If only a few techies will be able to use Linux phone, banks will freely lock payment services access down to two platforms: ios and android. No way out, it's happening right now (in the name of "security", of course, but surprisingly it does not stop scam from happening).

Web will be locked down too, via secureboot stack browser integration (not -s, it's already actually monopolised to chrome only, as FF lives on full life support from Google).

Very sad how it was allowed to happen so easily.

I really want to love mobile Linux, and have given it multiple shots before. But I just don't see how it will catch up with iOS/Android in the same way it caught up with Windows/Mac:

- OEMs have poured an enormous amount of resources into the camera software, Linux cameras are years behind from what I understand. - Android/iOS have thoroughly optimized the UX in all sorts of subtle ways, the big one being their keyboards. I literally can't type a single correct sentence on any of the mobile linux keyboards that I've tried because there's so much proprietary magic needed under the hood to figure out what the user is trying to say (autocorrect mostly, but I recall something about how apple also virtually adjusted the sizes of the keys to make it easier to type) - GPS, banking, and now keys for your house and car all need to work.

Android basically ran a long bait and switch game. It came out as open source, achieved wide adoption, important online services like banking and government-related moved to it.

Now they are locking it all down.

This read like a lot of pain and suffering. I've tried this for kicks myself. There's a lot of sacrifices to be made. But I'm rooting for anything Linux on smartphones.

I've tried a few times over the years to make Ubuntu Touch work. God how bad I wanted it to work here in the US. The lack of apps and VoLTE support really soured me on it ever working here.

If you're outside of the US, the availability of useable mobile OS's outside of Android and iOS is pretty abundant compared to the situation here in the US.

Google Play Services ruins dream of this. I've noticed that automotive digital keys don't work with Graphine OS due to how Google Wallet works.

Is there such thing as a palm-sized mobile PC that can just run a desktop Linux distribution (or Windows for that matter) that supports mobile features (calling, SMS, and data)? Even if it has rough edges or compromises?

I would love to do this. It's shocking how little Android offers for the hardware it uses. Recently I was thinking if I could install Windows 98 on my phone, even that would be better. At least I could have more than one app open without it burning all my work just because I dared to check info on a web page while filling a form.

Not to mention that your android/ios device is still shipping a bunch of bluetooth tokens for "track and trace" system. Cryptographically signed to you.

https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing

I have thought about buying one of the Pinephone things, because I want to actually own the computer in my pocket, but I have always hesitated because the hardware is always kind of ancient for these things. The Pinephone doesn’t even have 5G, so I am not even sure that my phone service will let me activate it now.

What I would like is to take my existing iPhone 13 Pro and install a real Linux on it so I could guarantee decent hardware. You know, like we could do with pretty much any computer before smartphones.

  > While the AOSP isn't exactly dead (yet), it kind of feels like it's just a question of time.

> If I have an issue or something I want to tinker with I can just ssh over from my PC either wirelessly or via USB.

FWIW one can also do that on stock Android or its GrapheneOS variant pretty conveniently, including storage access, am, boot background processes, etc. It is not as complete as being root on Linux proper but still.

Windows Phone was a great idea and worked so well. But it was killed by the fact that people didn't want to maintain apps for 3 platforms. Nowadays when most of the things runs on web/electron anyway, isn't this the time to rediscover that idea?

Make something novel? RTOS like response like blackberry, secure, fully opensource and such? With the era of LLM accelerated developement (don't crucify me), this wouldn't be such unreachable goal.

We would have to sacrifice bank apps but imho still worth it.

Smartphones(android, iphone) is just smart OTP now. Bootloader unlock unavailable(i hope this is just security concern for AI era), attestation is now a thing(regulations?). Most application(incl ChatGPT, X) says Android-available, but in fact it's Google-Android only.

As daily driving Linux desktop/laptops, I mostly find that android(at least samsung galaxy-flavored) is next gen of Microsoft Windows, in bad ways. At least you can "hack" the Windows to customize something by your own, android does not. Performance also questionable nowadays, not for gaming but browsing purpose for me, may drain more battery than expected. Also MS acknowledges the issues and made statements to fix while I haven't seen samsung's.

Anyway, My opinion is, If you are nerd like me, I would buy one phone that 1) can unlock the bootloader 2) can root 3) at least kernel source available, some companies do not disclose until legal? actions 4) optional, linux port-able (via community) 5) optional, officially supporting linux(not aosp)

and then buy second phone, that has great security support, e.g Apple iPhone or Google Pixel, and use it like a wallet(banking/cam/gps/... I would not like to support other vendors, what if they abandon security patches, and then phone being vulnerable). I believe more android application will be more restrictive than before in the future.

For linux, you own the hardware. Because it's open source, you can audit and harden the every aspects, e.g You might able to use proprietary bluetooth codecs, which vendor disables in android ROM. When AI era, you may able to investigate and mod stuffs which you don't fully understand. This take risks, and we have right to take the risks instead banning it.

Switching from Android style Linux HAL to FreeDesktop style Linux HAL… I honestly think we need more Linux HAL options than just those two, when one is threatening to self-destruct and the other is arguably the single worst interface design ever conceived, by all measurements.

I still dream about that dockable Ubuntu phone.

Doesn't Android already use the Linux kernel?

I'd love to do this, but sadly I don't see it happening unless my lifestyle significantly changed to the point where I wasn't frequently traveling to new countries.

There are just too many very useful services that only work with Android/iOS. Take taxi apps for example. I've used over a dozen in the past few years, many of them local to a specific country or region that made getting around much much easier.

I really want to leave the Google and Apple Ecosystems, but I still need "these" Banking Apps. Some Banks don't even offer a Web based experience anymore.

May as well just get an old school Nokia and skip the smartphone technology all together. Get yourself a nice flip phone and go back to the early 2000's. If you need to do something online, just bring your laptop with you - some are so small that they're easy to carry around in a backpack or side bag.

I have Furiphone and F(x)tec devices. They ought to work well as mobile Linux devices, but they very much do not. They are unbearably slow, which I attribute to poor storage I/O optimization and Phosh being an obese sloth.

I haven't used it myself but every now and then, I'm tempted to try a Furiphone. Just from what I've read, it looks like the easiest out-of-the-box Linux experience on a phone. Does anyone here have direct experience with it?

It would be fun to plop Claude Code down on a phone and play with the baseband processor.

If they ever figure out how to get Linux onto a phone with a good camera, I'd pounce on it. I would be willing to put up with app issues and weird bugs and all the jankiness that comes with early adoption, but I simply can't give up being able to take really good photos with my phone.

This is the future I want. I will keep fighting for it. But my braveheart pinephone is showing it's age. And I need it to be dependable for pagerduty etc, or else have some other alerts proxy capable of waking me up in the dead of night.

Note that “I’m switching” here means “I’m now carrying two phones because I have to use Android.”

FTA:

> The no waydroid means that I can't access some apps that I need be it for online verification for logging onto bank and government services in Norway

Speaking of Linux on mobile, I have about 300 of these things for sale with some associated hardware and software if anyone is interested (in Australia but can ship obviously) https://www.openstick.de/

Now that making apps is easy, and it's the apps and eco system etc that makes an OS take off and adopt, starting a new OS for phone like devices shouldn't be as big of a problem as it used to be.

Given fair phone exists, it should now be able to get all kind of apps anyone wants.

One of the issues is the network effect self reinforcing by the organistions you'd normally trust to be above this sort of thing. Like government bodies requiring that you use one of two american phone OS. No webpage and no other options for you...

Example, across the whole of my 2.8 million people city, parking is app-to-pay. No meter, no ticket box - just a sign announcing to pay by app and a QR code.

QR code points at a webpage announcing which very limited selection of apps you have for iOS and android and the backup option to ring a number.

Ringing that number means you talk to a person, make an account for only one of the apps over the phone, then use the phone menu system each time you need to park.

If you have a dumb phone(can't scan a QR code) or no phone... you're fucked. No way to pay for parking. Expect your fine and go through the bullshit processes.

The world should NOT think it is great to be so dependant on two US companies, but here we are.

Seems you need to buy a phone from them to use it? Couldn't find list of hardware supported, how to install etc.

What's a good phone for use without Google's Play Store? F-Droid only. No Google account.

Shoutout to Purism... if you got the loot.

https://puri.sm/products/liberty-phone/

Been daily driving ubports for about 4 years now (OP5T, Noble). The system has its quirks, it sometimes reboots without reason (though its rare, I experience something like that once a month), the videos in web browser sometimes glitch in a weird way and sometimes don't play at all, the camera stops working and needs a reboot. The lack of banking apps and maps with live traffic is irritating (although unav is great, shoutouts to the guy who made it), a problem that could be solved using waydroid but I don't want to use it out of principle. Otherwise it covers all my needs, has working phone, SMS and MMS (I'm from Europe), web browser, matrix and mail clients, TOTP manager (necessary for work), and is totally linux which allows me to do cool things like using pulseaudio sinks to connect my laptop to phone that is connected to speakers and use it as wireless aux (works janky, but it works :) ). It obviously hasn't got many apps compared to the competition, but new ones are continuously being developed by the community. I tried developing an app myself but haven't got the time, fortunately it's much easier now with AI because I remember that one attempt at creating a simple app for enabling some daemon a few years ago was cut short by not-quite clear documentation of the clickable app development system. It needs to be said that I'm certainly not the greatest programmer in the world though :)

If you're a technical guy and you feel like the android and ios are both pretty much destroyed by corporate overlords, then I sincerely invite you to try UBports or SailfishOS (from my research I find these two the most beginner friendly). The experience most certainly will hurt (at the beginning), but the sooner more people start using it, the sooner more people will start contributing to linux on phone and make our systems better. I was nervous that I would not survive without android and its entire app catalog and maps, or that a moment would come at work or in some critical situation that I would need android for some dumb reason and wouldn't be able to do something and spaghetti would fall out of my pockets, but for the last 4 years nothing like that happened. The most painful thing for me are probably the maps, but when I need long distance GPS with live traffic, I'll most certainly be driving with someone, so I just ask the passenger to navigate :) for less important voyages the unav is completely fine, there's also puremaps which I haven't tested.

1. Android already runs on the linux kernel.

2. For every phone people in this thread switch from Android to "Linux", I'm going to switch 3 from "Linux" to Android. I have a budget of $14, $11 is earmarked for Chipotle. I should have plenty left.

Mobian is where my hope is...

"I'm switching my phone from <free software> to <proprietary software>"

Why not just use an Android AOSP distribution? SailfishOS is proprietary. It will be a lot more "locked down" than LineageOS/GrapheneOS.

Blackberry 10

Has anyone done Android as a I'm on a Linus phone?

>I've become more and more dissatisfied with the path Google has taken with the Android Open Source Project (AOSP). Be it the dependency and insane tracking of Google Play Services

AOSP does not include nor depend on Play Services.

>locking down of device trees to hinder custom ROM development

Most manufacturers do not distribute these either. The user doesn't even have a pixel so it is not relevant.

>all the AI stuff being put into the system

The AI stuff is not part of AOSP.

>or most recently (and perhaps worst), removing the ability of installing apps per your own wishing - it's become sort of like a "death by a thousand papercuts" situation.

Again that is not a feature of AOSP, but one bolted in on top of it.

I think the author would benefit much more by using a different distribution of AOSP.

spinof topic: android is still that java thingy? Or is it finally a set of modular binary specifications which are computer language agnostic?

I wish we'd see some progress on this from the phone makers. It's so disappointing what a stranglehold Android somehow has. Nokia was so on the eve of greatness before they threw it all away and burned their good platform.

FairPhone 4 is a pretty ancient cpu. I guess it's benching a bit above the OnePlus 6/6t that has been a go-to for a good fraction of a decade now. https://browser.geekbench.com/v7/cpu/84602 https://browser.geekbench.com/v7/cpu/5200

Motorola at least seems to be moving to unlock bootloaders. ARM gpus have some ok drivers now (thanks collabora & many others), which, a decade ago seemed like way way way more than the universe was ever going to allow.

I still think Samsung, with their new mountains of market cap, should try to do better. Exynos is right there, with an RDNA GPU just begging for the world's best drivers to take advantage of the hardware you already ship. You could make a stunner! Why not try?

This perfectly captures the "death by a thousand papercuts" reality of modern Android. Google honors the open-source letter of the law with AOSP while systematically destroying its spirit by moving vital APIs into closed-source Google Mobile Services (GMS).We are seeing the exact same playbook play out on our wrists right now with Wear OS. Google recently mandated the Watch Face Format (WFF) via Watch Face Studio (WFS). Under the guise of battery optimization, they stripped developers of the ability to run executable native code for watch faces. It is now just a declarative XML format rendered by the OS.Whether it is the core OS framework or a simple smartwatch complication, Google’s strategy remains identical: hollow out the open ecosystem, deprecate local developer execution, and force everyone into their centralized, closed garden.

Did you consider postmarketOS? https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Fairphone_4_(fairphone-fp...