DishwasherBench – Can Frontier Models Stack a Dishwasher?

87 pointsposted 2 days ago
by mlukewizard
(github.com)

59 Comments

_puk

2 days ago

The obvious fork is "can frontier models stack a dishwasher to my wife's exacting standards".

I can't. So that would surely be proof of AGI.

mrweasel

2 days ago

"In every partnership, there is a person who stacks the dishwasher like a Scandinavian architect and a person who stacks the dishwasher like a raccoon on meth." - Someone online.

At home I'm the architect, my wife's the raccoon. I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such, but you can make it hard for yourself to unload, if you don't sort the items correctly.

dekhn

2 days ago

In my dishwasher (some bosch almost identical to the model in the simulation), if you put plastic storage containers upside down on the bottom rack, the force of the jets flip them over and they fill up and don't get clean. They also end up using more water (I think?) because there is water trapped in the dishwasher at the end of the cycle, and things don't dry. Also, if you put large things in particular places they prevent the jet arms from rotating.

Dishwasher physics matter. But I would never criticize a person in my family for loading the dishwasher the "wrong" way; I just sneak in and reorganize when nobody's looking.

wffurr

2 days ago

>> just sneak in and reorganize when nobody's looking.

This is the way. I am just happy when someone else, anyone else, actually puts dishes in the dishwasher.

jonners00

2 days ago

More than once a week in my teens, my dad used to coach me on (manual) dishwashing technique and it drove me mad. My teenager can't load the dishwasher for love nor money (rotating arms blocked, filthy plates two to a slot so water can't get between them, etc).There's been something a bit like mindfulness in just leaving him be and then remedying the issues after he's gone to bed, reminding myself while I do it, that I'll miss his shitty dishwasher loading technique when he moves out.

dekhn

2 days ago

What I've found is that large bulky items (pots, pans, etc) are usually cleaned easily manually, and doing so saves up lots more room for the plates and glasses in the dishwasher. The dishwasher then seems to run better/faster/more effectively, and I actually enjoy cleaning the large stuff for some reason.

fxwin

2 days ago

> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such

There are definitely more and less correct ways, but personally i think it's "wrong" to load it in a way that leaves the arms blocked or (not) tilt pieces that get excessive water pooling on top

viceconsole

2 days ago

My favorite wrong way is when someone completely covers a small item (ramekin, espresso cup) with a larger item (bowl, food storage container).

mlukewizard

2 days ago

I would totally do this, is this wrong? It still gets sprayed from the bottom no?

embedding-shape

2 days ago

> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such

You most definitely can, they're not magic! The water must hit the right spots and obviously stacking three plates without any space between leads to stuff not getting properly cleaned.

If you try to teach a kid to put the dishwasher you'll learn a ton of wrong ways of doing it! :)

notrealyme123

2 days ago

I think putting cups with the opening facing upward is very close to "technically correct, but very wrong"

freecodeio

2 days ago

shouldn't stacking like a raccoon on meth be the most optimal way though? since if they're too well stacked you risk water being unable to enter tight places

DougN7

2 days ago

The stacking regime is meant to maximize water flow and surface exposure to water jets, at least when optimized.

RaftPeople

2 days ago

> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such

I read our dishwashers manual and was surprised at the significant amount of detail about how to position silverware for optimal cleaning (e.g. where to place small spoons, where to place forks, where to place large spoons, etc.)

vforgione

2 days ago

> but you can make it hard for yourself to unload if you don’t sort the items correctly.

I learned a long time ago that the ability to recognize and exploit a structured system is the most emotionally satisfying thing in the world.

publlus_enigma

2 days ago

The question becomes: is it faster to sort during packing, or to sort during unpacking?

jojogeo

2 days ago

Never have truer words been spoken, I too score poorly on DishwasherBench wife mode. Drives her up the wall.

teekert

2 days ago

At our place it's opposite, I guess when you do it often enough you get a preferred method though a relentless optimization loop, which in the end ensures it's all clean, the plates are well separated only in 1 particular order, the glasses are placed to the left so all small pans fit at the right, deep plates are placed half over cutlery rack so they are supported and more fit in, small plates in front so all lids fit before them... etc etc etc.

stoneman24

2 days ago

Yep, I have a more optimised model of stacking than my wife’s ideas. This has lead to “discussions” (still at a friendly level) and the dish washer being placed in my list of responsibilities.

I think optimal configuration is very much a NP complete problem.

lambdaone

2 days ago

Just because a problem is NP-complete doesn't mean it's infeasible to produce "good enough" approximate solutions. The traveling salesman problem is a great example of this.

BobaFloutist

2 days ago

Not only that, the maximum n a dishwasher can hold is small enough that it can be fairly trivially solved within a reasonable amount of time...though to be fair, iterations are pretty slow, but I think that's fairly easily compensated for with axioms (silverware goes in the silverware spot)

stoneman24

2 days ago

Apologies, my OCD was showing.

It’s an interesting problem to pack the dishwasher with as many objects as possible and maintain the highest level of cleanliness. Sometimes, there’s an small thing leftover so then repack in a different configuration.

mvdwoord

2 days ago

Try explaining this to a raccoon.. on meth.

I did, once ;)

AlecSchueler

2 days ago

Are our wives' standards impossible to reach or are our husbands weaponising incompetence?

smileybarry

2 days ago

The obvious fork is, sadly, in the dishwasher. You can get it back in two hours.

mlukewizard

2 days ago

Inspired by Joma Tech's new YouTube video

Stacked loads are run against a dishwasher simulation calibrated to my own Bosch dishwasher

Playable by both humans and AI

Currently a WIP, simulations need refining before running a full benchmark, but keen to hear some feedback!

vessenes

2 days ago

Very cool and fun idea. This is a meta comment about the repo readme - there is an immense amount of what I would call ‘complaint smuggling’ / diffidence in the readme - basically Claude is uncomfortable about some of the claims vis a vis the status and embeds those negative feelings everywhere.

I suggest you have it scrub all of this from the readme; you’ll likely need to give it a few examples. It will improve readability a lot, and be less fatiguing to read. Plus if you scrub it all you won’t reprompt that attitude every time an agent reads the readme.

Btw I got Claude to give me the name “complaint smuggling” by giving it ten examples and asking it for a name. it’s an error pattern that’s so common I wanted to know what the model thought of it as - makes communicating about it really simple.

mlukewizard

2 days ago

Mmmm yea interesting, thanks for the feedback will push an update :)

codeulike

2 days ago

Can anyone confirm whether it simulates the spinning arm getting stuck on an item that juts downward through the top tray - thereby stopping the whole load from being washed properly.

Thats the most common problem in my dishwasher. It kindof looks like it would simulate that but they dont spell it out.

Come to think of it, if the players dont have an option to "spin the spinner by hand to make sure its not catching on anything" they're going to be in for a rough ride.

mlukewizard

2 days ago

100%, users check before kicking off a run whether the drawers close and the spinner spins

sandblast

2 days ago

> A verdict cannot be trusted for:

> A spray arm held still by an item: the plates above it keep their verdicts

walrus01

2 days ago

For added difficulty, have it 'stack' a 3D rendered volumetric plastic model of a pelican riding a bicycle, like if it were putting a child's toy in the dishwasher.

dom96

2 days ago

I love these novel ways to benchmark LLMs. I created one myself, I figured creating a programming language designed to confuse LLMs would be a good test, and it does seem to be: https://bench.killswitch-lang.org/.

I wonder if anyone has crafted a LLM benchmarks list website/github.

comrade1234

2 days ago

Years ago after my wife filled the dishwasher I commented that it looked like a 12-year-old filled it. I said it as a joke but it really hurt her and I still feel bad about it. That said, it no longer looks like that when she fills it...

lambdaone

2 days ago

Perhaps a better question would be "can frontier models write a program to effectively stack a dishwasher?"

mlukewizard

2 days ago

yea super interesting q

my feeling is that stacking a dishwasher involves enough image processing and computer-use (or more realistically robotics) that it's a frontier model job rather than a 'write a program to do it' job

but keen to hear if you disagree

dekhn

2 days ago

I have to admit that for many years I assumed a dishwasher physically filled the entire chamber with hot water to wash dishes. Then, one day a person opened up a dishwasher while it was running, took out a plate, clicked start, and closed the washer. My mental model literally changed in an instant.

nastrofa

2 days ago

This is so cool!

Imagine creating real simulated env for every physical task and using RL to train robots. That will be a game changer.

mlukewizard

2 days ago

yeaaa perhaps this is the future

embedding-shape

2 days ago

It was the future many years ago, today it's standard practice :)

judetechdevs

2 days ago

Both models’ loads came out 84-100% clean, so is the score mostly just how much they fit?

mlukewizard

2 days ago

Totally the opposite, there's a detailed dishwasher simulation under the hood: ray tracing, splash simulation, soak, heat, enzyme action

I calibrated it against my actual dishwasher by doing some test runs with baked egg

judofyr

2 days ago

As we know from physics, even the most sophisticated mechanisms (e.g. friction) often ends up having a very simple model (proportional to the normal force).

Sooo, the score is maybe mostly just how much they fit?

mlukewizard

2 days ago

Question for both: do you think that is also the case with a real-world dishwasher (it's mostly about getting stuff to fit), or do you think it's an issue with the current sim?

The sim needs work, for sure

TuringNYC

2 days ago

I love this! Cant wait to try this.

l1n

2 days ago

[flagged]

mlukewizard

2 days ago

sure the code isn't hand-written and it's a work in progress, but it's designed to be modelled and calibrated around my own dishwasher so it's verifiably non-slop