djsjajah
9 hours ago
Not all things are possible, only potentially possible ones. If you take all the numbers between zero and one, you will find an endless supply of distinct numbers but none of them are 3.
caturopath
5 hours ago
For example, there's probability 0 of worlds where charge isn't conserved.
TheOtherHobbes
2 hours ago
CPT symmetry isn't conserved, so that's not necessarily a given.
We don't know the mechanism which generates the gauge symmetry that makes charge discrete or generates conservation laws from symmetries, so it's risky to be too prescriptive about what is and isn't possible.
In the limit you can imagine a meta-technology which manipulates the mathematical structures that generate reality instead of just assuming the rules are fixed. That might or might not be possible, but the rules have to come from somewhere and there's no absolute guarantee they're hardcoded.
caturopath
an hour ago
So, what I meant to say was that using the computational gadget from physics, none of the branches will violate conservation of charge.
However, my post sucked and I didn't get around to emphasizing that. In quantum mechanics, it's possible for some state to have zero probability, and it's those probabilities that we're talking about everything being possible.
There's also the epistemic side where we know that there's a chance our theories are wrong in any given way. Those can't go to zero based on our model since the whole point is we're not restricting to a model. BTW, I really like your example as a good, clean limiting case.
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I'm sure people have come up with theories that violate conservation of charge, but they'd have to break U(1). I don't know what conservation CPT would break, if any; Noether's theorem shouldn't apply to it as a discrete symmetry.
ben_w
4 hours ago
If so, this has interesting implications for the cause of the baryon asymmetry problem.
Either the baryon number started non-zero and was conserved; or non-conservation of baryon number (protons vs antiprotons etc) have to be paired with equivalent non-conservation of lepton number (electrons vs positrons etc); or it can happen without simultaneously balancing the lepton number, and charge isn't conserved.
Unfortunately (for me) those implications are above my level. I can't usefully converse with an LLM about it, as this isn't a domain I know well enough to detect if it's making stuff up.
tcdent
9 hours ago
Aren't you really just talking about the level of abstraction being applied? If there are infinite possibilities between zero and one, then it's just our way of relating to it that imposes the perception of a limitation.
djsjajah
7 hours ago
No. You might be reading into it a little bit too much. My point was that finding three needs to be possible for you to find it. If you are looking on the interval 0-1, it is not possible. As other comments have kinda of suggested, you could map every integer to a real and find "three" but if you are going to do that, why not just look on an interval that actually contains the number?
psychoslave
6 hours ago
It's unclear to me at least what you mean here. In term of what is logically possible, if we take for granted that all integer numbers and more are mappable from a subset of this interval, then we do have this number.
Now, on logistical level, the mapping procedure is not free, it does have a physical/energetic/mental cost to handle it, and a more trivial representation of integer has a lower cost on this regard.
But the simpler integer representation can represent less many situations. If all one need to deal with in a certain frame is covered by a simpler shipper representation, from an economical perspective it can be argued it worth the risk of hitting a point where the representation will be insufficient as the situation evolved with cases it can't handle.
My impression is that your underlying premises are conflating all of this distinguishable aspects. But of course my impression is limited by my own narrow representation of the world, no matter how open and curious I can be about learning from experiences it makes me go through.
djsjajah
5 hours ago
I think you are overthinking it too. The task was to find three, not something that is equivalent to three. However you choose to represent it, it wouldn't be hard to come up with a different "three" that you won’t find within that representation. If you are changing the representation, why wouldn't you just change the interval that you are searching?
moi2388
5 hours ago
He means that 3 is not between 0 and 1, which it really isn’t.
bryanrasmussen
4 hours ago
there aren't infinite possibilities between 0 and 1; there is an infinite sequence, the possibilities of which are quite strictly bound.
on edit: maybe should say infinite set instead of infinite sequence.
packetlost
8 hours ago
Maybe you can theoretically encode arbitrary (but not infinite) information, but there are still discrete underlying states.
fc417fc802
8 hours ago
> encode arbitrary (but not infinite) information
What leads you to claim that you can't encode infinite information given an infinite set to work with?
ben_w
4 hours ago
I suspect a looseness with language; this often happens with maths done in natural language, and I may be guilty of it even when I try not to be.
If spacetime is infinite in extent yet discrete at the Plank scale, it would be ℵ₀; the Hilbert space is real-valued and therefore (a vector of) ℵ₁.
The Bekenstein bound, in practice, would do limit how much information can be actually encoded, even if all quantum states have an underlying real value and therefore even just one quantum value of one particle is ℵ₁ all by itself.
magimas
5 hours ago
reality does not have an infinite set though.
Infinity is an abstraction that simplifies a lot of maths, it isn't real though.
gradus_ad
2 minutes ago
So you have proof spacetime is discrete?
mathisfun123
9 hours ago
Terrence Howard is that you?
lolakutty
8 hours ago
And can't one do all of mathematics without 3...(just map all the numbers > 1 to points inside the interval 0-1)?
dguest
5 hours ago
That's true for theoretical physics.
Experimental physics takes it one step back: it's all about setting bounds on what is potentially possible. A model of the universe might say that the numbers are between zero and one, but there's some other model that says there could be 3s.
Note that this epistemic uncertainty is not the same thing that the article is focused on. The article is mostly about one specific model, which itself has some randomness baked on.