kccqzy
16 hours ago
The author mentions HMAC at the end. I think HMAC is really an underrated technique. I remember reading Colin Percival's classic Cryptographic Right Answers[0] and saw a section about "symmetric signatures." I pondered to myself what scheme I could use for that before I looked at the answer: of course it's just HMAC. I feel like this is another perspective that ought to be more widely known: if you want something to be like a signature, but the two parties (or just a single party at different times) can share a key, HMAC really is the right answer. Things like, a server needs to cryptographically sign a cookie to prevent tempering: that's HMAC. Or a server needs to know an API request is coming from an expected client: that's also HMAC.
[0]: https://www.daemonology.net/blog/2009-06-11-cryptographic-ri...
loeg
14 hours ago
More generally, a MAC. You don't necessarily need one based on a hash.
(Unrelated) see also the more recent https://www.latacora.com/blog/2018/04/03/cryptographic-right...
notfed
12 hours ago
I'd also throw in that HMAC is overrated. It's a workaround for bad hash algorithms that are vulnerable to length-extension attacks.
If you're using a "good" hash algorithm, then MAC-ing is simple: hash over your key and message.
It's pretty weird that SHA-256 has been king for so long, when SHA-512/256 (which, as I've noticed people don't understand, means SHA-512 truncated to 256 bits) was there from the beginning and is immune from this attack.
Anyway, in general it's a pet peeve of mine that many people so often say "HMAC" when really they just mean MAC.
skrebbel
7 hours ago
> It's pretty weird that SHA-256 has been king for so long, when SHA-512/256 (which, as I've noticed people don't understand, means SHA-512 truncated to 256 bits) was there from the beginning and is immune from this attack.
A bit of a tangent, but I didn't know this, so thanks for pointing this out. It's insane to me that there's two SHA hash algorithms that result in a 256 bit string, named nearly identically, but the one is vulnerable to a length-extension attack but the other isn't. I had simply assumed that SHA-256 and SHA-512 are the exact same thing except the length of the result. Wouldn't anyone? The length of the result is right there in the name! I mean why does SHA-256 even exist when SHA-512/256 is what we should all use? Why does a single library implement an algorithm that everybody in crypto land, apparently (if you're right), already knew was broken from the start? Give the good one the short name and keep the bad one out of codebases! Come on! Crypto is hard but crypto people keep making it harder and I hate it.
dspillett
5 hours ago
> why does SHA-256 even exist when SHA-512/256 is what we should all use?
SHA-512 is more computationally costly so running that and truncating the result is slower than just running SHA-256. Where performance is key¹ and you have other protection in your protocol that mitigates extension issues, that could be a significant benefit.
IIRC SHA512 used 64-bit values throughout rather than 32 as used in SHA256, so it might actually be faster on software on modern 64-bit architectures, nullifying the above consideration on such platforms, but back when the SHA2 family were formally specified 64-bit processing was far far less common. Also if you have acceleration for SHA256 in hardware but not 512 that flips things back. Hardware support for SHA256 will be cheaper in silicon than SHA512.
----
[1] very low CPU power systems, or hashing en-mass on now powerful arrangements
NovemberWhiskey
4 hours ago
>SHA-512 is more computationally costly
In fact, as you suggested later, SHA-512 is actually much less computationally expensive on 64 bit machines - it has 25% more rounds, but you can do twice the number of bytes per round.
All other things being equal (which they seldom are), you will often see a significant speed improvement with SHA-512 vs. SHA-256 on larger payloads.
Of course, I immediately tried to test this with "openssl speed" on my M1 Mac and SHA-512 is 70% slower, so I guess there's some architectural optimization there.
mtndew4brkfst
4 hours ago
Can the algorithm benefit from SIMD/AVX512? Not helpful for ARM Macs, I have one too, but might be a contributing factor to lower adoption since those instructions aren't as widespread. First consumer chips in ~2017 and first AMD chips in ~2022.
NovemberWhiskey
3 hours ago
I did a quick check on a 2016-era Xeon E5 v4 (AVX2), and sha512 is much faster per openssl speed.
nmadden
9 hours ago
Yes and no. HMAC is very inefficient for short messages, but that inefficiency quickly vanishes into noise for anything over a kB or two. (HKDF and HMAC-DRBG are probably the worst offenders as they are always running HMAC on small inputs).
But, on the other hand, HMAC has repeatedly proven itself to be resilient to all kinds of attacks. I definitely didn’t mean any MAC when I recommended HMAC: eg I don’t think Poly1305 is a good general purpose MAC. PRF maybe, but sometimes you need the MAC to be committing too. Yes, some hash functions can be used with a simple prefix MAC, but then you need to list which specific hash functions to use (and most of those are not yet widely available).
kccqzy
13 hours ago
Ah yes of course in 2018 it's still HMAC.
JimDabell
13 hours ago
They published a followup to that article two months ago, and the correct answer in 2024 is still HMAC.
https://www.latacora.com/blog/2024/07/29/crypto-right-answer...
atoav
9 hours ago
One question I always wondered about with cookie signing is: Why not store the user and the cookie in a database and check against that when they try to present it to you? Performance reasons?
argulane
8 hours ago
It's mostly about performance. If you can store all the required info about the user inside the cookie then you can avoid a DB query roundtrip before sending a response.
Now that your cookie looks like this (probably also base64 encoded):
{"id": 42, "display_name": "John", "is_admin": false, "session_end_at":1726819411}
You don't have to hit the DB to display "Hi John" to the user and hide the jucy "Admin" panel. Without HMAC, an attacker could flip the "is_admin" boolean in the cookie.You could also create a cookie that is just random bytes
F2x8V0hExbWNMhYMCUqtMrdpSNQb9dwiSiUBId6T3jg
and then store it in a DB table with similar info but now you would have to query that table for each request. For small sites it doesn't matter much and if it becomes a problem you can quite easily move that info into a faster key-value store like Redis. And when Redis also becomes too slow you are forced to move to JSON Web Tokens (JWT) witch is just a more standardized base64 encoded json wrapped with HMAC to avoid querying a database for each request.But even if you are using random bytes as your session identifier, you should still wrap it in a HMAC so that you can drop invalid sessions early. Just for making it harder for someone to DDOS your DB.
jeroenhd
4 hours ago
This is how many (most?) session cookies work. Track the data on the backend, only send an identifier to the frontend.
The JWT and similar cookies exist for when you want to do scaling and such. You don't need much more than a user ID and a user name for many pages of a web application, your database may be in another continent, so you may as well store some variables in the client side. This has the added benefit of being able to put down as many frontends as you may need, integrating nicely with technologies like Kubernetes that can spawn more workers if the existing workers get overloaded.
By also encrypting the cookie, you can get rid of most of the backend state management, even for variables that should be hidden from the user, and simply decrypt+mutate+encrypt the cookie passed back and forth with every request, stuffing as many encrypted variables in there as can you can make fit.
They're also useful for signing in to other websites without the backend needing to do a bunch of callbacks. If a user of website A wants to authenticate with website B, and website B trusts website A, simply verifying the cookie with the public key (and a timestamp, maybe a n\_once, etc.) of website A can be enough to prove that the user is logged into website A. You can stuff that cookie into a GET request through a simple redirect, saving you the trouble of setting up security headers on both ends to permit cross-website cookie exchanges.
In most cases, signed cookies are kind of overkill. If all your application has is a single backend, a single database, and a single frontend, just use session cookies. This also helps protect against pitfalls in many common signed cookie variants and their frameworks.
nmadden
4 hours ago
Originally it was about scalability - signed/encrypted cookies are stateless, and hence (in theory) allow easy horizontal elastic scaling: just share the key with the new nodes. But I suspect that in a lot of cases now it is because it is easier initially to throw a key into an environment variable than standup a database, sort out caching, etc. It’s only later that you start thinking about revocation and idle timeouts and key rotation and all the other stuff that it becomes clear that it's not that simple to do well.
resonious
14 hours ago
A bit of a tangent. This isn't a dig on HMAC itself, but using HTTP request body or query string as the HMAC "message" is the worst. My employer provides some APIs with that sort of scheme and it's a very common source of technical customer support tickets.
The problem is that many people are using web frameworks that automatically turn body and query into some kind of hash map data structure. So when you tell them "use the request body as the HMAC message", they go "OK, message = JSON.stringify(request.body)", and then it's up to fate whether or not their runtime produces the same exact same JSON as yours. Adding a "YOU MUST USE THE RAW REQUEST BODY" to the docs doesn't seem to work. We've even had customers outright refuse to do so after we ask them to do so in the "why are my verifications failing" ticket. And good luck if it's a large/enterprise customer. Get ready to have 2 different serialization routines: one for the general populous, and one for the very large customer that wrote their integration years ago and you only now found out that their runtime preserves "&" inside JSON strings but yours escapes it.
Rant over...
Elucalidavah
11 hours ago
> "&" inside JSON strings but yours escapes it
What escaping of "&" inside JSON are you talking about? Some unholy mix of JSON and urlencode?
resonious
10 hours ago
Ruby on Rails turns "&" into "\u0026".
See rails/rails, activesupport/lib/active_support/json/encoding.rb.
growse
8 hours ago
I think AWS SigV4 tries (and succeeds?) in solving this issue?
beeboobaa3
4 hours ago
Shitty software developers will always find ways to screw things up unfortunately
__MatrixMan__
14 hours ago
Are things like Diffie Hellman generally available such that you can always get a symmetric key? Or is that a special case?
vogr
8 hours ago
I'm no cryptographer, but I would say that it is indeed the case that you can assume that two parties can derive a shared key over an untrusted channel. The post Cryptography Right Answers PQ [1], linked in another comment, addresses this in the section "Key Exchange". Rather than thinking about Diffie-Hellman directly, you would turn to a Key Exchange Mechanism (KEM).
Before post-quantum cryptography concerns, KEM were indeed mostly built on top of Diffie-Hellman key agreement, but you could also build one on top of RSA, or on top of some lattice constructs. But you wouldn't build one yourself, there are good constructions to choose from! The OP actually has a 3-part series on KEMs, although I don't think it addresses post-quantum issues [2].
[1]: https://www.latacora.com/blog/2024/07/29/crypto-right-answer... [2]: https://neilmadden.blog/2021/01/22/hybrid-encryption-and-the...
nmadden
4 hours ago
Just want to point out that the article specifically says to use an authenticated KEM (AKEM). A normal, unauthenticated KEM would not work as it provides no authentication. There are no post-quantum authenticated KEMs as yet.
ramchip
7 hours ago
DH + HMAC on its own doesn't give you authentication, anyone can establish a symmetric key. It's possible to build authentication on top but it requires pre-shared data or PKI.
nmadden
4 hours ago
The way DH is used typically for encryption (ECIES) or in TLS doesn’t give you authentication. But you can get authentication from DH alone, without PSK or PKI. See https://neilmadden.blog/2021/04/08/from-kems-to-protocols/ for some details on the security properties of various types of DH.
anyfoo
15 hours ago
Yeah, if you have a shared secret, HMAC is the way to go.
It's also super simple: It's almost literally just concatenating the secret and the message you want to authenticate together, and take an ordinary hash (like SHA256) of that, the rest of it is just to deal with padding.
It's super intuitive how HMAC works: If you just mash secret and message together on your side, and get the same answer as what the other side told you, then you know that the other side had the secret key (and exactly this message), because there's obviously no way to go from SHA256 to the input.
HMAC is also useful if you want to derive new secret keys from other secret keys. Take an HMAC with the secret key and an arbitrary string, you get a new secret key. The other side can do the same thing. Here's the kicker, the arbitrary string does not have to be secret to anyone, it can be completely public!
Why would you do that? Well, maybe you want the derived key to have a different lifetime and scope. A "less trusted" component could be given this derived key to do its job without having to know the super-secret key it was derived from (which could be used to derive other keys for other components, or directly HMAC or decrypt other stuff).
loeg
14 hours ago
> It's also super simple: It's almost literally just concatenating the secret and the message you want to authenticate together, and take an ordinary hash (like SHA256) of that, the rest of it is just to deal with padding.
It's not quite as simple as that. The output of the first hash is hashed a second time (to prevent length extension attacks).