cmiles8
5 hours ago
Headline is misleading. Cheaper on per-mile operating costs but typically more expensive to purchase and insure. There’s also a nasty depreciation curve to contend with. Nobody wants a 10 year old Tesla, but a 10 year old well mentioned petrol car still has a ton of life left in it.
It still often ends up a bit cheaper across comparable vehicles but not a slam dunk and nowhere near as good as the headline suggests.
stinos
5 hours ago
Headline is misleading
Honest question: how else would one interpret 'cheaper to drive', if not 'cheaper per-mile operating costs'? Wouldn't they have used plain 'cheaper than' if they would have meant 'purchase+operating'?
cmiles8
5 hours ago
Because driving includes a lot more costs than just fuel. And as others are calling out, nobody wants a used EV so deprecation is a real cost to every day regardless of if the car is driven or not.
tverbeure
4 hours ago
> driving includes a lot more costs than just fuel
Oil changes, break pads, oil filters, spark plugs, …
For whatever reason, my wife’s car needs yearly scheduled dealership visits that always cost a few hundred. Meanwhile, my 5 year old EV has had none of that, other than one of those recalls that required a technician to park 15 minutes on our driveway to tighten some bolt (which my wife’s car also had, but it took another visit to the dealership.)
The depreciation thing is true, but I drive my cars into the ground anyway, so it’s not a factor for me.
bryanlarsen
an hour ago
A few years ago used EV's had a lot less depreciation than gasoline vehicles. Now it's the other way around. And in a few years it'll change again.
Right now the lowest depreciation is on cars like the Honda Civic. Used buyers want a right sized highly reliable vehicle. The average EV is smaller than the average petrol car, and high mileage EV's are far more reliable than high mileage petrols.
neilalexander
4 hours ago
I think "nobody wants a used EV" will change, there is already a growing amount of evidence that battery deterioration is nowhere near as bad as feared on average. ICE vehicles also tend to get less efficient over time as well due to wear and tear, build-up, degrading sensors etc, it's just that nobody talks about that.
prmoustache
2 hours ago
It will really depends on charging infrastructure as well.
There is a large intersection of people who only buy second hand cars and who have to park them in the streets or in shared parkings. If you can't charge at home, owning an EV is much more a hassle, especially if there are very few chargers around (which is the case in my area) and charging at dedicated third party charging station in much less interesting from a financial point of view.
TeMPOraL
an hour ago
Business idea to solve all the battery complaints:
Make cars work off power tools batteries.
Take e.g. Bosch AMP Share 18V 8.8 Ah bricks[0] or equivalents. Back-of-the-napkin, you'd need about one per 1km of range (+/- various factors). Put them in racks of 5, and allow people to swap out dead racks for charged ones at gas stations[1].
This would give regular people back their favorite experience of gas stations, while preserving environmental and economical benefits. For example:
- People riding short routes could run with only 20%-40% of the racks in. Means they won't need to carry as much mass around. This is like people today who always keep their gas tank half empty or even emptier, to not waste fuel on carrying fuel around.
- People riding long routes could take extra racks in their trunk to exchange range; people operating other equipment could get extra racks for it at the station, too -- same as people today do when coming with gas canisters to the station.
- In case you run out of power in the middle of the road, for some reason, someone else can help you by lending you their battery pack - even easier than lending you gasoline.
- No more worry about battery life degradation - you're constantly swapping out packs, never using the same ones for more than few days or weeks, and it's an activity you are doing regularly - so people would finally realize that batteries are replaceable and stop complaining about used EVs being as good as used iPhones.
- Overall preserves established economics of gas stations and attached restaurants and service centers; every driver born in the last 100 years understands that and will find it intuitive.
- Bonus - the "power tool batteries" was more of a joke establishing scale; actual implementation would be probably sealed "rack-sized" packs with different trade-offs, but on the off chance it is made power-tool compatible, so much extra utility opens - from charging at home, to powering power tools :).
(I think the mistake of the OG idea of swappable battery packs of yore was to optimize for swapping time and keep battery as a unit. Breaking it down into pieces that weigh 5kg or less means you can reuse existing infrastructure.)
--
[0] - Not an ad, I just have bunch of those and invent more and more silly ways to power things from them.
[1] - The new "battery passport" regulations around the world already solve some of the technical issues here.
kyleee
an hour ago
That would be a thief magnet in the UK
otherme123
4 hours ago
Right now I would hesitate to buy a used car with 5 years and a 100% of 300 km range but down to 250 km due to battery wear, when I could buy a new car with 500 km range. Owners of first Leafs got hit by already low initial ranges (~120km), so even a 20-30% battery wear have huge impact or car usability. That would change when ranges stops growing (about 700 km, maybe, the same as ICEs?), and used cars have the same range than buying new. 600 km instead of 700 km? Good enough.
TeMPOraL
2 hours ago
Nobody is doing battery swaps yet? That sounds like an obvious thing? Or is the mobile "glued in battery not serviceable component" thinking spread like poison so much that people don't consider it?
If the rest of the car is fine, it should be one visit to a shop to swap out old battery for new (and the shop handling recycling/disposal of the old one), and off you go with car good as new.
jillesvangurp
5 hours ago
> typically more expensive to purchase and insure
The cheapest car for sale in the UK is an EV at this point. The market is rapidly filling with EVs in essentially all price segments. Most EVs are still under warranty when they hit the second hand market for the simple reason most EVs on the market were produced in their typical warranty period.
dingaling
an hour ago
> The cheapest car for sale in the UK is an EV at this point.
It's still 12,000UKP more expensive than the paid-off ICE 15-yo I have on my driveway, which is a heck of a lot of petrol.
thelastgallon
4 hours ago
Also in Australia: AUD 19,900 driveway (means taxes, registration etc included), or about US$14K: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49772728
Quite possibly China and many other countries.
(edit) There's a comment further down, cheapest car in UK is EV: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49875856
bArray
5 hours ago
> There’s also a nasty depreciation curve to contend with. Nobody wants a 10 year old Tesla, but a 10 year old well mentioned petrol car still has a ton of life left in it.
It's worse, there's almost no second hand market for the vehicles. There is barely anybody trained to repair them (even if they will sell you the parts) and if they are crashed significantly it's almost always a write-off.
> It still often ends up a bit cheaper across comparable vehicles but not a slam dunk and nowhere near as good as the headline suggests.
Only because of government meddling. Fuel is almost uniquely taxed 3 times, which pays for subsidies to pay for green energy initiatives.
I think I'll hold out with my diesels and petrols and see how this all goes.
thedougd
4 hours ago
In the US, the used market for Teslas is quite strong, even into the high miles. I recently purchased a used EV and found the Teslas weren’t discounted enough from new for my liking. They moved quickly too, except for the ones with salvage titles.
I ended up getting an off-lease Hyundai EV because they tanked in value in part due to their ICCU failures, which are now covered under an extended warranty.
tpm
an hour ago
> there's almost no second hand market for the vehicles
this is very simply completely untrue
mschuster91
4 hours ago
> There is barely anybody trained to repair them (even if they will sell you the parts)
No longer true at least in most decently urban/semi-urban Western countries/regions.
The parts shortage is real though, it's always been a plague for Tesla, and most established manufacturers never really recovered from Covid (and in the case of wiring harnesses, Ukraine) as a lot of their supply chain closed down shop for good.
> and if they are crashed significantly it's almost always a write-off.
That's true of all modern vehicles, no matter the engine type. Crash resiliency comes at a cost, the frame absorbs the crash energy and permanently deforms. Yes you can bend even an aluminium frame back into shape but it will never be as strong as before, and anything carbon-composite or plastic is out of the question as well.
londons_explore
4 hours ago
Crash damaged cars have loads of good components though - typically allowing nearly all non-crash repairs to be done by just swapping parts about, unless the manufacturer has got software locks on swapping parts.
mschuster91
4 hours ago
Many legislations implicitly require parts locking by anti tamper measures, which is killing off the spare market as well.
pwagland
5 hours ago
Depends on the specific car, Tesla's are notoriously expensive to insure, but I believe that the Volkswagen ID series is much more reasonable.
cmiles8
5 hours ago
They’re extremely expensive to repair for one, which drives up the rates since many are just written off after relatively minor accidents.
consp
4 hours ago
The torque/hp figures also do not help since they are in correlation with abuse and thus higher crash rates. e.g. a Tesla just for liability is significantly more expensive due to hp, you get nothing for crashing it, same weight Model 3 vs ID.3 both 60kwh but 205 vs 150kw is 115 vs 85 euros as a first owned car for a 35 year old and it drops quickly with less power (rates also differ for where you live, don't try to insure an audi with specific trim of wheels on some cities).
tonyedgecombe
4 hours ago
The main reason is the performance. Many early EV's had blistering acceleration and this was reflected it the number of claims insurance companies were getting.
buggeryorkshire
4 hours ago
My girlfriends X4 was stolen 4 months ago. Replaced it with an Audi A6 etron. Her insurance renewal came up 30 quid cheaper at 510 last week! We were stunned.
The EV was definitely the right choice, due to luck rather than knowing Trump was about to kick off with Iran. It costs us £8 to charge the car overnight for around 380 miles range.
piltdownman
4 hours ago
They tend to be in much lower insurance bands and tend to incurr significantly lower motor tax - comprehensive policies for EVs are higher due to the (current) dearth of parts and licensed repair centres versus ICE cars running on multi-year platforms or sharing parts across lines that share a single monocoque design (e.g. VW, Ford, Toyota versus Tesla and their publicised parts shortages).
The problem is that, for economy of scale reasons, Comprehensive insurance is often cheaper than third-party cover in the UK, despite people tending to never claim so as to keep their no-claims bonus and not spike their premium out of affordability. With 3rd Party the EV option would be cheaper as they tend to be involved in less accidents, and when they do they tend to dissipate more impact on their side due to more modern crumple-zones and safety features.
postalrat
3 hours ago
I drive a 12 year old ev. It was cheap to buy and drive and I don't see any difference in insurance costs.
throwa356262
4 hours ago
Also it is extremely expensive to repair some EVs.
Why do you think Tesla insurance is that high?
jacobp100
4 hours ago
The cost of servicing an EV is much cheaper, however
pornel
5 hours ago
10-year old Teslas are great, you just need a sticker "bought before Elon went crazy".
applicative
an hour ago
The headline could not be more precise. Suppose for example that I am faced with a choice which of two cars to rent. The considerations you advance are for the rental agency. The headline datum is what matters to the client.
Car ownership is in any case kind of a boomer thing, not to put too fine a point on it, and maybe your reasoning reflects this. In Europe and US occasions for rental arise for younger demographics and in different ways.