WD-42
2 days ago
Writing is thinking in every situation, not just limited to commit messages. This is a fact that I'm concerned people are forgetting, or worse never understood to begin with.
bunderbunder
2 days ago
I returned to doing a lot of my own coding for this reason.
I don't mind farming out the more monotonous bits to AI. When I was letting an agent handle the whole implementation for me, though, I found that I was rediscovering all the pitfalls of waterfall-style development. Because I was doing waterfall-style development. I was trying to pin down all the details in a plan document up front, which is inevitably the point in time where I know the absolute least about the best way to accomplish the task. And then I let the agent do the rest for me, which undermines my opportunity to learn and understand more.
The result was continual accumulation of bad decisions and unnecessary technical debt. The only difference between now and back in the bad old days of 20 years ago is this time instead of being the put-upon code monkey I had become the boneheaded engineering manager who isn't paying attention to the code and doesn't realize what a brittle mess it's become.
fasterik
2 days ago
This. I've recently (re-)discovered the importance of using writing to force myself to confront my assumptions and gaps in knowledge. It's easy to fool yourself into thinking that you understand something if you haven't made it concrete and explicit by exercising your own brain. Arguably, this extends beyond writing in the conventional sense to many cognitive domains: mathematics, programming, physics, engineering, etc. AI should help the process of thinking, not replace it.
msdz
2 days ago
Your point rings home hard to me at the moment, as I’ve recently been trying to write up several small-ish topics in blog form, so as to have a link ready to share when an oft-discussed topic inevitably comes up again online, and some of those arguments, while I had read up on them in the past, include things I’m not entirely familiar with.
And I’ll just say, after this exercise I can definitely concur that writing exposes gaps in your thinking very fast. Especially when you’re trying to explain your point to someone who is new to the topic.
"Writing is nature's way of letting you know how sloppy your thinking is."
– Dick Guindongexla
2 days ago
This also gives you some surface area for LLMs to help you out in writing rather than code. Have it give an adversarial response or whatever you think is important. Then you can also see what is obviously wrong with the LLM's argument along with some nuance or interesting points you may have missed. Then you can have it pull in upstream sources of knowledge done on the topic, which is something that has been game changing revealing at times for me. "Here's the text from which all else flows, it was written 60 years ago, notice that nothing on this list has been written in the last 20 years." You know you got a keeper when that happens.
ModernMech
2 days ago
Did you think about this comment or are you just repeating something you heard and that’s been said in every discussion on HN about writing and AI?
WD-42
2 days ago
I read the linked article, thought the idea was generalizable, and posted that thought. Something wrong with that?
ModernMech
2 days ago
"Writing is thinking" is being repeated all the time lately to the point it seems like a meme.
WD-42
2 days ago
Does that make it untrue?
ModernMech
2 days ago
I would say probably most memeing is not really thought provoking or inducing. I agree most of the time writing can help collect one's thoughts but it can also be completely thoughtless. Probably what matters more is the specific process.
user
2 days ago
bgun
2 days ago
Your point seems to reduce to “bad writing=bad thinking, better writing=better thinking” which to me seems to support the original point, not refute it.
ModernMech
2 days ago
I’m not going to elevate memeing to thinking, no. If that’s the bar then using ai is just as much thinking as writing and the whole “writing is thinking” meme is pointless.
customguy
2 days ago
What is "memeing" in this context? From what I can see, it's just someone claiming something "seems" like a meme to them because it's repeated a lot. Is the idea that getting enough sleep is healthy also a "meme"? That Alzheimer and cancer suck and have no upsides? What's the actual criticism here, feeling left behind on an insight many other people already attained?
bunderbunder
2 days ago
I'm reminded of that Hitchens quip about interpreting ad hominem arguments as a tacit concession that you've made a good point. If they had a more substantive rebuttal then they would have led with that instead.
The memeing accusation wasn't technically an ad hominem, but it does at least live on that side of town.
ModernMech
a day ago
> What's the actual criticism here
I stated this in an earlier post: "Probably what matters more is the specific process."
> Is the idea that getting enough sleep is healthy also a "meme"?
Yes actually.
> That Alzheimer and cancer suck and have no upsides?
Maybe? I don't think that qualifies, It's more like an emotional response to a disease.
> What is "memeing" in this context?
Repeating memes. In this case "writing is thinking" is a meme in the culturally transmitted idea sense. I don't think it qualifies as thinking because it's just the mechanical propagation of those memes through the culture. So if we're going to classify that and all other stuff one writes down as thought and elevate it, I don't see why prompting an AI isn't among that.
customguy
a day ago
And how do memes get propagated "mechanically"? People say things like "the sky is blue" or that cancer sucks because they happen to agree, not because they heard it and just repeat whatever they heard all the time. Accusing someone of parroting something, instead of actually meaning it, is such a cop-out.
I mean sure, "writing is thinking" is shortening something, like "sharing is caring" does. Of course different things are not the same things. But it's not something people just "repeat", and when you ask them why they say it, they can't give you anything. Maybe that's why you're neither asking (why they say that, what they mean etc.) nor telling (in what way you disagree, what you think instead etc.).
> So if we're going to classify that and all other stuff one writes down as thought and elevate it, I don't see why prompting an AI isn't among that.
(IMO) of course it is, who said otherwise? Just the output isn't.
JambalayaJimbo
2 days ago
[dead]
1718627440
2 days ago
Recalling, recategorizing and expressing is still thinking?
customguy
2 days ago
The insight that writing helps to reflect on and structure thoughts is as old as it is trivially obvious.
> If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them.
- George Orwell
customguy
a day ago
Turns out he never said that, sorry: https://quotle.info/who-said/if-people-cannot-write-well-the...
I still think there is some truth in it, just but it could be expressed less crudely and less arrogantly. For me trying to think honestly is way more important than how "sophisticated" it is.