Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

119 pointsposted 12 hours ago
by upofadown

61 Comments

moeffju

7 hours ago

I realize this is off topic, but why do people use Claude of all models to write these, when its style is so obvious and so grating? I just immediately hit Back on the first Claudism.

sigmoid10

an hour ago

Not to mention 13 em-dashes in a 500 word post. At this point you may as well ask Claude yourself about news and cut out the middleman. That'll also cut into their attempts to manipulate your opinion.

Dlemlo

6 hours ago

Did you care about the writing style of Rex Edison before and now you are disappointed?

That page is not the New Yorker.

And don't get me wrong, but the writing of normal newspaper became shit through the internet not due to claude. You have the clickbait header, than you have the subtext which repeats the clickbait header, then you had the first paragraph which repeats the subheader, than you had the second paragraph giving you some random 'background infos' and then you got the gist of the story in the 3 or 4th paragraph.

devilbunny

3 hours ago

Clickbait headlines have a long history. Go look up old newspapermen’s reminiscences about them. The most famous are classics like “HEADLESS BODY IN TOPLESS BAR” (1983) from the NY Post or “STICKS NIX HICK PIX” (1935) from Variety.

bob1029

6 hours ago

There is some evidence that little engineering effort has been put into mitigating this problem. I think if someone actually tried really hard we could make these birds a lot quieter.

> We compared the detected power flux densities of this UEMR to that emitted by the first generation v1.0 and v1.5 Starlink satellites. When correcting for the observed satellite distances, we find that the second-generation satellites emit UEMR that is up to a factor of 32 stronger compared to the first generation.

https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/abs/2024/09/aa51856-24/aa5...

femto

5 hours ago

There's probably a reason for that.

> Current ITU regulations ignore unintended satellite hardware leakage, leaving astronomers without legal protection.

Oh, what a coincidence.

inemesitaffia

4 hours ago

Another reason is these emissions are from power supplies

ccamrobertson

10 hours ago

While I pine for a dark sky, it makes sense that these operations should move in the same way century old optical telescopes in cities are no longer used for cutting edge science.

The far side of the moon seems like an increasingly viable option.

beloch

5 hours ago

People need light to see in cities. This light serves a function.

Starlink satellites are emitting unintended and useless EMR that serves no function. It is not necessary for the function of these satellites.

This is a money issue. The question you should ask is whether it will cost more for SpaceX to fix their satellites than it will to build radio telescopes (which are not small devices) in space. Personally, I suspect launching radio telescopes into space will not be the cheaper solution.

throw0101a

an hour ago

> People need light to see in cities. This light serves a function.

Street lights with (full) cutoff will still provide light for people:

* https://www.blancocountynightsky.org/guidelines.php

* https://highways.dot.gov/safety/other/visibility/fhwa-lighti...

* https://www.zgsm-china.com/blog/light-distribution-of-outdoo...

In fact it will improve the situations as all the light will be directed down, and so you'll need fewer lumens/lux/candela since half won't be waste going up (saving electricity), less glare on the roads after rain, and folks won't have street light blasting through their windows.

Dlemlo

6 hours ago

So because 10 Million people want to have internet, 8 Billion people no longer get acccess to that resource?

That sounds like a nice attitude from you.

JuniperMesos

5 hours ago

There's a lot fewer than 8 billion people who have access to the resource of "radio astronomy". I suspect it is in fact less than the 10 million figure of people who might want to use satellite-provided internet.

ungreased0675

an hour ago

Exponentially more people benefit from Starlink than from radio astronomy. It doesn’t need to be a one or the other conversation though.

ButlerianJihad

5 hours ago

Instruments on the far side of the Moon will need some communication with Earth. While you can fantasize about running very long surface cables, the common solution consists of orbiting communications satellites.

There are currently at least 8 satellites orbiting the Moon. We can expect that number to increase. Also to add to the excitement, when a satellite deorbits there, it will never slow down, burn, fall into water, or disintegrate. Just one big hunk of equipment impacting at full speed. Enjoy your craters.

dylan604

9 hours ago

You do realize that the far side of the moon is in direct sunlight for 2 weeks, right?

stackghost

9 hours ago

It’s also in darkness for 2 weeks. Terrestrial radio telescopes experience sunlight too. That would seem to be a solved problem.

dylan604

9 hours ago

and the moon is over 200°F in that sunlight.

ffsm8

7 hours ago

There is no atmosphere to speak of, so only if directly exposed. Hence that's a solvable issue.

The whole thing is incredibly expensive though, while it may be doable with current technology, the amount of money they'd have to set aside may be a hard sell for the miniscule potential of this research - at least from the lens of 2026... So the original position of the article makes sense, it may become functionally impossible, even if technically possible

stackghost

5 hours ago

So, less than the boiling temp of water. That is not outside the realm of solvable problems

cozzyd

9 hours ago

Just wait until wireless networks on the moon ruin that too.

isodev

8 hours ago

Or Space Karen can fix his space junk...

Maybe even start paying for the toxic waste he is landing when his junk continuously fails to stay up and re-enters the atmosphere.

robryan

10 hours ago

> Algorithmic mitigation is being explored, but scientists describe it as “embryonic” — potentially demanding computing power that rivals the science processing itself.

It sounds like this would work? Just be more costly, at least in the short term.

> Engineering fixes are the real answer

What is the fix and tradeoff? The article doesn't seem to cover it at all.

ahepp

10 hours ago

> The accidental static bleeding from onboard hardware, coupling through satellite structures and radiating across frequencies nobody authorized.

> The numbers tell the story bluntly:

I wouldn't waste too much compute trying to parse it, lots of LLM tells in the article. Pangram puts it at 100% AI.

RockRobotRock

11 hours ago

maybe Internet for people on earth matters more than astronomy

throw0101a

an hour ago

> maybe Internet for people on earth matters more than astronomy

Maybe Starlink can design proper filters and shielding so both Internet and astronomy can happen at the same time.

defrost

11 hours ago

We had that before Starlink flooded the radio quiet zones with leakage.

bcraven

10 hours ago

Were that the case, there would have been nobody buying Starlink.

As they are, I think you are wrong.

lokar

8 hours ago

My neighborhood has both cable and fiber, both >= 1Gbps, fairly cheap

My neighbor has starlink. I assume because they are MAGA.

RockRobotRock

4 hours ago

okay for real, i think you have elon derangement syndrome.

testing22321

7 hours ago

You mean privileged people in developed countries had it. Billions of people did not.

I’ve seen the first hand impact of starlink in communities that before had dialup as the fastest option from Australia to Tunisia to remote arctic Canada.

Medical stuff, school, talking to loved ones.

chaostheory

10 hours ago

Not everyone lives within a metro that has good infrastructure. This is even more true in developing countries.

dghlsakjg

10 hours ago

More tech people need to go places.

I was living in the eastern Caribbean ten years ago (a place that is not particularly poor), and the number of web services that could not handle a slow or unreliable connection was kind of shocking. Netflix was actually pretty impressive, they were fine to about 500kb/s with a lot of dropped packets. Below that, they were slow, but by no means unreliable. Most other sites would shit the bed on a similar connection.

Starlink has been an absolute godsend for my friends that are still down there.

cozzyd

10 hours ago

These are either incidental or unauthorized transmissions. Not the Ku band downlink to terminals.

inemesitaffia

4 hours ago

They are leakage from switching mode power supplies.

Dlemlo

6 hours ago

Maybe but people already had plenty of internet before Starlink.

Everyone i know who is using starlink doesn't use starlink because htey need starlink for internet.

RockRobotRock

4 hours ago

Is that because everyone you know lives in a high-wealth country/area?

lukeify

4 hours ago

As if most people use the Internet for proper utility and not just creating and consuming outrage-bait and slop. Suddenly the cost-benefit of "internet for people on earth" seems a lot less genuine.

You need surprisingly little bandwidth to send and receive messages, make calls, and read the news.

RockRobotRock

4 hours ago

Google "Ukraine war Starlink". Neolibs who hate Musk's companies unconditionally are going to go quiet real fucking fast, I bet.

sh-run

10 hours ago

I have such a love hate relationship with the tech. On one hand, I live on the edge of the mountains and can get away while on-call, set up my starlink and still be within SLAs if I got paged while out of service (weekend pages are fairly rare). On the other hand, I'm an amateur astronomer, for visual astro, it's not a huge deal, but I see how it could be for astrophotography (streaks) and obviously it's a problem for radio.

Zarathustra30

6 hours ago

The two aren't mutually exclusive, as long as aluminum foil is within a trillionaire's budget.

Hizonner

11 hours ago

That might be dispositive if we didn't already have almost everybody on Earth wired up without using satellites.

asdfasgasdgasdg

11 hours ago

The fact that so many people are paying for starlink suggests that it is adding something important that was missing before.

fluidcruft

11 hours ago

Streaming video on airplane flights?

db48x

10 hours ago

Most of Starlink’s customers are simply rural people who want Internet access at decent speeds. There are wide swathes of the US where Starlink’s best competition is measured in kilobytes per second.

defrost

10 hours ago

Seems like a case for the US having better fibre deployment than it does for leaking interference from unshielded poorly made tin cans.

wbl

8 hours ago

Fibre rolls in a dense city have different economics from somewhere with just a few people per square mile.

defrost

8 hours ago

and yet Western Australia, 3x size of Texas with less than a million people in 1980 had a telephone network that covered the population.

The "sums are different for rural V urban" doesn't make leaky tin cans a better solution over fibre to population, particularly given the downsides.

db48x

8 hours ago

Pretty sure we achieved that level of coverage here in the US a decade or more earlier than that. A lot of those same rural customers still rely on the telephone system for Internet access. They might be able to get DSL now, but the speeds are going to be low; often just a few hundred kilobits per second.

defrost

8 hours ago

So pull modern fibre; as should be done.

hvb2

7 hours ago

And who pays for those miles of fiber? That one customer, because he chose to live there?

I assume you understand that it that's the case, Starlink is a much better option as it won't cost them 5 figures upfront

gordonhart

9 hours ago

~80% of Starlink customers are not in the US.

defrost

8 hours ago

That'd be a point to make to the GP db48x

db48x

8 hours ago

No, I mean globally most of their customers are rural. Starlink is limited primarily by customer density rather than by absolute numbers. They can provide service to just so many people per square mile before the speed drops below the customer’s tolerance. Most of the square miles in the world are rural, therefore most of the customers are as well.

Plus cities have Starlink’s best competition. Starlink is amazing but FTTH is even better. If you can get FTTH at all then you probably won’t even consider Starlink. Nor should you.

inemesitaffia

3 hours ago

Suburban+Urban is more than rural.

Rural more than Urban

sippingabonedry

10 hours ago

Got a source for that?

Because there's entire continents of people who think it's the most ridiculous statement they've ever read on this site (which they can only access because of Starlink).

electric_mayhem

11 hours ago

That’s a mighty nice field of study you have there. It would be a shame if something happened to it

gigatexal

7 hours ago

Another example of billionaire wait trillionaire power capture. It’s really tough for democracy when one man has all that power. Hah Elon is lex luthor.

spdustin

11 hours ago

I just have to say: I _hate_ with a white-hot fury the growing usage of html-load and error-report dot com bullshit on these sites. I block those domains for gratuitous ad-serving, and sites just cycle a modal error now.

(I know, I could disable JavaScript everywhere and enable it on a site-by-site basis. Maybe that time has come.)

bix6

11 hours ago

I’ve got JavaScript disabled and no websites work.

dmix

11 hours ago

And nothing was lost

Brian_K_White

6 hours ago

No problem, Starlink will sell us sattelite telescopes to solve that. /s