans in 4 or 6 years.
13 hours ago
And you have to at least double any Musk time estimate.
13 hours ago
Vastly under-estimating the magnitude of the task is how the crazy things get done.
Christopher Columbus wasn't unique in believing the world was round, he was rather unique in his vast under-estimation of the distance to Asia. The only reason he survived is dumb luck that the Americas were about where he thought Asia was. All of his doubters were correct that he would die before reaching Asia.
Of course, this way, way far down the list of reasons not to take Christopher Columbus as a role model.
13 hours ago
Could SpaceX make a Starlink that revolves around the moon and could transmit imagery back to Earth?
12 hours ago
What you are describing is a satellite.
9 hours ago
Well, then there’s the beaming back to Earth. Maybe that’s easy…I wasn’t sure. Thx for the snark, tho.
11 hours ago
...and there have been a few satellites in lunar orbit, and even a private/commercial orbiter (capstone) recently https://www.advancedspace.com/missions/capstone/