derektank
7 hours ago
This headline seems misleading at best. There was, as far as I can tell reading both this piece and the original reporting in the WSJ[0], no community vote for or against data center construction. What appears to have happened is that Amazon simply followed the existing permitting rules for other industrial construction, “Amazon’s project was approved with a single signature—by the town’s community-development director—because it met zoning criteria set 45 years ago for industrial development along a freeway.”[0] The existing zoning laws did not require a public vote to receive a permit, so I don’t understand in what way a public vote was “circumvented”. It’s certainly fair for residents to ask for more input in general on permitting or zoning, and even to place explicit restriction on data centers going forward, but it seems like what people want is an ex post facto law, which is nigh universally bad law.
[0] https://www.wsj.com/us-news/how-amazon-built-a-data-center-i...
xtiansimon
7 hours ago
I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and waiting to read an example. This might just be the first I’ve read.
> “…by adhering to local zoning rules set 45 years ago”
I live on Long Island NY. Here on LI and Upstate there are a surprising number of former industrial land and abandoned buildings. It’s the whole package—loss of jobs, years of post-industrial decline, lost revenue and old rules on the books. Ripe for a new industry which, like remote workers, doesn’t need to be located next to the larger communities where their work product is consumed. Gentrification or redevelopment of agricultural land into boiling data centers are the outcomes.
> “It didn’t bother them that a food-distribution center came to Gilroy …” Bozzo said.
It’s a dirty fight. All sides.
Amazon wants to build on cheap land, and not on parcels the cities want cleaned up.
I’m wondering why these data centers are such a nuisance. We’ve had data centers for years. Is it just the fast growth and number? And is there good public data on their sustainability regarding water and electricity and environmental impact? If cities have failed, it’s turning a blind eye from collecting this data.
tzs
4 hours ago
> I’m wondering why these data centers are such a nuisance. We’ve had data centers for years. Is it just the fast growth and number?
That's likely a big part of it.
AI data centers need an order of magnitude or more power than a cloud data center, and a lot more are being built.
Before with the lower power requirements and with slow and steady growth a data center project was handled by the utilities just like they handled a new factory or a new large shopping mall. The utility might need to add substation of some local transmission lines but it wasn't a big deal.
An AI data center uses so much more power that even if the utility has enough capacity overall to cover it, the AI data center needs that all at one site meaning quit a bit more new infrastructure needs to be built.
Now add in the number being built. The utility now is much less likely to have generation capacity to cover them, meaning the utility will have to buy electricity on the open market which is more expensive.
Another factor is that many AI data centers cannot wait for that and so find sources of energy other than the grid to tide them over for the several years it might take before the grid is ready for them. These sources are often not good for their neighbors.
unethical_ban
6 hours ago
Why people oppose datacenters:
Philosophical opposition to AI's impact on society.
Resource utilization: power and water.
Pollution: natural gas turbines on site and broadly the pollution of power generation, and noise pollution.
Subsidies to multitrillion dollar companies at the expense of taxpayers.
Impact on local community: traffic, construction, impact to surrounding home prices.
Lies about the benefits of datacenters: talk of how much money it might bring governments, while no dividends are paid to citizens impacted by the negative effects above.
---
If a datacenter was quiet, powered by renewables, water-efficient in a place without water supply insecurity, and funded by the builders instead of taxpayers, most complaints would be solved.
These operators are in such a rush to build that they are ignoring all decency and resident concern in many cases.
dlubarov
5 hours ago
> Philosophical opposition to AI's impact on society.
I think this is the real reason, while the others don't make that much sense when we really think about it.
Large datacenters are normally limited to industrial zoned land, so they're "competing" for space with other industrial projects, and their externalities are typically mild compared to other industrial projects.
Most datacenters create little traffic, minimal pollution, and no bad odors. They do use substantial power and water, but they pay for it (though in certain cases the economics aren't perfect).
I'd much rather live near a datacenter than a dump, sewage facility, refinery, etc. etc.
gruez
5 hours ago
>Subsidies to multitrillion dollar companies at the expense of taxpayers.
How does this square with the fact that one county in Virginia derives half of its budget from datacenters?
xtiansimon
5 hours ago
Half of a dollar is fifty-cents. A lot of work is necessary to put that figure into the framing of the benefits of data centers for communities.
gruez
5 hours ago
"subsidies" implies the number is negative. Now it sounds like you're moving the goalposts from "datacenters are getting subsidized" to something vague like "they're not paying enough".
ajross
7 hours ago
Two things can be true: the construction can be technically legal and at clear odds with community opinion.
I mean, yes. Amazon can likely do this. But is this strategy really in keeping with its long term interests? I mean, look at the comments in the rest of this very topic. Do you want a communist insurrection? This is literally how you get communist insurrections. People are fucking pissed, and the bourge^M^M^M^M funding-focused growth-minded startup set here are throwing gasoline on the fire.
Miner49er
7 hours ago
6 years ago when the work to build the data center started, nobody cared about data centers.
Should 6 years of planning be thrown away because data centers have recently become fashionable to hate?
Matl
7 hours ago
So noise and pollution that makes it impossible to live in or sell your house is now simply 'fashionable' to hate?
halJordan
an hour ago
I guess i don't understand why reneging on a binding agreement is the cool thing here. They went through all the requirements. If the requirements should now change that's fine. But hold yourself to the agreement you made. Or appropriately terminate it
ACCount37
6 hours ago
Yep.
The "noise and pollution" of a datacenter are bordering on nonexistent. The same goes for water use concerns and more. The environmental concerns are extremely overblown - but NIMBYs really don't need much to get going.
throwaway173738
6 hours ago
So which data center do you call neighbor?
ajross
7 hours ago
This is going to sound like I'm flipping sides in this thread: but yeah, absolutely. Otherwise people in Gilroy would have hated datacenters when the planning started and Amazon would have built in Fresno or wherever.
Really both sides are insane in this battle. People are angry about social change, injustice, perceived loss of status and are taking out those frustrations on totems like "Buildings Owned by Big Tech". Which is wrong. But it's equally wrong to ignore those concerns and try to align with their political enemies, which only makes this worse. (We saw exactly this thing happen with the vaccine madness just half a decade ago!)
To wit: we're all going to hell in a handbasket and this community is 100% as much at fault as the big data opposition front.
ofjcihen
7 hours ago
6 years of planning can be thrown away if the community is just now becoming aware of the potential impact.
It’s not on the community to adhere to the companies looking to make a profit while ignoring how their presence affects those around them. Quite the opposite really.
voakbasda
7 hours ago
[dead]
arcbyte
7 hours ago
[flagged]
Avicebron
7 hours ago
"Nobody intelligent opposes dovecote construction"*
*French nobility circa 1789
nucleogenesis
6 hours ago
Your premise is a straw man so maybe keep your opinion on the intelligence of others to yourself.
Plenty of journalists are eating well reporting on the negative externalities actively felt by residents who live near data centers. It is not hard to find if you look.
InsideOutSanta
7 hours ago
5G towers have no negative externalities except looking kinda dorky. In fact, they're nice; they improve your reception. The same cannot be said for data centers.
(Instead of just downvoting this, I'd appreciate it if you could point out exactly what I said is wrong. Thanks.)
giaour
6 hours ago
5G towers are typically much smaller and less conspicuous than the towers they are replacing. One of 5G's hallmarks is its "small cell" architecture.
peyton
7 hours ago
I think we should refrain extending “negative externality” to mean “things people don’t like that might affect them.” Non-pecuniary externalities, in the Pigouvian sense, are really something you analyze to achieve efficiency. In this case, following a 5-year permitting process and plopping the industrial activity on industrial land is basically a form of bargaining and is probably acceptable from a social efficiency standpoint. Amazon’s hardly mining cobalt next to a daycare here.
InsideOutSanta
7 hours ago
> I think we should refrain extending “negative externality” to mean “things people don’t like that might affect them.”
But that's pretty much the definition of the term. It's a negative impact on a third party. If I'm living next to a data center, and it's noisy, or my electricity costs more, those are negative externalities.
There are real reasons not to want data centers next door, unlike 5G towers.
Apocryphon
6 hours ago
In the South Valley, the pre-data center nemesis were distribution hubs, lambasted for the traffic they caused. Ironically also a key component of Amazon’s physical infrastructure.
mindslight
6 hours ago
I'd say you're trying to define some ambiguous criteria to keep harms illegible to the analysis and thus deny that they exist. Noise pollution is very much pollution, certainly causes real problems, and falls right into the externality paradigm wherein a party unilaterally causes harm while making others suffer it.
That the effects of noise pollution are hard to formally describe (and extra hard to quantify in monetary terms) does not mean we can just throw up our hands and pretend they don't exist. In fact, I'd say this is exactly why we stake out lofty non-economic ideals like human rights etc - markets have friction (ie are not efficient), and this combined with your reasoning means we could justify anything that produces negative outcomes for humans by simply writing it off as non-economically-legible. But the entire human-value justification for letting markets do their thing rests on the positive benefits they bring to us humans, so that is absurd. And so we always need to look at the larger picture and judge the real-world effects on humans.