I Became a Citizen of Japan

183 pointsposted 11 hours ago
by luu

71 Comments

propter_hoc

21 minutes ago

It is very sobering to consider the demographic cliff that Japan faces combined with the barriers the government puts up to immigration and naturalization.

I sincerely wonder what kind of country Japan will be in 50 years.

somenameforme

9 minutes ago

What you're saying is identical to what people 'on the other side' say in regards to allowing broad immigration. Japan is a place where the language is not widely spoken at all, outside of Japan, and it has an extremely distinct culture that's quite alien to much of the rest of the world.

If they just started allowing large numbers of people to become citizens, their culture, people, and society would rapidly shift in a way that their historical roots would have little place other than in the footnotes of history textbooks. Even their language itself could die.

I think the big take-away when both sides are saying the same thing, even if on a sort of horse-shoe of logic, is that the only really good solution is for the people within countries to actually start having a sustainable number of children again.

BobbyJo

14 minutes ago

Immigration is a temporary fix. Seems they aren't willing to completely change their countries racial and cultural demographics to put a bandaid on a change in how the world works.

United857

5 hours ago

Japan is one of those countries that doesn’t allow dual citizenship and they require proof of renunciation. Something to think about for those from other “strong” countries who want to go down that route.

fiatpandas

4 hours ago

If by “strong” you mean visa free global access, Japan is tied for #2, behind Singapore.

dodoisdodo

5 hours ago

How do you get proof of renunciation before becoming a japanese citizen? You would be stateless in between?

Muromec

13 minutes ago

There is a range of options depending on a country, but it's some variation of two phase commit. Some places give you a citizenship certificate and a temporary id (paper one at that) that allows voting but does not allow travel and only gives out the actual passport once you give them the proof or renunciation (or proof of trying hard enough and not being able to get one for reasons outside of your control). If you don't come up with either or get the extension, the decision is annulled.

Some places give you and option of citizenship that is contingent only on renouncing the previous one. Here you can actually become stateless if you get the option, renounce the old one and never use it.

Some places just give a passport and a strongly worded letter to do or else.

It's of course ridden with loopholes added there on purpose, because life is complicated and operation manual for clerks that deal with it is ... something. I'm for example supposed to renounce my blue passport since I got a nice bordeaux colored one, but that obligation is suspended due to unfortunate circumstances outside of my control.

Sometimes you don't have to renounce if you are married to a citizen, sometimes your children get a free pass, but only if insist on filling in the form 42-2002/13477 which they don't like you to know about. Sometimes the cost of renunciation procedure or length of it are enough to pinky swear instead and send the passport to the embassy with registered mail and itemized contents bill.

Some people have two passports and only renounce (or promise to not use) one of them, thinking they outsmarted the system only to get it renounced 10 years later once they pissed off somebody more then they expected (the drama you didn't even knew existed: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-910451 )

cheonic4040

an hour ago

> How do you get proof of renunciation before becoming a japanese citizen? You would be stateless in between?

Usually they say:

“Here’s your new passport. You have X months to provide proof you renounced all your prior nationalities, otherwise we will revoke your citizenship. If you lie and we find out later, we will revoke you then.”

TacticalCoder

4 hours ago

> Japan is one of those countries that doesn’t allow dual citizenship and they require proof of renunciation.

Japan doesn't allow dual citizenship if you acquire the japanese one later in life.

Plenty of people in Japan, like my nephew, have dual citizenship by birth. I don't know if they can keep both when they're adult. But as kids 100% guaranteed Japan allows it.

And then a great many mixed couple do, on purpose, give literally two different identities to their kids. One by registering them, say, in Germany with the name written in roman characters (say "Akane") and the other in Japan with the name written using kanjis (or kanas for that is allowed to).

I'm not talking about dual citizenships / two passports: I'm talking about the same person having two entirely different identities because his parents registered him, on purpose, differently in two different countries.

So, yes, there are literally a few people counted twice on earth. And you probably don't want to do that with the US citizenship (for US taxes its citizens worldwide and it's a reporting clusterfuck). But if you've got, say, a japanese identity and whatever european one: you're totally fine.

GolDDranks

4 hours ago

You are supposed to renounce your other citizenship by the age of 20. Not everyone does that, though, because it isn't checked.

cloche

4 hours ago

They allow it until the kids are 19. Then they are supposed to make a decision about which one they want to keep.

kaladin-jasnah

36 minutes ago

Yes, but my understanding is you can keep saying you're working on making a decision and de facto keep both.

sonar_un

8 hours ago

Stopped when he said he waited forever to get naturalized, skipping 6 years, and then saying he never got his permanent resident card, so he was just living off renewed visas, and they thought it was strange.

It is strange. A lot of the things he said he needed, would have been done in the permanent residence portion of his time in Japan. Just as it is in any country.

maxgashkov

2 hours ago

I know a few folks personally who got rejected for PR but got approved for citizenship. First, both of these get handled by different branches of government with the different screening guidelines (often not published). Second, perception differs: for a long time PR was viewed as something like 'all the benefits of living in Japan without any consequences', so the income requirements were stricter etc. (albeit all of this is changing now and it's difficult to say what will be the final state).

YouMeWeThem

3 hours ago

> A lot of the things he said he needed, would have been done in the permanent residence portion of his time in Japan.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Having PR isn't a prerequisite for naturalization, nor does it waive any of the requirements. Do you mean he should have collected extra copies of documents and applied for PR in parallel?

resonious

33 minutes ago

I have PR and only needed a small fraction of this stuff.

charlieyu1

8 hours ago

Once you are living in the country for a while, you can pretty much do anything and people don’t care about your resident status at all. For my daily lives in UK I only need my address and driving license. You pretty much have the feeling that you’ll be fine without bothering to do the paperwork, that’s how things work in the last 20-50 years.

elmer2

6 hours ago

This isn't true. I knew someone that lived illegally in the UK for almost a decade.

They could only get terrible restaurant jobs that didn't report anything to the government and were visited by immigration multiple times.

Even after getting an immigration lawyer couldn't help with citizenship.

What finally worked was having a kid and marrying a citizen.

tene80i

7 hours ago

What do you mean? Any major employer in the UK will need more than that for you to work there.

theturtletalks

7 hours ago

Yes my friend moved from Sydney to London for work and he said it was a nightmare. He had his job in London lined up but he needed a UK bank account. He couldn’t get a bank account until he had a UK residence. His apartment lease needed his proof of employment.

He had to use his friend’s address for the bank account and then changed it.

cjs_ac

6 hours ago

I also moved from Sydney to Britain and just paid my rent from my Australian bank account until I got my British bank account. Your friend may not have thought to do this because he probably expected the ‘prison guard LARP’ attitude that Australian real estate agents have to also exist here in Britain.

theturtletalks

5 hours ago

Oh for sure, he was working for the UK government in some capacity so wanted to make sure everything was by the book.

charlieyu1

6 hours ago

So only a few times in many years, I think most need an NI number only

freehorse

5 hours ago

That is what many people think before risking deportation for no other reason than not taking this seriously enough.

jghn

33 minutes ago

The ICE headlines in the USA makes a severe counterpoint

didip

4 hours ago

This is so wrong in pretty much all developed nations.

jsLavaGoat

4 hours ago

Are you American? Have you been to a Home Depot on Saturday?

jjulius

2 hours ago

Picking up illegal immigrants who are hanging out in a parking lot and, ostensibly, are very honest about being unemployed, ultimately to pay them under the table and not hire them because they lack paperwork, is supposed to be some kind of gotcha with regards to how much you can get away with without citizenship in the US?

fnordpiglet

2 hours ago

And seen the disproportionate use of military style force to run down naturalized citizens in the parking lot with tanks and tear gas?

klipt

8 hours ago

I thought Japan requires 10 years residence for PR, but only 5 years residence to naturalize, in which case it wouldn't be surprising if many people naturalize before getting PR!

excannuk

5 hours ago

"I don’t think citizenship is a light thing. It is not rational to make it friction-free or fast. I was not ready to naturalize in 2012. The system is arcane and arbitrary, and also worked correctly to weed me out of the process. It impressed upon me the importance of following the rules and making a contribution, which honestly impacted how I behaved and thought thereafter. When I was absolutely committed, I was able to get through the process."

This. My manager begged me at one point to apply for citizenship so itd make his life easier. I told him no, not until I was ready to make the oath in good faith.

precommunicator

8 hours ago

I'm pretty sure this is more data than what's required for security clearance.

antgonzales

42 minutes ago

I don't mean to be rude but this website is unreadable. The font really strains my eyes.

Johnny555

a few seconds ago

You should probably use a browser that has a "reader mode", Firefox even lets you change the "reader mode" font to whatever you want.

gcanyon

8 hours ago

> every address you've ever lived at, and the dates you lived there.

Well cross Japan off my list. I would not be able to produce that residence list under any circumstances.

Qazpqaz

8 hours ago

I can recommend keeping a list from now on. It's helped me quite a few times.

jacquesm

7 hours ago

Anything that needs that data I can do without. Besides that, they'd never believe it in the first place.

Barbing

6 hours ago

Would have to be able to do without many jobs in the USA! (Obviously glad though you’ve got your options and they’re sufficient.)

Also recommend to others keeping a list of all places from the past seven years.

jacquesm

5 hours ago

WTF is it that employers think they can get out of the last 7 years of addresses? That's private information, absolutely none of their business.

dcrazy

5 hours ago

It helps catch attempted identity theft. Lots of people who are not eligible for employment steal the identities of those who are. But they will have to make up any data they don’t know, or that is inapplicable because the true holder of that identity died a while ago.

monomania

4 hours ago

So basically I just need to hire a professional with access to a data broker to tell me what a prospective employer already knows about me.

Barbing

4 hours ago

The Work Number might be a good start there. Salary history and stuff apparently.

rayiner

5 hours ago

It's used for background checks to identify relevant criminal records, debt records, etc.

astura

3 hours ago

That information can be pulled as part of a background check, if that's required for the job.

goodmythical

3 hours ago

>Would have to be able to do without many jobs in the USA!

I've literally never had a US employer ask me for prior addresses. That's in ~20 years of employment.

Hell, I've had employers that didn't ask for current address.

dcrazy

5 hours ago

DHS requires 7 or so years of residence and travel history for Trusted Traveler Programs like Global Entry.

jacquesm

5 hours ago

Well, I'm going to have to do without that then. This is no great loss because I had already decided to forego traveling to the US because the way the border guards treated me on my last visit was enough to make me decide I didn't need that kind of headache. They still owe me a pair of boots.

dcrazy

3 hours ago

As a non-citizen I don’t think you are eligible for TTP.

Edit: derp. See below.

scq

an hour ago

Global Entry application is open to citizens of 22 additional countries in addition to US citizens.

astura

3 hours ago

In the US you can pull your credit report to get that information.

tehlike

5 hours ago

Yup, I think it's 5 years but yes.

Helps identity verification (or theft I guess)

gcanyon

4 hours ago

Fair, and it's not like it's hard to keep a google doc. But I literally don't know my apartment number from 10 years ago.

NolF

8 hours ago

Australia generally requires at least 10 years for some things.

Izikiel43

5 hours ago

If it’s ever lived in the country, the us has a similar requirement for applying to the greencard

ripley12

an hour ago

Derek's blog is a delight, probably the best thing in my RSS reader. I'd recommend reading more posts, it's a charming slice of life from near Tokyo.

scelerat

6 hours ago

Why is the word 'interrogation' (appears at least twice) interleaved with unprintable characters?

teraflop

6 hours ago

For some reason, the author chose to imitate a "strikethrough" text effect by following each letter with "U+0336 COMBINING LONG STROKE OVERLAY", rather than just using the <s> HTML element.

Walf

5 hours ago

They survive format changes. If copied and used as plain text, the meaning does not suddenly change from a joke to an ominous "interrogation consultation room".

goodmythical

3 hours ago

It certainly doesn't survive everywhere. It fails or renders differently in various applications I've just tested such as pdf renderers, tts, messaging, different browsers, terminals, and at least the one email client I tested it in.

When failing it appears either as "interrogation-" or some form of "interrog̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶-" or as "i-n-t-e-r-r-o-g-a-t-i-o-n-"

alfiedotwtf

3 hours ago

> The preliminary documentation I would need to gather <insert unbelievable list>

It’s hard to imagine why they are having a decreasing population problem

lmz

an hour ago

Well the gentleman in question still had kids having presumably Japanese nationality even before obtaining citizenship, so not sure that's related.

rootsudo

7 hours ago

The rules changed in 2025, as of q2 2025 it was only a requirement of five years residency within Japan to become naturalized and this route as considered easier than permanent residency.

Everything is now harder. Even business manager visa. So many 夢の日本 have been shattered and pushed into other Asian countries. I’ve also seen a push into Europe , Italy, which also changed the rules last year too which was considered a very easy way to become a European citizen, Canada for Americans protesting Trump, etc.

It really does feel like the prelude or reshuffle of the world balance, open borders, Covid, closing borders, higher qualifications..

Wonder what it all means.

monomania

4 hours ago

It's because the economy sucks ass and we're all struggling more to get less. Countries only want somebody who's basically guaranteed to bring something to the table and not somebody perceived to be a drag on an already struggling economy.

What it means (IMHO), if things don't get better, is more unpredictable politics. The Old Guard is already seen as having gotten us into this mess, and people will be more likely to try something new. We've seen a more authoritarian turn on both the right and the left. The ship could still right itself, but a lot of our problems are feeding back into each other and we may be seeing the beginnings of a phase transition, to borrow a metaphor from complexity theory.

andrekandre

2 hours ago

i'm tempted to say "all politics is downstream from economics", but really economics an politics is quite intertwined; its not surprise things are spiraling...

zeptonix

4 hours ago

"Subconsciously, I think I expected to be recognized for surpassing specialness."

zergrush

23 minutes ago

Foreigner who becomes Citizen of Japan = Still a gaijin (foreigner) to real Japanese