metalspot
4 hours ago
I have done a fair amount of low level performance optimization with Opus 5 and its reasoning is still very poor. Like why is CRC so slow and going through loops until I ask it if is using hardware instructions and it tells me it is using its own hand coded implementation poor. Reasoning about l1/l2/l3 cache hit ratios and their implications basically throwing darts at the wall, in the wrong room. If you give it a benchmark feedback loop then it might get there eventually but still massive alpha for low level systems engineers who instinctively know how this stuff works and can now automate 99% of the grind.
bee_rider
3 hours ago
> Reasoning about l1/l2/l3 cache hit ratios and their implications basically throwing darts at the wall, in the wrong room. If you give it a benchmark feedback loop then it might get there eventually but still massive alpha for low level systems engineers who instinctively know how this stuff works and can now automate 99% of the grind.
I suspect a lot of the training set for this sort of thing is people online speculating about cache performance incorrectly.
louthy
an hour ago
Speaking as somebody who is a performance geek, my knowledge came from relentless experimenting over the years (starting in the 8 bit era). Beyond the basics, I haven’t seen much on high-performance engineering online. To learn, you need to do the hard yards and I think performance tweaking becomes almost instinctive rather than something driven by a hard set of rules.
At a low enough level, every performance tweak becomes unique and bespoke.
Of course, you could find people online talking about how to write high-performance code, but beyond a few basic techniques, their advice may not work for you — nobody can write a generalist article about performance engineering that will definitely solve the problem you have right now.
Arguably, there are fewer patterns for an LLM to infer as highly optimised code tends to become more and more opaque in the search for a nanosecond here or there.
cogman10
an hour ago
I don't disagree, but IMO, a lot of code doesn't get to the point where those very low level techniques drive performance. Like, yes, if you are doing some heavy floating point math then that's where you end up needing it. However, in a lot of code finding hot paths and often simply switching out a O(n^2) for an O(n log n) or faster.
Getting and using tools to find hotpaths is generally the most important performance tweaking skill.
louthy
38 minutes ago
I mean, sure, but it really does depend on what you're doing. If you're working on a library with collection-types and you want to make each iteration as fast as possible, then roll up your sleeves. If you're writing a compiler and you want your language's source-code to finish compiling this week, roll up the sleeves. If you're working on a game-engine and you want to draw more than everyone else, roll up the sleeves...
There are plenty of real-world reasons why you'd want to get knee deep in this stuff. I wasn't suggesting not using tools (I've literally spent the day knee-deep in JetBrains' memory and tracing tools!), but those tools can only tell you what is happening now, not what to do to improve it.
Profiling is, of course, essential. But performance tweaking can be quite a laborious process: if you're judging things by big-O notation, then that's a different level above the real low-level tweaking (imho of course). Picking the correct data-structures is all in the 101 of performance engineering. That's in the literature. But it's all too basic and simplistic. Most performance minded engineers wouldn't need a profiling tool to know which data-structure to use.
At the smallest level there's a lot of mental theory building and experimentation as you try out different approaches, which is where the instinct and intuition starts to build. I never see any of that in discussions about performance engineering.
cogman10
10 minutes ago
> but those tools can only tell you what is happening now, not what to do to improve it.
They tell you what's happening now, but they also tell you if what you've done has had a positive impact.
> If you're judging things by big-O notation, then that's a different level above the real low-level tweaking (imho of course).
I completely agree. My point isn't that Big-Oh is low level, but rather that Big-Oh is often enough for most programming problems. Even in some of your examples like a compiler, game engine, or collection library, the big oh matters and if it's wrong, that can be a lot more important than shaving 0.1% on writing a function in a low level fashion. Big-Oh is gotten wrong a surprising amount of time even though it's 101 level stuff.
> At the smallest level there's a lot of theory building and experimentation as you try out different approaches, which is where the instinct and intuition starts to build. I never see any of that in discussions about performance engineering.
Oh because people get these things wrong all the time. That's why performance engineering stresses that you test, test, test and know what your testing and know why your testing could be wrong or corrupted. You should not trust your intuition because things change and it isn't always correct.
A good example of how easy it is to get measuring wrong. Imagine you start tweaking a function and you measure that your application became 1% faster. Was it the work you did on that function? Surprisingly, not always (at least not directly). Sometimes, it's the case that when you work on a function you re-align other functions as the machine code has to go it memory. It's possible that an undiscovered misaligned while loops was actually causing a large portion of your performance spill and by tweaking the function here, you aligned the while loop (or maybe a few of them). And, importantly, a new change somewhere else might re-unalign that same while loop.
You walk away thinking you've learn some low level lesson when in actuality your bit twiddling simply accidentally fixed something somewhere else.
This is why measuring is so important but also good measuring is even more important.
devin
3 hours ago
I would think it's that the kinds of places which value this kind of knowledge often have major disincentive to share it. I'm thinking of HFT firms as one example.
cgh
23 minutes ago
Around six years ago, I worked for a switch manufacturer and we had insanely optimized networking code that will never see the public light of day.
lordnacho
3 hours ago
Can you give it the valgrind suite to loop over? I have yet to try that with AI, but maybe the cachegrind tool is enough to help it.
kccqzy
2 hours ago
I see the same thing, except I was working on high level performance reasoning. Whenever a piece of code has multiple steps that require multiple algorithms to work, AI almost always fails to guess which step is the slowest and what causes that step to be slow. Even Fable makes wrong guesses. You definitely need to give them a benchmark feedback loop.
Analemma_
an hour ago
Are there actually any humans who can reason about things like cache performance from first principles? I know there are some people who think they can, and I suspect they're fooling themselves. The one iron principle of micro-optimization at the level of cache hits is "measure, measure, measure", you just cannot think your way to the right answer on the first try. Processors and instruction sets today are too complicated, and tips that worked on one generation might be neutral or worse on the very next revision, making all the cargo cult knowledge passed around on this topic at best useless. I'll echo one of the sibling commenters here and say that LLMs probably bullshit their way to answers on questions like this because that's what humans online do as well.
If you give an LLM a proper testing harness and feedback loop to actually generate hypotheses, test them and revise them, I suspect it will do much better.
jandrewrogers
40 minutes ago
Yes, people can demonstrably do this with high reliability.
Some humans carry detailed models of CPU microarchitectures in their heads, against which they can design code from first principles that will be nearly ideal on the first try. It is repeatable and verifiable. The best people can accurately predict the measured performance before writing a line of code.
Measurement is useful in cases where the model of software and hardware interaction is materially incomplete. In most cases this is because the people writing the software have insufficient understanding of the hardware. Having a limited understanding of the hardware is a choice.
It would be surprising if this wasn't possible.