gertrunde
6 hours ago
The mischievous part of me wonders what would happen if torrentfreak wrote a matching article, with content that messes with the paper...
Cpoll
2 hours ago
Papers with claims that don't match their citations aren't a new phenomenon, so probably nothing.
trollbridge
6 hours ago
They couyld have indeed presented data that only AIs would scrape or notice... which would be entirely legitimate on their part to do.
My own website spews bogus content and misinformation about almost any topic to misconfigured scrapers. I expect to eventually see it in some training sets.
barbazoo
5 hours ago
How would one implement that?
toonvanvr
6 hours ago
What's the end goal of actively harming what's fed to an AI if you already detected it and could have blocked it by then?
geraneum
6 hours ago
> actively harming
Are they force feeding these information to AI?
jrm4
5 hours ago
"Actively harming" is a technically true and also legitmately crazy way to frame this.
rationalist
5 hours ago
Which the AI then passes on to a user who doesn't know any better and then you get recipes for mixing bleach and ammonia for curing asthma (extreme example).
duskdozer
5 hours ago
If I write a story that includes a character mixing bleach and ammonia for curing asthma and publish it on my website, am I responsible for an LLM company ingesting my story without contact or my consent and then at some point in the future providing a user instructions to mix bleach and ammonia for curing asthma?
rationalist
4 hours ago
Is that what you're doing?
duskdozer
4 hours ago
On the contrary, I'm saying is that it's not okay that the world becomes worse-off, as long as it's not [the LLM companies'] fault. If it means they don't have a viable business model by only ingesting data that they have permission for and is verified, and by being held fully responsible for the content they serve their users - in order to prevent the world from becoming worse-off - then they should not operate.
speff
4 hours ago
This seems like a two wrongs don't make a right situation. Yes, the LLM providers are in the wrong for not vetting data. But in my mind, the person poisoning data is also partially responsible for negative downstream effects that are caused. What % of the blame is up for argument, but neither side is 0% in the wrong.
duskdozer
3 hours ago
So the type and content of what fiction I write should be controlled so that LLM companies may choose for the sake of maximum profit to haphazardly collect any data they please and to neglect the safety and validity of the content they choose to serve users?
speff
3 hours ago
If it's meant to be fiction and not presented as a real-world fact, then I don't see any problem on your part. If you're presenting it as fact solely to trick an LLM into believing it, then yes I see a problem.
bluefirebrand
22 minutes ago
It is a common trope in some forms of fiction for the author to insist "this really happened I promise"
It is still meant to be understood that it obviously did not happen, despite such claims
hilariously
4 hours ago
We call it self defense when you fight back against a much better equipped attacker.
speff
3 hours ago
If you fire a gun in self defense and hit a bystander, you're still responsible.
xvector
3 hours ago
If you do this with the intent of LLMs scraping this and this ending up in the corpus used by LLMs, it is indeed very illegal, especially as LLMs become more load bearing for medicine, defense, etc.
malfist
2 hours ago
And the LLM, does it bear no responsibility here?
krapp
2 hours ago
An LLM is not a person, and as such cannot "bear responsibility."
maddie0
2 hours ago
very illegal? under what law? the one that's embedded in the us constitution that asserts that congress shall make no law affecting freedom of speech (and is incorporated against the states)? seems highly unlikely if so
xvector
2 hours ago
Most current laws around booby traps and sabotage. Intent obviously matters a lot, and under the stated intent this is illegal.
ofjcihen
an hour ago
This is one of the worst legal takes I’ve ever seen. Well done.
I have no obligation to provide accurate or safe material for scraping. Intent is a non-starter here because nothing else is satisfied.
The only obligation here is on the LLM providers.
griffzhowl
5 hours ago
It's entirely the responsibility of ai companies how much of the internet's trash they deliver to their users
rationalist
4 hours ago
And that user has no responsibility for creating the slop to begin with, for the sole purpose of poisoning a resource that others rely on?
jazzyjackson
3 hours ago
No
The notion that these services are information that can be “relied on” is poison, and something that the companies would never say about themselves. Imagine as the bottom of ChatGPT it said “no need to doubt the results, this Oracle can be relied on”
xvector
3 hours ago
I don't think you understand how illegal this is. As these models start being used for autonomous decisionmaking in medicine, defense and whatnot, this will be considered industrial sabotage and if it ever harms someone you are so fucked.
I'm not even debating the morality of AI and LLM companies here, this is just fact. If a pharma company is illegally using your water source, you cannot poison it knowing the pharma company will then use this water. Well, not unless you like prison.
rationalist
2 hours ago
I think a more apt comparison would be if you wrote harmful information on Wikipedia and someone used it and died as a result.
I'm not sure what U.S. laws say about that though.
Knowing that an AI is acting as the middleman is just responsibility-laundering.
bluefirebrand
19 minutes ago
If writing harmful information online (including wikipedia) was something illegal, wouldn't there be just a ton of currently illegal shit online? Like anti-vax stuff?
daveguy
4 hours ago
Poison? Seriously? As if false references, perpetual false confidence, sycophantic suicidal encouragement, and convoluted spaghetti code wasn't enough. 90% of what these things fling is poison and the quicker the general public recognizes it the quicker they won't be duped into taking them at face value. The training sets are already going to be full of AI generated garbage. This just hastens the recognition.
jrm4
3 hours ago
Absolutely.
And for this the company responsible for the AI disseminating this information in such a way that people are relying on it should be prosecuted and/or sued into oblivion.
The original poster of the bad information should perhaps as well, but only also if it was reasonable to rely on them for this.
(We have the legal principles, we just need to use them.)
rererereferred
4 hours ago
They feel harmed by the AI companies training AI on their data so they feel retaliation is justified.