rahen
2 days ago
A lot of mistakes in this article, although it's well-intentioned.
There is a direct lineage from the PDP-1 to the PDP-4, and the 18-bit lineage ends with the PDP-15 (missing).
The dual-mode PDP-12 (PDP-8 + LINC) is missing from the 12-bit lineage.
The VAX (VAX-11 initially) was an offspring of the PDP-11 and the VAX-11 could natively run PDP-11 user-mode code. DEC then tried to use the VAX to unify both the 10 and 11 markets.
The PDP-11 and VAX software heritage lives on mostly in C and UNIX (NetBSD being the closest relative), and in VMS / NT. The PDP-10 heritage lives on mostly in Emacs.
"However, even its most powerful configuration wasn’t powerful enough to attract many pdp-10 users." They didn’t serve the same markets.
The PDP-10 was a time-sharing system that shone more for LISP than FORTRAN. For heavy number crunching and matmuls (the FORTRAN playground), 16-bit PDP-11s were usually used, with an auxiliary array processor such as the AP-120B or the CSPI MiniMAP. Those array processors could deliver more than 10 MFLOPS back then, when a minicomputer with a 50-100 KFLOPS FPU was already considered fast (FPUs were an expensive option back then).
usr1106
2 days ago
Not very familiar with PDP history, but PDP-12 missing also caught my attention.
Regarding later heritage, to my understanding, several developers of the VMS kernel moved on to work on the Windows NT kernel. Whether it's really only coincidence that every letter of the acronym got shifted by one?
adrian_b
2 days ago
The first few versions of Windows NT had a very strong API resemblance with VMS, which is why Microsoft settled to pay to DEC a 9-digit $ amount, to avoid a legal battle. Though eventually that deal was less advantageous for DEC than it appeared from the amount of money, because it included the support of Windows NT for DEC computers.
The parts of the initial Windows NT API that did not resemble VMS looked liked cleaned-up versions of the UNIX API, e.g. the functions for handling file and device I/O.
The central role of asynchronous I/O in Windows NT was inherited from VMS, which in turn had inherited it from the RSX-11M operating system for PDP-11 computers (Dave Cutler had a major role in the development of all these 3 operating systems).
Whether VMS => WNT is a joke like IBM => HAL, is anyone's guess. A more certain thing is that IBM was named such as to be a hyperbolic substitute of the name of its main competitor, NCR (National => International, Cash Register => Business Machines)
larsbrinkhoff
2 days ago
The PDP-4 isn't binary compatible with the PDP-1. There is compatibility within the 4/7/9/15 line. So the PDP-1 stands out, and in that sense the lineage isn't direct.
DonHopkins
2 days ago
Hi Lars!
Did AI or any other PDP-10s have a 340 display, and did LLOGO use that, or a raster framebuffer? What versions of LOGO does SIMH run, and is PDP-11 LOGO recovered and running?
I found a recently written Forth for the PDP-10 called "TENTH" (Ha ha! I suppose that means we should call Mitch Bradley's PDP-7 FORTH "SEVENTH"!), and I remember GREN (Ian Mackey) wrote his own PDP-10 FORTH on ITS as well as lots of other cool hacks in MIDAS. Do you know if anything from his home directory was recovered from backups?
larsbrinkhoff
14 hours ago
Hi Don!
The AI PDP-6 and 10 shared a Type 340 between them. It was the only 340 in the lab. Lick's Dynamic Modeling group had an LDS-1 from Evans&Sutherland.
LLOGO could display vector graphics on the 340 or GT40, and raster on the Knight TV or LOGO color TV (16 colors!)
LOGO versions on ITS include BBN LOGO for TOPS-10, CLOGO for ITS, LLOGO, 11LOGO, and Apple II LOGO. Yes, 11LOGO is recovered. There's an early standalone version, and a later version that ran on the SITS timesharing system on an 11/45.
Yes, there are GREN files. I have been in touch occasionally with Ian. Someone else called KLE wrote a FORTH in Maclisp.
DonHopkins
7 hours ago
Wow, awesome!
I appreciate, appropriated, and built on top of the excellent definitive SIMH Type 340 display work that you, Phil Budne, and Douglas Gwyn did, and I hope to incorporate your phosphor simulator with your permission and guidance! Imagine the beautiful trails that the Ultimate Hand will leave behind (direct manipulation power cycling via hand waving, implemented in Mitch's PDP-7 Forth):
https://hyperties.org/cabinet/ultimate-hand/
https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
Please let Gren know I'd love to hear from him, it's been a long time since I last visited him in Santa Cruz.
Those LOGOs are a treasure trove! Thanks for digging them all up and bringing them back to life. I consider LLOGO (and the others) to be classic computer science literature worthy of study and analysis and emulation. LLOGO is especially interesting and challenging to emulate since it speaks so intimately with such a wide range of cool devices.
An authentic historic LOGO Turtle with an accurate 3D model and mechanical locomotion simulator that draws with SVG instead of ink would be a perfect portrait to paint!
The portrait: a 3D cabinet with live lights, a hot tube, and hands:
https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23054174
>DonHopkins on May 2, 2020 | parent | context | favorite | on: History of Logo
>Here is the source code to LLogo in MACLISP, which I stashed from the MIT-AI ITS system. It's a fascinating historical document, 12,480 lines of beautiful practical lisp code, defining where the rubber meets the road, with drivers for hardware like pots, plotters, robotic turtles, TV turtles, graphical displays, XGP laser printers, music devices, and lots of other interesting code and comments.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23054499
>larsbrinkhoff on May 2, 2020 [–]
>Also running on the emulator: PDP-10 Logo, PDP-11 Logo, Applle II Logo.
>The emulator doesn't support the robot arm yet.
Now the PDP-7 emulator supports fictional emulated devices like a Turing Machine co-processor, an Ultimate Machine hardware accelerated self-switcher-offer, and a Data Hand (webcam driven data glove without the glove).
Besides a PDP-6 emulator, PDP-10 emulator, PDP-11 emulator, and shared memory support to emulate AI's 10/11 interface, we also need a callable elevator emulator and a buzzable door lock emulator, since you recovered the chaosnet server to drive them!
https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/lmio1/door.1
The idea is that these device emulators can plug into all kinds of different machine emulators, just like the real Type 340 display can plug into a PDP-1, PDP-6, PDP-7, PDP-10.
Or even plugging an Englebart Mouse and Chord Keyset, Data Hand, Turing Machine, or Ultimate Machine device emulators into an Apple ][ emulator using $C0X0 memory mapped hardware registers and $CX00 PROM drivers instead of IOT instructions, so "IN#7" lets you type with a chord keyboard (driven by webcam hand tracking of course). I'm using and extending Paleotronic's excellent microM8 Apple ][ emulator written in Go that runs in WASM, and adding a Videx 80 column card emulator that my Forth terminal emulator needs:
https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/tree/main...
Mitch's PDP-7 Forth is the ideal way to integrate those fictional device emulators with the real Type 340 display device emulator in the PDP-7 emulator. And I'm reincarnating my Apple ][ Forth and terminal emulator, which I lost the source code to long ago, but still have a build on a floppy image, which can decompile and disassemble itself, to reverse engineer a rebuildable source code base.
Cabinet Manifesto:
https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
Plugging devices into multiple machines:
https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
The DataHand, layer by layer:
https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
How a device reaches a machine:
https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
Architecture and Lineage: Devices can travel farther than CPUs:
https://github.com/SimHacker/WillWrightShowForFood/blob/main...
More (old) Forth Stuff (mentioning my Apple ][ Forth system and terminal emulator I'm recovering):
https://donhopkins.com/home/catalog/lang/forth.html
>The first Forth system I used was Cap'n Software Forth, on the Apple ][, by John Draper. The first time I met John Draper was when Mike Grant brought him over to my house, because Mike's mother was fed up with Draper, and didn't want him staying over any longer. So Mike brought him over to stay at my house, instead. He had been attending some science fiction convention, was about to go to the Galopagos Islands, always insisted on doing back exercises with everyone, got very rude in an elevator when someone lit up a cigarette, and bragged he could smoke Mike's brother Greg under the table. In case you're ever at a party, and you have some pot that he wants to smoke and you just can't get rid of him, try filling up a bowl with some tobacco and offering it to him. It's a good idea to keep some "emergency tobacco" on your person at all times whenever attending raves in the bay area. My mom got fed up too, and ended up driving him all the way to the airport to get rid of him. On the way, he offered to sell us his extra can of peanuts, but my mom suggested that he might get hungry later, and that he had better hold onto them. What tact!
>I had a job programming Forth for a little company called "Computer Challenges", when I was in high school. I implemented my own Forth programming environment for the Apple ][ computer, and a graphics and animation package in 6502 assembly. Then I wrote an animated graphics demo with it, promoting Forth as a cross platform game programming language across Apple ][, C64, and BBC computers. (That was more than a few years before Java.)
larsbrinkhoff
2 days ago
Also the dual-mode LINC-8 which was the immediate PDP-12 predecessor. It was as much a PDP in all but the name.
DonHopkins
2 days ago
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