billypilgrim
3 days ago
When I had started my PhD, I thought the writing part of a paper was just the last thing I needed to do to summarize my results, like a boring epilogue to the more exciting science. What surprised me was how much of the scientific process relied on my ability to convey my ideas to someone else. And to be able to do that you need clarity of mind, you need to have worked through multiple drafts to be able to get to your point as efficiently and clearly as possible. So many times I only discovered what I was actually researching during the writing part.
The problem with AI writing is that it makes people believe that writing is just writing and not a tool for thinking very deeply about the topic you are writing about. I am not completely opposed to AI assisted writing, but if I see AI writing, it’s telling me that the author tried to take a shortcut in their own thinking and it’s a good heuristic that the ideas will not be thought through enough to warrant my complete attention.
cameldrv
3 days ago
Same with reading actually. Reading a book makes you think for a long time about the subject and form your own judgments. I like audiobooks and online content too, but they don’t seem to stimulate this nearly as much.
For audiobooks, I seem to not have as much of a tendency to pause the audio and stop and think, and it’s harder to reread a passage, so it’s a more passive experience.
For online content, there’s not as much of an intention to fully engage with the material. It’s easy to skim or switch to something else.
torben-friis
3 days ago
>it’s telling me that the author tried to take a shortcut in their own thinking and it’s a good heuristic that the ideas will not be thought through enough to warrant my complete attention.
Even worse: Facing AI writing, there's a strong suspicion that any concerns or counterpoints you bring won't be actually considered, but rather copypasted into an llm session.
latexr
2 days ago
Indeed. I used to thoroughly help strangers with programming and automation when they asked, or to explain the issues with a PR that even though I wouldn’t merge I wanted it to be clear where it could improve. It’s rewarding to teach someone who wants to learn. Nowadays there’s a lot of “I asked Claude and it said this”, so I don’t bother. I’ll gladly give you my time if you want to understand things, but I’m not going to waste it writing a thorough response just so you ignore it and shove it into an LLM.
sublinear
3 days ago
That's a good thing. The writer who has nothing to say and the dumb audience who doesn't care stay down where they belong pacified by their "AI".
latexr
2 days ago
I think you misunderstood. I believe the parent comment is talking about an audience who does care enough to message the author, but the author would just shove that message into an LLM to reply.
bartread
3 days ago
The trick, I think - at least this has helped me - is not to use the AI to write for me, nor to use it to rewrite my drafts, but is to do the writing myself and to ask it for editorial feedback. This forces me to think through what I’ve written more deeply, and then rewrite it according to that deeper understanding.
I think if I used AI for the actual writing then, (a) there’d be a lot missing, and (b) I’d rob myself of much of the value, in better understanding, of writing myself.
We’re not all the same so YMMV, but this is what I’ve found from using AI in various ways to see if and how it can help with writing.
4b11b4
3 days ago
This is my stance, but I go further to say that that you shouldn't even use it for feedback...
The feedback bit is surely more debatable, but I would argue the initial writing and allowing edits are not.
https://antoaenono.com/write/fragments/writing#:~:text=never...
With respect to seeking feedback, my angle is that: even if you do agree with the feedback then what they do. Are you going to take it as is? Are you going to come up with it and phrase it in your own way?
What next? Next, what if there's a bunch more feedback that you agree with and you incorporate it. Then, where do we go from there?
Can you even go back to (b) and make your own edits at this point? I'm not sure and I worry about a slippery slope where you stray too far from your own original form -- so I landed on not seeking feedback either.
note: this all is definitely under progress and as I'm looking at it it's very noisy with all of the formatting... just finally getting my site put together
also not sure about my fish progress bar hah
bartread
2 days ago
For me I take the view that it’s similar to asking a human for feedback. I sift it, ditch what I’m not interested in or don’t agree with, do more research on what might be interesting, then decide what I want to incorporate and rewrite from there.
On grammar, typos, and the like I tend to take LLM feedback as read in most cases. Beyond this I think it’s a mistake not to do the legwork yourself, just as you’d have to if you’ve ever worked with a human editor.
But the LLM is helpful because it reduces the cycle time for feedback, which helps maintain momentum - helps me anyway.
4b11b4
2 days ago
Yes, of course it does reduce the cycle time. And it certainly can open you up to new areas that you didn't consider.
If you were to ask some friends to give you feedback, they might not have to expertise to propose those new ideas.
Instead, you'd have to explain to them and try to catch them up to speed. It'd be painful, slow, and maybe not result in any direct improvements. Maybe it'd only help you explain to the _next_ friend you have to bother. Maybe you'd decide that you want to be friends with some people knowledgeable in that area.
That's one of the main things I think LLMs are really good at, is isolating us in favor of speed and convenience.
xorcist
2 days ago
> For me I take the view that it’s similar to asking a human for feedback
But it's not asking a human for feedback. That's kind of an important difference, isn't it?
No human tried to understand your writing, and tried to explain their understandings back to you. How much is left of the editorial process then?
bartread
2 days ago
It's certainly a difference, but it's a similar kind of conversation to what I'd have had in the past with people about pieces I've written. I.e., where a human tried to understand my writing and explained that understanding back to me, as you've said, only now it's the LLM doing it.
Of course it won't be the same, but it wouldn't be the same if I had the same conversation with multiple different people either, so I'm not sure that's the biggest problem.
The thing is, you can either find this process useful, or you can not find it useful, and I think both of these are valid viewpoints.
I'm simply laying out what works well for me, and I already (I hope) made it clear that it might not work so well for everyone, because to some extent we all work differently.
frogulis
3 days ago
I think you make an interesting point.
I generally don't think LLMs writing prose for humans is a good idea (except for perhaps the most boring kinds of copywriting) but I feel a lot more positive about LLMs as reviewers, even if I don't necessarily use them myself often. My positivity comes from how relatively easy it generally is to validate feedback on a piece of writing you're intimately familiar with.
Gotta say, I don't relate to your concerns about "stray[ing] too far" _in the short term_. I think if reading LLM feedback has upset your original thinking that catastrophically you may have either been wrong (in which case, good that you received feedback early?) or writing with little intention.
However in the long term I can totally see how you could get into a habit of laziness, trusting the LLM to fix your stuff, or mindlessly applying fixes without really considering them.
4b11b4
2 days ago
re: straying too far. I see what you mean but I didn't mean if the feedback itself was to influence your writing
I meant if you were to accept and incorporate the feedback (even if done manually yourself) a handful of times, then at what point have you strayed far enough. Once, twice? If you set it down and revisit, then what if you forget which parts you came up with yourself?
I guess my reasoning here is I never want to guess which is my own ideas/writing. That's too slippery of a slope.
frogulis
a day ago
> I guess my reasoning here is I never want to guess which is my own ideas/writing.
Wow! Okay, I wouldn't have guessed that was your concern. How do you feel about feedback from a human editor then? Or is that preferable because it's from a real person? I could empathise with that distinction, TBH.
hosh
3 days ago
One of the things I ask AI to help edit my writing is a consistency pass, making sure my ideas hang together well. The real test is to see if other humans understand it.
I tell mine that line editing and formatting are the very last polish.
4b11b4
2 days ago
A consistency pass could be harmless. Though maybe you want to stray a bit?! Depends on the audience I suppose.
gonzalohm
3 days ago
I feel that way about coding. Sometimes you have an idea and a plan to implement it. But once you start coding you realize that some things were not fully right or way more complex that it should If you let AI code for you, you will lose that
0c3ca83
3 days ago
Yes. The code I produce in a year I could type in a week. The time goes into understanding the problem. You're not going to get significantly more code without reducing the level of understanding.
FeteCommuniste
3 days ago
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth (at runtime)." - Mike Tyson
AlienRobot
2 days ago
I wrote this in another comment too, but one thing that helps in this case is to write what you want to implement in English first.
If it doesn't make sense in English, it won't make sense in code. But English is easier to draft and edit than code.
mpyne
3 days ago
This happens a lot, which is why agile-style methods kept popping up to replace waterfall techniques, even before anyone tagged them with the ‘agile’ label.
Ironically, that led to a Agile™ consultant-industrial complex that tried to make it a cookie-cutter process again, but we still haven’t escaped the need to break out the IDE and actually put idea into something concrete, and I doubt we ever will.
0c3ca83
3 days ago
The problem with AI is that it's entire selling point is saving time by not needing to think very deeply about topics.
The writing is downstream of that.
steve-atx-7600
3 days ago
I think that is a problem between keyboard and chair situation. I use codex in addition to my own thinking through use cases and talking to stakeholders & domain experts to augment my understanding and find gaps in my plan. In other words, I work how I worked before but with a bunch of agents helping me research and diagram out plans faster before I start coding something.
0c3ca83
3 days ago
I agree, it sounds like you have a problem between your keyboard and chair, if you're generating any volume of output and not getting it in detail.
The act of vetting it and finding the failures will increase understanding, but at a cost in speed over doing the research from scratch. (Generating subtly wrong text is often a good way to test understanding, and the output of AI systems is typically a mangled clone of some other well understood system. A very good exercise is building your internal pattern recognition so you can tell what's been mangled, mashed, and served up)
AI is very good at making the mash sound plausible, however, so if you don't look extremely closely, you end up repeating instead of dissecting it. And if you're hoping to learn from the AI how to design a system, you're in trouble.
8note
3 days ago
but in actuality, its all about how you use it.
you can dump your thoughts and constraints you can think of, and have it work through untangling, or use it as a summarizing notepad, or yo prototype what you are thinking about in different variations.
its no replacement for pen and paper, but no typed or drawn on tablet picture comes close to a real notebook to scribble on its entirely a thinking tool, as much as a skip-thinking tool
bananaflag
2 days ago
> When I had started my PhD, I thought the writing part of a paper was just the last thing I needed to do to summarize my results, like a boring epilogue to the more exciting science.
I personally (caveat: in math, not science) always found the writing part more pleasant and exciting than the research part. In research, I was always anxious that I won't have any idea, or that the proof idea won't work. In writing, I was relaxed that I had obtained a result so I got excited about how to write it up beautifully.
Imustaskforhelp
3 days ago
I am starting to believe that if something is worth sharing, it is worth writing (atleast once) by a human completely. An AI clean/pass-up after that might be okay but atleast once, an author should try to create the whole piece.
I used to have a real complicated dilemma on which content exactly to write (& then share), I recently started using handy's TTS and storing it in my scratchpad app within my native language or English and then I paste it into Chatgpt and use its memories to connect with other previous discussions I had.
It helps in saving thoughts which would've otherwise been lost, even provide some new perspectives and get them in a way that I can access them later in more depth.
I think that if I were to now create blogs of these contents. I used to think that it would perhaps be okay to share an blog like thing created by AI if say I spent 10-20 minutes thinking of the rough draft of it, but after reading your comment, I am reflecting on the fact that, atleast once, people should write things themselves no matter which AI thing they use before creating blogs.
As the point of blogs shouldn't be to share unlimited content but rather that it is the specific content where a human effort was placed. Maybe if one still wants, there could be some other blog post which could be written with all the AI blogs content I have created perhaps but still, it should be seperated away from human content.
And there is this fact that as you mention, writing itself forces you to think through ideas and thoughts which are highly relevant. So previously when I used to think that re-writing them would be a waste of time and that AI writes them good enough. I think that writing them still might make a lot of sense as it would be a net benefit if not for anybody else, then for me as it can help me better understand the material myself (even more so than reading/speaking it)
The most typing/writing of myself now occurs in Hackernews comments for me and I do observe that I learn a lot writing them personally.
AlienRobot
2 days ago
Absolutely. And ironically one thing I discovered while trying to use AI is that it applies to programming too.
I'd heard that one-shot a project with AI, you need a fairly complete design document instead of a short prompt, so I tried to write one.
In doing that, I'd include the unhappy paths as well, e.g. in describing a list/detail interface: the list shows the X's (I thought: but in what order?) in alphabetical order; when an X is selected, the detail is displayed in the detail pane; (lists should work with multiple selection, so) multiple items may be selected at once, in which case the detail pane should display "N items selected" instead of the interface to edit the items; (a list starts empty, so) if no items are selected, the detail pane should display "No items selected", etc.
Laying out the entire system in plain English helped me have the whole thing inside my head, and see cases where presumptions about how the system would work wouldn't actually hold in practice because they weren't even holding in the text I was writing. So I had to edit the draft to fix my wrong assumptions until it made sense.
And of course the AI managed to do a pretty terrible and disappointing job at it in the end, because it made mistakes in the parts I didn't specify, or placed widgets in the wrong places because the layout that was difficult to explain in text, etc. It's somewhat impressive that anything ambiguous is a spot where AI can make the worst assumption imaginable, like it doesn't have the capacity to intuit "oh, we are making THIS sort of app, so it should look like this". But it was a good learning experience.
I suppose it's a great idea to write out what you're about to do before you set out to do it, because it helps you think about it in whole and in detail. It would be terrible if people stopped doing that.
SwtCyber
2 days ago
There's a difference between asking a model to figure out your argument and using it to make an argument you've already spent days working through more readable
zahlman
3 days ago
Part of the problem is that the English word "writing" refers to both the process and the result.
gofreddygo
2 days ago
this lands. and i find it true for software development too. a lot of the initial codebase is me discovering what i am *actually* building (should be building). all that vanishes with vibe coding.
Choad_20261104
3 days ago
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jbs789
3 days ago
This happened to me recently. I just asked what the prompt was. I found it really tough to read AI words, not knowing the weight to put in each word. A almost gave it more credit than was due and responded in detail, before seeing the prompt and responding barely at all - equivalent to the thought put in.