arun-mani-j
2 days ago
When I first learnt complex numbers in school, I couldn't understand their purpose or why they are called imaginary etc.
I checked where they are used and found examples of current, magnetism etc. But I couldn't understand, electricity is a measurable physical quantity, how can you use imaginary numbers there??
Then I searched internet and found a Stack Exchange answer telling the story and how, instead of, complex (sounds like difficult) or imaginary (sounds like not useful practically), if we had better terms for them, then it would have been easier for beginners to understand them more intuitively.
It's completely true in my case.
After learning usage of vectors, thanks to Godot, for rotation and movement, and then about matrix etc. I now feel like "complex" numbers etc. are the representation of data through multiple numbers where a single value (scalars) is not enough. I may not be right in strict mathematics terms, but at least that's how I was able to understand them.
bananaflag
2 days ago
I think it would have been clearer if they weren't called "numbers".
For example, look at matrices [1]: no one asks themselves whether they are "real" or not. We know that we have defined operations on arrays of numbers which are useful to some degree.
If complex numbers were just called "complexes", a lot of confusion would just wither away.
Also, interestingly, quaternions and octonions aren't called "numbers".
[1] Complex numbers may, of course, be seen as special kinds of matrices, but this is beside my point here.
prmph
2 days ago
Oh, but they can be considered numbers.
I guess what counts as a number is arguable. But -1 is a number, and yet it has two parts: the natural number, and the sign. Sqrt(2) is a number, and yet it cannot be written down exactly. It requires an algebraic representation.
Generally, I think we use the word "number" for mathematical objects that have some notions we associate with the natural number (which are what we most intuitively understand as numbers), like ordering, summation, a notion of zero, etc. Complex numbers do not have all of these, but they have enough that we consider them numbers.
Another way to think of this: most of these non-natural numbers arose as a way of being able to represent results of basic operations on natural numbers, that are not themselves natural numbers. These results could sometimes be operated on further to yield a natural number again. But if we did not invent new numbers for these, these result were not easily expressible, and led to gaps in our math frameworks. In fact, a lot of math progress was hampered by not recognizing these numbers, and progress followed once they were recognized. And the reason we call them numbers is that they arise from basic algebraic operations on natural numbers.
lambdas
2 days ago
They’re definitely numbers though -in many ways they’re nicer numbers than the Reals.
Complexes are overloaded as is - cellular, simplicial, chain etc.
munificent
2 days ago
We should call them "diternions".
joostdevries
2 days ago
I particularly like this book by Steven Pemberton. https://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/Numbers.pdf
Imaginary numbers never made sense to me in high school. But this book gradually builds it up in a way that made the conclusion positively intuïtive. Highly recommended!
BenoitP
2 days ago
To me their purpose only came clearly recently. They're just a way to rotate smoothly one dimension into another. And control the speed of the rotation.
x into y. Potential energy to kinetic energy. Charge into current.
Keeping this definition but going higher in the dimensions: x into y, y into z and z into x. Going meta, the x into y rotation defines a plane; And a plane going into another direction is a volume. (x into y) into z.
What made it click, what made it beautiful is Geometric Algebra:
Koshkin
2 days ago
> came clearly recently. They're just...
I assure you this is not the last enlightening moment that you are going have about what the complex numbers are.
> Geometric Algebra
Ah... Haven's heard about that one in quite some time...
ab71e5
2 days ago
I've come to understand it as something with both a magnitude and a phase. When you have a unity sine wave, it has two points per period where the magnitude is zero but those points have different phases.
rottc0dd
2 days ago
I really was surprised on this when learning about these in Welch labs [1] and 3b1b.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T647CGsuOVU&list=PLiaHhY2iBX...
ambicapter
2 days ago
> I now feel like "complex" numbers etc. are the representation of data through multiple numbers where a single value (scalars) is not enough.
Ok, now find a single term that you think would adequately describe that concept.
NackerHughes
2 days ago
A vector!
rustcleaner
2 days ago
'Imaginary' is a misnomer, they should actually be called Orthogonal Numbers instead since they lie on orthogonal axes.
user
a day ago
hingler36
2 days ago
Agreed, the naming system is atrocious. The one that really pisses me off at this point is that "real" numbers get to be called that. Imaginary numbers with rational coefficients are SIGNIFICANTLY more "real" than a converging infinite series, imo
ColinWright
2 days ago
Wait ... you think of the Reals as converging infinite series?
I think of them as pairs (L,R) of sets of rationals, with every in L less than or equal to every thing in R ...
rustcleaner
2 days ago
That is a surreal view of them. ;^)
stackghost
2 days ago
I had a calculus prof who described it thus:
Calculus is a mathematical model of the world, and it is wrong in the sense of the famous quote about "all models [being] wrong, but some are useful", so mathematicians used the imaginary unit almost like a hotfix for their model.
Whether that's an accurate/rigorous statement or not, it helped me as a learner.
You can, of course, express things like oscillation without i, using vectors and matrices. But the ability to use Euler's formula to express complicated sinusoids as compact exponentials with base e simply makes the analysis much easier. In the words of my prof, it's merely a mathematical structure to express things more easily that "regular calculus" isn't good at expressing.
To me, that made the apparent paradoxes of expressing e.g. phase angles and reactive power and stuff using i a lot easier to stomach.
ttoinou
2 days ago
You can use exponential with matrices as well.
That some people don’t want to understand deeply the tools they use don’t make their tools superficial or “hotfixes”
stackghost
2 days ago
I mean the guy has a PhD in mathematics so I'm sure he understands his tools deeply. Certainly more deeply than I did when I was an undergraduate in his class. Sometimes the right analogy, even if imperfect, is more helpful to build intuition than pages of rigorous proofs. Chill out.
ttoinou
2 days ago
Of course maths need intuition, it isn’t always incompatible with being rigorous
But yes some who have PhD in physics don’t always care about understanding deeply maths tools. Depends what you’re doing
stackghost
2 days ago
I’m not sure why you feel the need to keep arguing about this. I’m not going to go back to my Alma Mater and tell the prof that some nobody on hacker news doesn’t like an analogy he used 12 years ago.
Whatever point you’re trying to make is not working.
Go away.
ttoinou
a day ago
Im sorry if I come across as aggressive, Im myself chill and just here to talk, share and discover new things. Analogies are essential to learning I agree with you
user
2 days ago
MrBuddyCasino
2 days ago
So much of mathematics is just this.
karmakurtisaani
a day ago
The good old "if only they named it differently it would be easy".
It's just not true. Mathematics is far deeper and richer than pretty much any other field. The naming of things is not stopping you from understanding it, but the sheer magnitude of it. Yes, as an adult it's easy to give a new look at the things you were flooded with in college and understand a tiny fraction of it with time and no pressure, and conclude it was easy all along "if only it was done like ..."
Go ahead and keep trying to learn for weeks with fast pace and kind of crappy material, and you'll remember why it actually was difficult.