Bits of Mesa that are now extremely low density suburban development were at one point large Hohokam pueblos. It's not an entirely fair comparison because it's essentially comparing high density midrise apartments to some of the least dense suburban sprawl in the US, but it's not wrong.

At a more regional level, the area around Cortez, CO is less densely populated than it was simply because virtually no one lives there now. Kayenta, much of the Navajo nation, the upper Gila region, etc are similar.

You can scarcely throw a stone in Phoenix without hitting an old pueblo. I don't see why continent-wide demographics have any relevance.

That's right. A/C changed everything.

Honestly, Arizona is unlivable unless you are an AC repairman.

> it's understood that it's meant as translated

I find it best to never underestimate how pedantic strangers on programming related forums can be, so good we've got that out of the way.

I imagine you'd enjoy Martin Porter's four Principles for Quotations and his two pieces on sourcing the Edmund Burke BogoQuote:

* https://tartarus.org/martin/essays/burkequote.html

* https://tartarus.org/martin/essays/burkequote2.html

( and possibly even Porter's paleoCompSci work on stemming: https://tartarus.org/martin/PorterStemmer/ )

> It's really curious why people who never read Dostoyevsky make up quotes for him with phrases that nobody with a good command of the Russian language could have written.

It's a solid quip, almost serviceable as a Reader's Digest Condensed Book one page summary of Dostoyevsky prison book save for being too good (in English at least) for that sad US affront to literature.

People make up quotes for all manner of reasons, imperfect memory, a need to summarise, it's a joy to tumble both rocks and words to knock off some rough edges and brighten up a gem. Attribution to "elsewhere" is also common enough -- it can upsell your own work by attribution to a great name, it can deflect criticism if you've only polished a turd.

As curious questions go though, why not attribute it to a translation of Solzhenitsyn or Henri Charrière, (it's in the spirit of Oscar Wilde or Stephan Fry perhaps, but their works are already in English and a little too familiar for the bogoquote treatment (maybe)).

Norway learned the hard way that the American method doesn't work, and the current reoffending rate is the result of half a century of moving the other direction.

I wish to have the confidence of an American opinion on anything that's different than the US. Studies show that resocialization works and has worked for decades without a sign of "learning it the hard way" in sight

And you mean that?

We have indigeous people and historic effidence, that kids with mental health issues were kept hidden from the rest of a village, sometimes in cages and on chains.

We know very well that the education system around the planet cateres to the masses not to the ones with disabilityes, ADHD etc.

Human beings are complex, any education system is not and its not reflecting the diversity of humans.

In japan for example, kids have to cleanup there own class rooms, wonderful concept, any other real country which adopted that?

Equal parents doesn't need to mean equal circumstances. Times and culture change, parents age, family circumstances change over time, their environment outside the home is different, different friends, different experiences, etc. There's a myriad of factors that can lead to very different circumstances for siblings.

For a site populated by people that deal with complex technical systems on a daily basis, the idea that systems also exist and shape our outcomes in every day life seems to frequently be a foreign concept.

Its a brain, a brain which gets teached how to act and behave.

Some learn how to think critical, some don't. Some are intelligent, some are empathic, some don't understand the world very well.

Don't simplify this by a snarky and ignorant comment.

I'm not even against moving people out of our society, its fucked up enough that this is necessayr, but i'm against cruelty and i'm for helping.

I'm not against the idea of the society taking control over the life of one of its own (lets be fair, our planet is small, we are too interconnected) we can't just put people somewere else.

But cruelty shouldn't be part of this. Help and rehabiliation

They aren't ontologically evil, they aren't "just bad." They choose to be evil.

And?

My comment is independent form the others.

Yeah feel free to continue thinking that simple and be ignorant.

Its easier eh?

But lets be clear, you will be on the reciving side or have been already anyway.

Or if never, you speak from a point of privilige...

You hear that? You're ignorant and privileged for not wanting your car broken into.

Society or our villages before a planet full of 8 billion people were responsible.

Everyone of us was born to a mother and father. And yo utell me if someone isn't born 'right' we should do what? Kill them? I think Hitler tried that. Not really sure were you are going with this.

Do you really believe our society is really trying to help people? We are sitting in front of our television, watch reality tv and do other shit. We have more than enough capacity to help others. We just don't. This doesn't make it fair in any sense for every human being we brought into existens.

I don't get your point with the toddler.

> I've never had to teach a toddler what to do when another child takes their toy. Somethings are just innate.

It is safe to guess you dont have much experience with toddlers or kids. Yes some needs to be taught what to do in that situation.

Also, you are using language of dignity and rights in pretty manipulative and dishonest way.

Compare to places that actually care about reform, like Norway.

I disagree, I think it adds context that the political climate of the time was more complicated and involved than the original point. It was a place where you couldn't farm and were under constant attack, during that time.

That's why I added the context about European settlers, it was the States that were drawing the lines and they labeled it "no man's land", look into the history of Beaver County.

Please take 5 seconds to fact check yourself with a very quick query against your information source of choice.

Over ~95 degrees, a fan blowing on a human acts as a convection oven, increasing body temperature while dehydrating the body.

This is greatly exacerbated in extreme heat.

CDC guidance is to avoid using a fan in extreme heat conditions unless it is combined with a cooling source and careful hydration. Once again, not exactly an option in a Texas prison.

> cools below ambient

ambient and body temperature arent coupled items there

have you never used a convection oven?

Yup! I was raised evangelical and the pastors would brush away this passage as not being translated accurately where they would twist it to justify why you needed to give more money to the church because in the next life you'd be rewarded with riches.

It's a sick belief system.

> How does punishment work without cruelty?

My mother spanked me when I misbehaved. She caused real pain as punishment.

It was never cruel.

Punishment and cruelty are not equivalent.

Please note, I am not in favor of spanking children, and never spanked mine.

Now as to your final point, that justice is the state taking revenge on behalf of the victims. I replied to you above that I see the validity of this, and for the same reasons you give (discourage eternal feuds). And for those same reasons Justice is restraint. At most equivalent harm, no more than an eye for an eye.

I think it was your anger that made you say these ethics we both share are bullshit rules designed to hurt your family.

Now in the current case, for that point to stand, we need to ensure that the prisoners have in fact harmed identifiable others. Google tells me "Roughly 40% of inmates in Texas prisons are incarcerated for non-violent offenses". Thus 40% of the time, there is no cause for vengeance.

And where prison is vengeance, if it is just, it needs to be restrained. Not cruel. Not unusual. Just as punishment is not cruelty, justice is not cruelty.

For other readers, as I mentioned above, while I see a valid ethical stance behind NoMoreNicksLeft's anger and hurt, I do not share it. I seek mercy, and as for Justice, "Justice is mine sayeth the Lord"-- in other words, I leave it to God. I find it sick that the US, the "land of the free" has the highest incarceration rate in the world. Look, I've had bad interactions with bonafide unredeemable unrehabilitable psychopaths, and I'd like to see such people locked up for life. But I do not wish them cruelty beyond the innate cruelty of life behind bars.

Then that's what they should have written. Leaving it ambiguous gives us the opportunity to take someone who says cruelty is the point at their word, though. They want people to suffer, they are a sadist.

That charitable interpretation still doesn't save it, unless they have a magical plan to identify and free all the wrongfully convicted/plea-dealt.

Ok, so as an athiest, could you do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly with your beliefs?

Your comment on which god you might choose suggest you are not a fan of mercy. Have you ever made a mistake and wished for mercy for yourself? Have you ever received forgiveness that maybe you didn't think was deserved, if even only from you family?

I can agree with you that justice calls for punishment in response to a harm, and thus harming the person who caused the first harm. And if one considers any intentional harm to another as cruelty, then yes, "the purpose of punishment is cruelty". However, justice also limits the cruelty. The earliest example is "an eye for an eye"-- because the prior system was "a death for an eye" or "I burn your village for an eye", and Hammurabi saw that this lead to endless blood feuds. Vendetta, i.e. you hurt me so now I cause you and your family as much pain as I possibly can, that is not justice.

In fact, I was taking your side in this argument. Many others talk about prison as rehabilitation and keeping society safe, totally dropping the psychological need of the victim for some sense of vengeance. And while I agree with those others, and prefer to leave the vengeance to God rather than to the prison system, I took your side and legitimized the victims need for vengeance.

I am sorry that you have such anger that you saw this as bullshit rules from someone who doesn't care for you and wants to disadvantage you.

I read it as he wants them to die of heat stroke, because their lives are unimportant and not cherished by God.

>Everyone loves to pretend they want rehabilitation but also wants someone else to do it.

People on the left love to pretend this, perhaps. Those of us on the right make no such pretense. It's about punishment, sequestration, and deterrence in that order. Rehabilitation doesn't even enter our minds.

Why do you pretend? It wouldn't surprise anyone if you were to just be honest and that you don't care about rehabilitation either, it's rather that you don't want a justice system at all. We all know that already. There's no reason to hide it.

At the same time prison shouldn't be deadly. 85F versus 110F is the difference between uncomfortable and death.

>Without clear, just, punishment within society, we will revert to vigilantism and chaos.

The problem is this doesn't really seem to have any relation to the punishment. In the US we love to think that beating someone to a pulp has a strong effect on their future actions that lead to the beating but redactivism rates do not show any strong correlations here at all. Things like education, living conditions, and wealth are far more correlated.

> But I also fully understand the point of prison is /punishment/... Prison is not supposed to be pleasant and comfortable...

I appreciate the thoughtfulness with which you present your view, and also see it's validity-- that one purpose of prison is for the government to take a measured and limited 'revenge' for the victims of harm. Where the alternative is blood feuds.

Thus prison should not be comfortable, for those rightfully convicted of crimes involving harm TO OTHERS.

But by this same line, that the government's actions should be measured and limited. Prison should not be cruel, nor should the punishments be unusual.

the point iant punishment though, its slavery and slave labour.

the laws are written to make sure certain people are easy to press into forced labour