baron816
a day ago
Summary of why sovereign wealth funds are generally a bad idea: the governments don’t like to do things that could potentially harm their investments. If a government has large stakes in cigarette companies, they’re going to be resistant to regulate them.
There’s also plenty of opportunity for corruption. But even with safeguards, there’s going to be opportunities to steer investment towards favored companies and industries and away from those that oppose the administration or otherwise do things the administration doesn’t like (think of efforts to divest from Israel or fossil fuel companies).
“Just invest in the S&P”. Something like this would give substantial power to the index makers. But it also gives preference to already huge companies. Small, unlisted companies would be indirectly penalized by having to compete against companies with government funding.
aeternum
a day ago
In the grand scheme of things, the gov claiming a perpetual 21%+ of all income of AI (all) companies is not all that different from owning a small percent of said AI companies. The financials and even incentives are basically the same.
It's somewhat entertaining to watch both sides argue about this as if it's some major difference when both are actually aligned on wanting bigger gov and more gov ownership/control of corps (one party via taxes the other wants it direct).
JumpCrisscross
a day ago
> the gov claiming a perpetual 21%+ of all income of AI (all) companies is not all that different from owning a small percent of said AI companies
We don’t count reduced taxes as a loss in the same way as losses on equities owned. That changes the electoral incentives.
jfyi
a day ago
> gov ownership/control of corps
Corporations are literally government sponsored entities. Where do you think they get their limited liability and separate legal personhood from?
We should own a piece of every single one for that service we provide.
aeternum
a day ago
That's my point, the gov already owns a ~21% royalty on the income of every company that operates in the US via the corporate tax. And it's more than that if you consider other taxes.
jfyi
10 hours ago
Good, then we are in agreement that it's already on the table. No reason to avoid making some adjustments rapid iteration style.
scottyah
a day ago
Who is we and what is ownership? Taxes are nice because it's just straight cash, no meddling (other than the myriad of laws they must follow). "Ownership" meaning you want whatever political party/group in power in the moment to able to directly command businesses on top of adding laws and taking money seems a bit like overreach to me, in addition to being costly resource-wise.
jfyi
a day ago
We the people who the government represents as a whole, and it can take many forms, yeah, but I am pretty partial to direct ownership of a percentage. The value we provide to these entities deserves it.
skinfaxi
a day ago
> but I am pretty partial to direct ownership of a percentage.
What does that look like in practice?
user
a day ago
franktankbank
a day ago
That becomes a tail wagging the dog ehh? Fed the one giving them money and the corps tell you what to do. Where does democracy fit in?
baron816
a day ago
As they say, if you owe a million dollars to the bank, the bank owns you. But if you owe a billion dollars to the bank, you own the bank.
When an institution becomes financially dependent on something for its revenues, that something gains a lot of power over the institution.
jfyi
a day ago
> that something gains a lot of power over the institution.
Yeah, that hypothetical is terrifying! It's not like our entire government is in the pocket of the largest of these corporations anyway! That would be an entirely new scenario that we should avoid at all costs!
baron816
a day ago
There are countries where the entire government is the pocket of the largest corporations. The US is not one of those countries. It can get much worse if you allow it.
jfyi
a day ago
We clearly disagree, but that's ok.
idiotsecant
a day ago
Just because you have a bee in your car doesn't mean you should ignore the hive growing in the trunk. It's silly to reject all threats because a less severe version of that threat already exists.
jfyi
10 hours ago
See, the problem with your analogy is, the way I see it, you are the one ignoring the hive in the trunk.
idiotsecant
a day ago
I would make the case that government ownership of the machinery of commerce makes both worse. The money and power inherent to this arrangement is corrosive to both sides. Keep them separate and let each fight the other to the proper tension point. If we want revenue there is already a way to do that - we call it taxes
geysersam
a day ago
This is theory. If we look at the real world, do sovereign wealth funds typically invest in cigarettes? I don't think so. I think they typically have more stringent ethical guidelines than most regular funds.
I'm typically not in favor of sovereign wealth funds anyway. Because I don't buy the idea that the free market is always more efficient than the public sector, and if that's the case then investing the funds in the public sector, schools and improving health and social outcomes, is better than buying SpaceX even if they're going to the moon.
Of course there are exceptions.. if a country has more money than they know what to do with, it makes sense to pile it.
voxic11
a day ago
Its not a sovereign wealth fund, but China 100% owns China Tobacco and has generally avoided policy changes which could encourage people to stop smoking because it could hurt this extremely profitable company (China Tabacco has about 2x the before tax profit of Apple). https://www.theexamination.org/articles/deadliest-company-in...
jfyi
a day ago
> the governments don’t like to do things that could potentially harm their investments. If a government has large stakes in cigarette companies, they’re going to be resistant to regulate them.
The ideal in a democracy would be that we behave as adults and make the decision where to draw the lines.
...and yeah, corruption is a problem, but it's going to find a way regardless of what we throw at it. We would be better off handling the existing corruption than worrying about some hypothetical future corruption as a reason we can't try new things.
baron816
a day ago
I think what we’ve found with the current administration is that people will use every last surface for corruption and power that they can. The more you opportunities you give the government to be corrupt, the more corrupt they’re going to be.
scottyah
a day ago
Also of note: this is not the first administration to take controversial action. Pretty much every government ever has shown that more power = more corruption.
redwood
a day ago
Doesn't need to be the S&P. Can simply be the entire market float market share weighted
baron816
a day ago
That’s still providing an implicit subsidy to listed corporations
user
a day ago
FrustratedMonky
a day ago
There's a reason every country with a sovereign wealth fund is a dictatorship, its a really handy way to launder money, steal. Which is why Trump wants it.
carefree-bob
a day ago
Norway is a dictatorship?
Avicebron
a day ago
To play devils advocate, the fact Norway has a coherent society/population makes it dictatorship of the demos. Which of course is evil since people who refuse to integrate into society aren't allowed to dicate terms.
FrustratedMonky
a day ago
One working model versus a dozen others? Kind of like, I didn't wear a seat belt and lived, so guess we don't need them.