FCC wants all phones unlocked in sixty days, AT&T and T-Mobile aren't so keen

48 pointsposted 13 hours ago
by miles

42 Comments

cogman10

6 hours ago

I support this move as hopefully it will kill off the practice of carrier specific OSes.

The last carrier phone I bought was a Samsung Galaxy 4 from T-Mobile. I got a total of 0 os updates out of it because T-Mobile never released a new version of the OS (even though Samsung did). They just abandoned the phone.

At this point the most important quality of a phone to me is active security updates, so I'll never buy one where a carrier can get in the way of protecting myself from zero day exploits.

mrpippy

an hour ago

I don’t think this will make any difference—SIM unlocking is totally separate from phone firmware

AzzyHN

35 minutes ago

It's not just carriers that enjoy locked phones. Currently, BestBuy (the 2nd largest electronics retailer in America, after Amazon) can only sell unlocked iPhones that are at least a year old. If you want a shiny new iPhone 16 Pro that's unlocked, you have to purchase it from Apple directly.

jalk

11 hours ago

Can't the operators just sell unlocked phones with monthly installments instead? The installment plan will then include free service for some amount of data/minutes. If the user chooses to switch operator, they are still bound by the installment contract to pay off the phone.

acdha

7 hours ago

That’s how it should work. My understanding is that the carriers (probably correctly) assume that there are more people who will buy a cool phone if they don’t think about it as a short term loan – and then keep paying the same price after the phone is paid off. If they had to say “$900 in 24 payments of $50” more people would decide they don’t need the “Pro” model and the carriers would be forced to compete with the banks on financing terms.

colejohnson66

2 hours ago

I’ve even seen ones where the loan is “backwards”, and they’re getting more common - you pay full price up front and they give you statement credits each month!

acdha

an hour ago

How did we live like animals in the dark era before such innovative financial products?

lbourdages

7 hours ago

That is how it works in Canada now. If you cancel your contract, you have to pay the remaining balance immediately. No fees, just the remainder.

Marsymars

4 hours ago

Well, kinda. Carriers can work around that by marking up the retail price so e.g. you have a $480 phone that the carrier sells for $700, or lets you buy for $20/m over a 24-month term with a promise to clear the $220 balance if you make it to the end of the term, so it's effectively a penalty if you cancel early.

cogman10

6 hours ago

The point is to lock the user into a contract with the carrier. By binding the phone to there service they make it unlikely that a user will switch providers as that would need a new phone while still paying off the old phone.

That's why they'll offer these phones at low or no interest plans, so they can pull in the $50/month subscription for the years that the phone is being paid off.

ImPostingOnHN

5 hours ago

What's the difference between giving away a $1200 phone in exchange for a 2-year contract which costs $50 extra per month,

compared to a plan which costs $50 less per month, and a BNPL plan attached to the carrier which costs $50 per month?

FireBeyond

4 hours ago

> What's the difference between giving away a $1200 phone in exchange for a 2-year contract which costs $50 extra per month

That phone is generally not given away - the only phones "given away" are generally low end. $1200 flagship phones come at the cost of a contract on the line AND a monthly payment for the device that pays for it in full.

RHSeeger

3 hours ago

The last 3 phones I purchased, it was a choice between

- plan + buying new phone + no contract

- plan + phone "free with plan" + increase in plan cost because of phone + 2 year contract

For one pone, the first was a clear winner. For another, it was slightly cheaper to get it with the plan (2nd option). For the last (iphone) it was the second option, but there was no increase in plan because of it.

So, the "cost" of the phone can vary a lot, and taking the time to figure it out is well worth it.

ImPostingOnHN

an hour ago

If the monthly payment pays for the device in full, what's the problem with a customer ending the service contract while continuing the monthly payments?

If the monthly payment doesn't pay for it in full, why not just make the monthly device payments $n more, and the cellular service payments $n less? That way you don't need to worry if the service plan is cancelled, because the device payments would still be due (or a lump sum payment would be due).

486sx33

10 hours ago

Yes, but let’s just say you got a 1200 device and only made the first two payments… jump to another carrier and abandon the one with the finance plan. What’s the recourse for the carrier?

happymellon

8 hours ago

I bought a car, but then decided to not make the repayments.

What's the recourse for the lender?

RHSeeger

3 hours ago

To be fair, car sellers have also started things like being able to brick your car if you're behind on payments. Or, for the up and coming ones, have the car just drive itself back to the dealer (Ford).

toast0

4 hours ago

Credit reporting and collections.

There's a reason carriers pull credit reports for post paid accounts and 'free' phone promos right?

Although, personally, I prefer to be on the prepaid side of the carrier. I'm not getting a promotional phone, and I'm not paying for it in my monthly rate, so if my phone works for more than two years, I'm saving money. And I don't really need to use secret handshake financing... I'd rather pay $17/month for my plan and pay for a phone when I need it.

That said, T-Mobile tried being the 'uncarrier' and charging fairer prices for service and financing phones directly, and it must not have worked as well as carrier norms because they reverted to secret handshake financing.

Shakahs

5 hours ago

Currently the carrier will publish the phone's IMEI to a central blacklist, so the phone can't be used with any carrier that subscribes to the blacklist. Also iPhones can be activation blocked via Apple, which is entirely independent of the IMEI block done by carriers.

ssl-3

10 hours ago

Small claims court? Inability for the debtor to get a loan for even another phone (or a used car or whatever) for a period of time?

It's messy and expensive, but perhaps it should be messy and expensive.

JumpCrisscross

7 hours ago

> jump to another carrier and abandon the one with the finance plan. What’s the recourse for the carrier?

Subprime auto lenders use “electronic devices to remotely shut down vehicles” [1].

Carriers could install remote management profiles on phones financed for subprime borrowers. If a borrower defaults, the loan is sold to a collector and phone erased and put in lost mode.

It isn’t pleasant. But neither is being locked into a phone plan you don’t want.

[1] https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2017/03/14/car-lenders-...

user

5 hours ago

[deleted]

lotsofpulp

9 hours ago

The same recourse any other lender has for a borrower that defaults.

seba_dos1

3 hours ago

Wow, I forgot SIM locks were still a thing. Here in the EU this has been dealt with like a decade ago or so.

Kiboneu

8 hours ago

My friend bought an android phone from AT&T. Recently she unlocked it, and she was able to use other sim cards, but the phone was still branded with the AT&T logo and loaded with its software. The phone can’t make any over the air updates because it relies in AT&T to fetch carrier specific updates… which fails when she switches providers.

I’m torn because it’s either flash unofficial firmware from the internet or live without security updates until she buys a new phone, both of these undesirable from a security perspective. The phone was just released 4 years ago and it is in good shape; but all that flies out the window because of this and related stupid practices.

I’m not sure if that is also addressed.

NewJazz

6 hours ago

IMO allowing OTA updates to go through through the mobile provider was Android's biggest mistake. Their reputation and platform integrity has been irreparably damaged because of it.

wh0knows

5 hours ago

This is pure speculation, but is it possible that Android never would have been successful (or as successful) if they did not bow to the carriers? By taking carrier-friendly positions they built a symbiotic relationship that resulted in the carriers being happy to promote their phones.

shevis

6 hours ago

In what world does disallowing blatantly anticompetitive behavior constitute a significant economic change?

egberts1

7 hours ago

Mmmmm, is the intent to unlock phones made to be more fair toward the ultimate end-user who lacked the cybersecurity know-hows to defend themselves at greater cost to its phone integrity?

Or to the nation-states who need even easier access?

If I were an advanced nation state, protecting communication line would be more paramount than trying to get into it.

But what do I know.

gruez

6 hours ago

"unlocking" in this context means sim locking (ie. making the phone only work with SIM cards from a particular network), not bootloader or any other sort of locking.

shevis

6 hours ago

Tell me you didn’t read the article without telling me you didn’t read the article

op7

5 hours ago

I worked in the prepaid phone industry for 4 years so I have some insight on this. This is bad. The whole purpose of phones being locked for 6(now 12 at Mpcs) mo. is so that we are able to offer very decent phones to poor people who would otherwise not be able to afford the up front cost. Were talking about $200-500 phones being given away for completely FREE to new customers sold at a LOSS and we only HOPE to recover that money if they keep their service more than 6 months, for the $500 off iphones closer to 12. Every new prepaid customer who takes advantage of this-we are taking a massive gamble on wether or not this person will legitimately intend to pay their monthly bill, or if theyre just taking advantage of the initial subsidy and then cancelling service and selling the phones overseas or for parts. The industry consides this fraud. Frontline prepaid retailers already have to do some basic KYC on customers like checking IDs(which isnt a hard requirement) to make sure customers arent abusing the promos, because all it takes is a handful of abusers to cause serious economic harm to a particular stores which aleady operate on thin profit margins. If this change goes through expect prepaid/anonymous phones to go away(KYC and ID checking will kick into overdrive), people in poverty wont be able to get iPhones for $100 upfront anymore, expect hundreds more prepaid phone franchise stores to go out of business and thousands of people to lose their jobs, and for what? What is the benfit of this? So retail arbitragers can buy phones to export overseas at the expense of the American lower class even faster in 2 months rather than 6-12?

thisislife2

5 hours ago

> people in poverty wont be able to get iPhones for $100 upfront anymore

And that's good - those who are financially constrained shouldn't be getting (enticed) into debt-traps by buying a brand-new high-priced device when really cheaper alternatives are available. Note that the article points out that Verizon already unlocks all their phones after 60 days due to a previous agreement with the FCC. So this has already been "tested" in the marketplace and Verizon hasn't wound up this business model of payment plans. The article also points out the consumer benefit of this FCC policy - once Verizon unlocks its phone, their customers have more freedom to try other services through trial eSims, while customers of AT&T and T-Mobile can't because of their (longer duration) locked phones.

FireBeyond

4 hours ago

Not for nothing, but those devices are generally sold interest free.

There's no functional difference between "If you're poor, you should save $50/month for the next 2 years, and when you do that, maybe then you can get that $1200 phone", versus "You can pay $50/month for the next 2 years and get that $1200 phone now", other than bias against the "financially constrained".

thisislife2

2 hours ago

It's not "bias", but being financially prudent - when you are financially constrained, you don't need a $1200 phone nor do you need to subscribe to a $50/month plan when cheaper options are available. Depending on your budget, you can get a feature phone for around $50 or a smart phone for around $100, and opt for a prepaid plan (the cheapest of which starts from $15/month with limited data).

BenjiWiebe

2 hours ago

What happens when the $1200 phone breaks before it's paid off? Does the carrier replace it?

I prefer buying used phones so I don't have any experience with that...except the first phone I bought... I understood from Verizon that the phone was included in the plan. Turns out I owed $300 for a dumbphone at a time in my life where $300 was a lot more than I wanted to pay for a phone.

I replaced it with a used smartphone for $20 a year later.

mystified5016

5 hours ago

So your argument is that a cell carrier can't be profitable without entrapping poor people into long contracts with debt.

Therefore we must legally protect the rights of businesses to exploit people.

sp527

5 hours ago

This argument has so many holes you could drive a Cybertruck through it.

There are ample used phone markets selling iPhones and top-of-the-line Android devices (e.g. Back Market). No one needs to be on the latest and greatest. I still use an iPhone 13 and I have friends on phones as old as iPhone 11. None of us are part of the "American lower class". Smartphones are a highly mature technology and the improvements being made year on year are now vanishingly incremental, at best.

Further, there is no shortage of financing models available to American consumers. If anything, Buy Now Pay Later might be *too* available as an option.

ukoki

4 hours ago

You know people can finance just about any purchase right?

People buy cars on finance all the time without needing to buy their cars through BP and signing an exlusive gas purchasing agreement with them. There's no reason for the phone to be tied to the carrier.

Ekaros

29 minutes ago

Finland the operators sell phones, either fully up front or with even 0% financing. Then contract is entirely separate deal, it might have or not have commitment.

Might miss some "discounts", but it really is entirely workable and reasonable model.