Almondsetat
10 hours ago
It's a coordinated hybrid warfare attack. Terrible title. Or are the "migrants" Belarus has been shipping to Poland also a "surge"?
rq1
10 hours ago
It was indeed an attack.
The trains and other public transports to bring these people there were free that day for that specific destination.
bertylicious
9 hours ago
You don't happen to have a reliable source for this ludicrous claim?
lukan
9 hours ago
Source?
Almondsetat
9 hours ago
Forgive the linked page, but I couldn't quickly find other profiles that posted this, since I don't use twitter
lukan
9 hours ago
I don't think a ragebait twitter profile counts as a reliable source.
Almondsetat
9 hours ago
The source is the video, not the profile. Are you claiming it's fake?
defrost
9 hours ago
The upthread HN claim was that this "was an attack".
The Xitter claim was that:
Moroccan traffic police keeps directing thousands of illegal migrants toward the Spanish border fence in Ceuta.
This is a state-orchestrated invasion of Spain.
The video shows a small number of people on a small number of truck beds calmly going about a roundabout.No visible attack, no proof that the people visible are "thousands of illegal migrants" nor of where they are or where they are headed.
lukan
9 hours ago
Are you claiming this video shows free trains for immigrants?
It shows people on cars and police waiving them on like all the other traffic. So possible they especially were set up for the immigrants, but no idea how one can conclude that from this short clip.
hamper653
9 hours ago
You are very picky.
itopaloglu83
9 hours ago
I think this is a misunderstanding of having free public transportation during certain national holidays, and the perpetrators using such perks.
shevy-java
9 hours ago
50.000 people all trying to infiltrate a country, can not be a random actionn. That was coordinated.
lukan
9 hours ago
Probably, but does not mean a state organized it. So if there was free transportation just for this day just for that route -> strong indicator of Morocco involved.
So, I a remain curious to the base of the claim, but so far it rather seems rumors.
itopaloglu83
9 hours ago
I was commenting about the free transportation question.
Regarding how such a flood happen, I don’t know, but someone should investigate it for sure.
hamper653
10 hours ago
Why the quotemarks around "migrants"? You think these people aren’t actually migrating from one country to another?
rich_sasha
8 hours ago
I don't know about Ceuta, but it is true Belarus has been "importing" people and forcing them to storm the Polish border, in huge numbers.
It is also true that many times the Polish state has behaved inhumanely towards these people. But for sure their presence on the forester Polish-Belarussian border was an engineered hybrid warfare act, not some act of collective desperation, and it continues to this day.
The poor people taking part are, I understand, often recruited in poor places and told they will be smuggled into Europe. Then they arrive in Belarus and get sandwiched between Belarusian police (KGB?) and the border, told the only way out of, effectively, Belarusian captivity, is into Poland, through the barbed wire and border patrol/army.
debugnik
9 hours ago
48000 out of 50000 in Ceuta's breach won't be migrating actually, since they've already returned voluntarily. Most either were agitators or have realised they weren't any better off on the other side.
hamper653
9 hours ago
Most have already migrated actually, unless you believe they were born in Morocco. And their intention was obviously to settle in Europe through Spain.
fcatalan
8 hours ago
Stop sealioning, this is simply Morocco once again using its desperate young population as pawns in their underhanded "diplomacy".
Those people had no way to stay in Ceuta or travel onwards in any way, so this was just a deadly flashmob performance.
Of course the whole thing does double duty in arousing fascists and racists in Spain and the EU, for which the cui prodest list is quite ample.
hamper653
8 hours ago
Oh so you actually believe these people were Moroccans?
dumberquestions
6 hours ago
They're quite obviously Moroccan.
hamper653
6 hours ago
Obviously? Morocco is a well-known hub for migrants from all over Africa who try to reach Europe, but these ones are "quite obviously" Moroccan? What makes it this obvious then?
dtagames
9 hours ago
Geographically, they're not. Ceuta occupies a tiny corner of Africa. None of these people reached peninsular Spain and they are not migrants fleeing into Europe to live there.
lukan
9 hours ago
They migrated to a different, country, that is part of the EU. Once they are legal there, they can move to anywhere in europe without problems.
hamper653
9 hours ago
Most of these people aren’t from Morocco, so they already were migrants before even making into Ceuta, which is Spain, hence yet another country.
Almondsetat
9 hours ago
Until it's proven they want to actually move there, they cannot be called migrants. In fact, 90% of them have gone back to Morocco, so not much permanence to speak of
hamper653
8 hours ago
Unless they were born in Morocco, they are migrants. And why else would they move into Ceuta like this?
defrost
8 hours ago
A soccer match would be a good first guess for a large surging crowd.
hamper653
8 hours ago
> soccer
What is that?
defrost
8 hours ago
One of the common names for Association football.
As you very well know.
hamper653
8 hours ago
If it’s so common, how come civilised people don’t use it?
readthenotes1
7 hours ago
That word doesn't mean what you think it means
hamper653
7 hours ago
Which word?
grumple
10 hours ago
If you watch the videos or interviews with the “migrants”, these are clearly just agitators and looters trying to have a good time by harassing the Spanish. None of them expect to suddenly become Spanish citizens. It’s like flash mobs or organized looting we see in the US organized by social media.
hamper653
9 hours ago
Are they, or are they not, foreign-born people crossing a border to settle on the other side?
debugnik
9 hours ago
See my other reply to you, most are in fact not settling.
bertylicious
9 hours ago
By your definition a migrant needs to cross borders and successfully settle on the other site. What do you call the people being forced back or stuck in holding facilities and internation camps then?
debugnik
9 hours ago
I'm talking exclusively about this particular breach. 48000 out of 50000 have returned voluntarily. I don't think that counts as trying, so talking about success is a category error. This was a (deadly) flash mob.
hamper653
9 hours ago
> I'm talking exclusively about this particular breach.
Actually OP was talking about migrants crossing from Belarus.
hamper653
9 hours ago
They are not staying at least one year in Europe?
debugnik
9 hours ago
Most have already returned voluntarily!
hamper653
9 hours ago
Ok so they are aspiring migrants.
readthenotes1
7 hours ago
Mostly peaceful aspiring migrants, just trying to make a better life for their children
hamper653
7 hours ago
Well… yeah.
grumple
8 hours ago
They were there for the fun of looting and harassing the Spanish at the direction of their government, not to actually settle. I might call them agitators, raiders or invaders, not migrants.
hamper653
7 hours ago
You believe these people to be Moroccans? Really?
grumple
4 hours ago
What conspiracy theory is this that you’re pushing that these were not Moroccans? You think there’s some other large group of people who live in Morocco and were just ready to run into Ceuta within a day of this Spanish ruling?
hamper653
2 hours ago
> You think there’s some other large group of people who live in Morocco and were just ready to run into Ceuta?
Morocco, being close to Spain, is a well-known hub for migrants from all over Africa hoping to make it to Europe, yes.
Do you also believe that all the migrants attempting to cross the Channel from Calais are… French?
kubb
10 hours ago
People need convenient excuses to build their inaccurate, personal “reality” and headlines are a perfect medium for that.
totetsu
9 hours ago
It seems that dropping its own boarder enforcement, is a political lever that the Moroccan government sometimes uses in disputes with Spain. Is that what happened here? And these images of a flood of brown migrants, are useful to a lot of consent manufacturing projects, so are getting amplified?
itopaloglu83
10 hours ago
It’s a perpetual cycle feeding of each other.
colordrops
10 hours ago
Yes, a concerted campaign on TikTok and Instagram (hint hint) targeted these people with lies about the consequences of a supreme court ruling on immigration. This happened soon after Spain proposed an EU measure to break association with Israel.
_DeadFred_
2 hours ago
"ascktually, it's not anti-semetic to hint that something is a jewish conspiracy if you use the word Israel."
- HN posters
colordrops
24 minutes ago
I stated reported facts, please try a real response rather than snark.
It is literally antisemitic to suggest Zionism and Judaism are the same thing.
anovikov
9 hours ago
Well, this is certainly the case. Many migrants said that they were encouraged and directed by Moroccan police that informed people in advance, removed border controls and on the crossing site, encouraged people to cross.
It's an exaggeration to call this an attack - those people were not military, we not legally obliged, conscripted, or paid to do it - the are willing migrants, they actually want to immigrate and live in Spain. What changed is that they were given the opportunity, "they did it because they could".
In any case, they are all back now. It failed.
shevy-java
9 hours ago
Agreed. This smells like coordinated externally.
Whoever was the main one to have coordinated this should be punished. In case of Finland it was Russia to have coordinated this. In case of Spain, the most logical actor was Morocco. There should be sanctions that are rigidly enforced here. It should also be treated as a military attack against the EU by Morocco, aside from sanctions.