tomhoward
13 hours ago
It's called "virtual interlining".
The startup I co-founded (Adioso - YC W09 [1]) tried to do it, including having discussions with a travel insurance provider about offering "layover protection" - so that if one leg was delayed causing you to miss your onward leg(s), your costs are covered. Kiwi.com does this now.
We worked on it from about 2008 till 2013 then basically gave up, as it was too hard to offer a service that customers could really love and trust. (It wasn't for nought; the technology we developed was valuable, and the company was able to rebrand and pivot and now does important work for airlines to optimise loads and fares [2], though I left when the rebrand/pivot happened).
The thing that makes it hard to do is it's basically impossible to get all the flight inventory, including fares and seat availability, that's complete and up-to-date enough to deliver a service that customers can trust.
The engineering challenge is one thing - solving a multi-dimensional travelling salesman problem (price and distance/duration) highly repetitively - but you can solve that with enough smart engineers and "compute", which ITA did in the early 2000s, and on a smaller scale, our team did a decade later.
But you could build the most beautiful routing engine the universe has ever seen, and still have a user experience that's kind-of garbage because the industry just keeps the flight inventory data so locked down.
These days there are APIs and feeds available from the major distribution platforms - Sabre, Amadeus and Travelport, but it's still not comprehensive. You often still need to negotiate individual agreements with major airlines in order to be able to publish and sell their fares. And even then, many of the low-cost airlines (which are often most of interest to travellers who want to find the cheapest route and deal with self-transfer) are not available through these distributors, and some, like Southwest, have blanket refused to be on 3rd party search sites, only starting to relax that position very recently and only with the dominant platform [3]. Kiwi.com has only recently come to a partnership agreement with Ryanair [4] after being in legal battle with them for years [5]. (I hate the thought of having to be at war with your most important partners).
Others have mentioned Skyscanner, which was always the closest to us in what we were each trying to offer (we talked briefly with them about being acquired by them).
Right from the beginning when we got funded for Adioso, my mind became fixated on the thought "if only you get every single flight in the world loaded into one big graph database, what could you do with it?", but it turned out to be a very big "if".
[1] https://techcrunch.com/2010/08/31/adioso/
[2] https://amadeus.com/en/blog/articles/creating-a-private-resa...
[3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffwhitmore/2024/05/25/southw...
[4] https://media.kiwi.com/company-news/kiwi-com-and-ryanair-ann...
[5] https://www.travolution.com/news/kiwi.com-celebrates-three-w...
nomilk
4 hours ago
> Kiwi.com does this now.
Sorta, the real pain point is if anything needs changing on any of your tickets, it's a total PITA. I value 'less hassle' more than I do saving 5-20% of the airfare. For me Kiwi (and other middlemen like it) are a hard 'No'.
scarface_74
an hour ago
This is true when going through any third party portal for either flights or hotels.
No reasonable amount of savings is enough to convince us to ever use a third party portal.
My wife and I travel a lot as a hobby - mostly domestically with one or two international trips a year - and something is statistically going to change between the time we book and the time we fly on at least one of our trips.
It’s a lot easier to make changes directly with the airline/hotel especially when you have status than going through a portal
Just last month we had a flight to Vegas + hotel over Labor Day that we changed at the last minute to go see my mother in law who had been taken to the hospital by our older (adult) son. We were able to change our flights to another city (ATL instead of LAS) as an even swap.
This was Delta airlines.
Then two hours later we found out she had Covid and decided against it and were able to call and change our flight back all without any change in fees and get our hotel reservation back.
Good luck doing that when booking through a portal.
piombisallow
2 hours ago
Is this the real Aviato?
tomhoward
an hour ago
Seems likely if you imagine the producers just looked at an alphabetically sorted list of YC companies for name ideas.
shalinmangar
an hour ago
I loved Adioso! I used it all the time to find great deals in Europe. Thank you for building it!
tomhoward
an hour ago
I love hearing this! Makes it all worth it. Thanks for sharing :)
spiffytech
6 hours ago
I enjoyed Adioso back in the day. Found lots of cheap flights.
tomhoward
5 hours ago
Great to hear! Thanks for saying so.
I still hope to rebuild it one day but only when I can do it as a passion project. You can’t make a living from a site like that.
zerr
10 minutes ago
Why not? People make a living from Amazon affiliation websites. Don't the flight companies have the similar programs?
tcgv
2 hours ago
The last few times I used Skyscanner, I was disappointed because their "database" was outdated. When I clicked on a flight from the search results, it took me to the airline's website, which then showed a higher price. Often, there's no official fare from the airline, and Skyscanner lists prices from third-party providers I don't really trust.
I'm finding Google Flights more reliable these days.
MichaelZuo
9 hours ago
Why would airlines even want penny pinching customers to snag the best deals via a third party?
At the very least it would make more sense to let their own frequent flyers snag such deals.
tomhoward
6 hours ago
It’s an ongoing tension. Direct bookings are ideal but are only adequate if your brand awareness and loyalty is strong, like AA and Southwest. To whatever extent that’s not the case, you need to be available via partners/agencies and on metasearch sites in order to be found.
Our pitch to airlines when we were trying to establish partnerships with them was that we could find flexible travelers to fill seats that would otherwise be empty, and we had unique ways of doing that (which is why the company was able to pivot to enterprise), but we weren’t strong enough for them to feel the need to partner with us (and they don’t want to help a small player grow into a big player).
Flight revenue optimization is an art and science at least as old as industry deregulation, and funnily enough is now something my old company is providing a lot of help with. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em as they say.
phreeza
6 hours ago
Same reason they offer deals in the first place, price discrimination and yield management.
NovemberWhiskey
2 hours ago
But that's exactly the opposite of what is happening - allowing third parties to construct itineraries that compete with the ones that are being sold by the airlines results in a competitor; not an enabler; for yield management purposes.
Ekaros
8 hours ago
One reason I could see is to keep perceived price level for the frequent flyers. If they don't see best deals they won't expect those. And the hardcore deal hunters are not loyal to you or your brand.
Giving frequent flyers very good deals make them expect them, thus not be so willing to pay "regular" price.
MichaelZuo
3 hours ago
They could easily position it as a reward for loyalty for FFs who spent more than $X in the last calendar year with them.
The loyalty reward in this case would be treating virtual interlining tickets as if they were an actual interlined ticket.
Ekaros
2 hours ago
Virtual interlining is really dangerous model for them and their brand. It basically means that they would be reliant on someone else without any guarantees in case there is delays or problems.
And with different alliances they already have fully functional interlining model. So trying to extend outside this is not beneficial for them.
scarface_74
42 minutes ago
Those flyers don’t care. Most frequent flyers are using other people’s money (business travelers) or are not price conscience.
We don’t even compare prices for domestic flights and we fly a lot on our own dime (15x-20x+ a year since mid 2021). We instinctively just book Delta where we have status and lounge access.
scarface_74
an hour ago
Once an airline schedules a flight, each additional passenger is 0 marginal cost.
Besides the people who have high status with an airline are usually price insensitive business travelers.
The people who aren’t penny pinching customers who do fly often on their own dime are either going to pay for business class or first class seats or are going to get auto upgrades for free once they book. At least that’s how it works on Delta.
They surely aren’t going to sully themselves by sitting in the “cattle class”.
For instance, Delta releases cheap economy seats to their partners like Virgin and KLM. I routinely book short flights between MCO (Orlando - current home) and ATL (former home) all of the time for 5500 points via KLM/AirFrance to fly Delta (cash price $230 one way) and to see my parents in small town south GA (MCO - ATL - ABY) for 8500 points (cash price one way $358).
The tickets that Delta releases to partners are the least desirable times and they take away even tho use three weeks before the flight because they can jack up prices.
As an example, there are at least 15 flights a day between MCO and ATL on Delta. Three of those flights may be available on KLM or Virgin
coffeebeqn
8 hours ago
To fill empty seats ? Still better than nothing
doctorpangloss
4 hours ago
People say this, and yet we see vacancy everywhere all the time.
recursive
3 hours ago
The last ~10 times I've flown have been completely maxed flights. I can't remember the last time I saw an open seat anywhere.
mattgreenrocks
2 hours ago
Yep, post-covid it seems like airlines are favoring fewer flights that are more packed. I don't fly a lot (couple times a year), but when I do, it's very rare to see a flight that is not at least 95% full.
Espressosaurus
an hour ago
Yeah, for the routes I've flown over the last 5-10 years, significant numbers of empty seats are very much the exception rather than the rule, and it got worse post-covid.
bluGill
3 hours ago
Eventually there just isn't someone who wants to go at any price, but the airplane still needs to fly.