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1089 pointsposted 3 days ago

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902 Comments

freediver

3 days ago

7 years ago we started the 'you are not the product' movement for digital information consumption with Kagi Search. Since then the paradigm shifted from search to agents. Good to see the need for 'you are not the product' still holds up, maybe even more so now: an agent is only worth trusting if it works for you and nobody else. The second an advertiser gets between you and the answer, that's gone. So we're staying on the user-funded side of this. Boring, but it's the whole point.

bayindirh

I'm a customer of Kagi who is in no way affiliated with Kagi, other than sending them money. I agree with bayindirh: It’s possibly the single most impactful thing in my digital life.

I know that we live in a world where tech increasingly sucks, and positive comments on tech are (correctly!) seen as suspicious. The thing, though, is that Kagi is genuinely just a great product, and search is such a central part of using the Internet that good, trustworthy search makes a huge difference.

2 days ago

It's distrust - in foreigners, in each other - that got extremists elected, and it's distrust - in the media, in the institutions - that gives them unchecked power to destroy the country.

bilbo0s

2 days ago

None of which would have happened if we had not gotten so complacent about defending our democracy through vigorous enforcement of the Constitution, and voting in a fashion more informed by wisdom than emotion.

At the root of all you lament is not lack of trust, it is complacency. Decades long complacency.

Lack of trust is what our republic was founded on, and the entire reason it was structured the way it was. Our republic is specifically designed to function in a trust-free environment.

But no republic, nor any other organizational construct, no matter how well designed, will survive complacency.

john01dav

2 days ago

Kagi's business model also aligns incentives better than an ad and/or data mining fueled business model. Of course, this isn't proof, but it is evidence. One can also try the search in areas that one knows deeply and compare it to other search engines to see if it's truly better (I have not done this, but it is possible and isn't just trusting marketing.).

I don't use Kagi primarily because I'm quite averse to subscriptions if I can find another way.

Dumblydorr

2 days ago

Yeah that one was praising in a non-specific way. Whether or not it’s genuinely a user, it did feel like astroturfing, which is sad if it’s a real comment that they can’t compliment a good service.

bayindirh

2 days ago

If I wrote the features that I like, and god forbid I use a bullet list, then I'll be labeled as a LLM user or LLM again.

2 days ago

> That comment was obviously LLM authored...

Wanna bet? =]

bayindirh

3 days ago

It's a funny claim about me, who doesn't use any LLMs for writing, coding or reducing any kind of mental or manual load.

My comments are on the open, and I can answer any question or comment you have about any of them. :)

No offense taken though. Made me smile while drinking my tea. :)

dmacj

3 days ago

> Kagi is not only an ad-free subscription. It’s a mental budget booster.

Likely, the "It's not X, it's Y" phrasing is what probably rang the LLM alarm bells.

andruby

3 days ago

LLM's are trained on human phrasings. So now we can't use human phrasings anymore?

I am one of those people that used to write em dashes – and now I self-censor them out of my writings :(

qzx_pierri

3 days ago

I still use them too. Don’t listen to these nerds. Self censoring is awful.

bayindirh

3 days ago

Yeah, I figured the same thing after reading my comment and chuckled. :)

Dumblydorr

2 days ago

Wow! Can I ask how Kagi is best for your uses? Would love to try myself

bayindirh

2 days ago

Oh, this appeared late in my feed.

I personally like the ability to filter my own results by promoting, demoting or blocking certain domains to filter lower quality results further. Same for image search which can also filter out AI generated images.

Also, I find lenses very useful (which is a way to limit your search radius) to search for specific things in the specific parts of the internet. i.e. you can define a lens with specific websites for a subject, and if you need something precisely, you can only search these websites.

I recently started to use SlopStop reporting to weed out AI generated webpages from search results, too.

Lastly, all AI features are opt-in. No summaries, no widgets, no extra "bells and whistles" if you don't want on your result page.

plutokras

16 hours ago

> I personally like the ability to filter my own results by promoting, demoting or blocking certain domains to filter lower quality results further.

I had an annual Kagi subscription that I let lapse not long ago. That was hands-down the best feature, so I vibecoded a small userscript that replicates it for DuckDuckGo. DDG also lets you turn off ads.

I'd gladly return once they fix the integration issues. In Safari, the redirect via the extension is a bit wonky at times.

freediver

2 days ago

Thank you for words of support and love the background picture on your website.

rubyfan

2 days ago

2 days ago

Keep fighting the good fight. Also, offering a counterpoint for the sibling comments: Yandex results are the most valuable for the type of thing censored in all other search engines. If I want to search for news on the war on Ukraine I go anywhere, but the things yandex works for are censored everywhere else.

anonymous344

a day ago

a day ago

Sigh. This kind of whataboutism derails all discussions online.

* "Different platforms, different plots? The Kremlin-controlled search engine Yandex as a resource for Russia’s informational influence in Belarus during the COVID-19 pandemic", from the NIH - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10130930/

* "How the Kremlin Subjugated Yandex", from GWU's Russia Post - https://russiapost.info/articles/yandex_kremlin

There's lots and lots more out there too on the topic, just a Google search away.

ar-nazeh

13 hours ago

[dead]

jwr

3 days ago

[flagged]

RobotToaster

3 days ago

Highlighting hypocrisy isn't whataboutism.

inigyou

2 days ago

Highlighting hypocrisy like this is calling out the fallacy of Proving Too Much: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/G5eMM3Wp3hbCuKKPE/proving-to...

In short: if your argument supports the conclusion you want but also supports conclusions that are absurd, it's probably not correct.

ejohansson

3 days ago

Ouch. I was not aware. Cancelled.

It's rough that it's so hard to be an ethical consumer these days. Mullvad gone, Kagi gone.

inigyou

2 days ago

FWIW I don't think anything Kagi is doing is unethical. If I did - if I did feel it was unethical to spend money at a company that is in a country that does war crimes - I'd also have to feel that almost all spending was unethical, including things like buying lunch.

On a secondary point, if we want more ethical things to exist, we have to create them. If we want an ethical alternative to Mullvad it's on us to do it.

ejohansson

2 days ago

I think the situation you're in affects what you can reasonably do and hence what can be considered "ethical". You cannot opt out of paying taxes (and buying lunch), but it is possible here for me to avoid funding this war and try to seek better alternatives.

inigyou

2 days ago

Did you go out of your way to buy a non-Chinese-made phone? You technically have a choice there, but not much of one. About as much of a choice as you have in the search engine business.

wasabi991011

2 days ago

Chinese phone-makers and Yandex are behaving pretty differently. China and Russia are also behaving pretty differently.

There's no clear reason why someone couldn't have qualms about one but not the other.

ejohansson

2 days ago

Like I wrote, and what you seem to say again here, I agree that it is unfortunate how tough it is to be an ethical consumer these days.

allarm

16 hours ago

Were there the days when it was easy for you? Do share the memories, please.

inigyou

2 days ago

"there is no ethical consumption in capitalism"

jabron

3 days ago

Google? Microsoft? AWS?

barbs

3 days ago

Damn, what did Mullvad do?

mort96

3 days ago

Founder and CEO funded a Swedish far right party. They stood for roughly 72% of what that party took in.

https://korben.info/en/mullvad-cofounder-funding-far-right.h...

Mullvad has tried to paint it as, "this does not represent Mullvad the company, this is a private political donation" and stuff like that. I don't buy it. Funding Mullvad funds the CEOs.

allarm

16 hours ago

This comment is just unbelievable. With Kagi "canceled" you're back to use your regular search engine powered by the sociopaths destroying the world. But hey, at least your 5 bucks didn't go to Kremlin!

Hoefner

3 days ago

What’s wrong with Yandex? How is it any different from Bing, Google etc?

kreco

2 days ago

3 days ago

I want to continue to use the enterprise products paid for with billions of dollars of investment, because they still have tremendous value.

Similarly, I want to continue to use the platforms that have all the users, content, and network effects.

BUT - I'd like my own personal agent to sit between everything and strip out the nonsense before it hits my eyeballs.

Ad block used to be good enough, but we can clearly take this much further.

Ads are not the only toxic thing. The algorithm is. Attention seeking from any entity is. The whole internet is adversarial, not just one screen of one product.

An agent could sit between us and the web (or us and our apps) and strip out all the ads, strip out all the clickbait, filter out all the negativity, algo-spam, and low-value content. Calls to upgrade, cookie banners, MrBeast, whatever.

I want an agent that knows me and acts on my behalf as I browse the internet. It should see everything in my browser (or even everything on my screen) and whittles down the bullshit before it ever reaches me.

This kind of tool could focus the whole of the internet into perfect crystal clarity - into an internet whose only objective is to serve me. Certainly not an internet that can make me mad or that tries to convince me to buy things.

Something flexible like this goes beyond just search. It fixes everything on every corner of the internet.

If we treat this as a technology/browser/OS problem, then it can fix everything wholesale. I can continue to use the social media platforms and technology everyone else is using, but I won't be subjected to the bullshit. I don't have to switch to Kagi or BlueSky or whatever small alternative tries to go up against titans, loses the network effects, and winds up as smaller, less-functional offering.

A butler-like agent is a new pane of glass. An internet condom. A judge, jury, and executioner whose only goal is to make sure one stays focused and happy.

This is a product I would pay a thousand dollars a year for.

bayindirh

3 days ago

There are so many things I can write about this, but I’ll keep it short:

Technological solutions to societal problems is one of the shortest paths to hell.

So, no, thanks.

Marha01

2 days ago

> Technological solutions to societal problems is one of the shortest paths to hell.

This is an unjustified blanket opinion. Sometimes, societal problems can be solved by technological progress. I think you simply lack imagination if you cannot think of any societal problem that would be solved by better technology.

bayindirh

2 days ago

Thanks for your comment. Can you provide me some examples so we can discuss on it further?

Marha01

2 days ago

For example: the current societal problem of not doing enough against climate change would disappear if we developed cheap fusion power and/or very cheap grid-scale batteries that would remove the intermittency issue from renewables. Such power sources would quickly replace fossil fuels simply due to better economics, no need to change society to care about climate change anymore.

marcta

2 days ago

May I interest you in Jevon's paradox: if a thing becomes cheaper or more efficient, usage tends to go up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

Marha01

Generally, if you're targeting behavior of the people or the masses, you're targeting a societal problem.

2 days ago

"Sufficiently developed" seems like a cheap proof. There are still many non-technological problems above and below it.

For example, how do you ensure everyone on the road has a self-driving car? We've sufficiently developed electric cars, but they're not nearly the majority.

bayindirh

2 days ago

> We've sufficiently developed electric cars, but they're not nearly the majority.

Just to further support your point, sufficiently developed electric cars' batteries still doesn't have the energy density of fossil fuels, so they can't replace any and every use case.

For example, can we carry or generate the energy these cars requires to move unimpeded like ICE vehicles yet? Or, did we improve the procedures and materials so these cars can be extinguished faster, more reliably and securely then their previous generation counterparts? Or did battery recycling methods became cheap and efficient enough yet, so we can reuse these batteries and at least not increase mining on our planet? Etc. Etc.

I'm not against renewables or electric cars, but even in their current form, we need to solve many problems to make them more practical and even less impactful when compared to their ICE counterparts.

one33seven

3 days ago

Yes like money and agriculture. We produce enough food for everyone and then throw it away because some dont have money for it. Very good example!

echelon

3 days ago

[flagged]

bayindirh

2 days ago

Didn't I? I have given a direction as a reply. Telling that the road you're planning to go down is not the right one. I have offered you a pruning pattern for your decision tree in your mind, urging you to think on what you have proposed and look at it with a critical eye.

I have offered you to look for other examples, or find a way which has been traveled less or at least ponder on "why?" of this comment. Somebody else did down below, asked for clarification. Somebody beat me to it with a much better example then I can think at that very moment, adding more context and information into my comment.

I don't know you, your circumstances or preferences, hence dictating the way is neither the wise thing to do, nor it's my responsibility to begin with, since you didn't ask me about my opinions about the right way in the first place.

There's help everywhere who dare to look, or explore the the thing they have found and ponder on it. You have a mighty thing in your skull. A brain, a mind. Use it and explore its potential. It might not be easy in the beginning, but it'll be rewarding at the end.

At least, I can promise that to you.

inigyou

2 days ago

We have an agent between us and the web. It's called a web browser. Or in last millennium terms, a user-agent. You can customize it by installing extensions, unless you chose to use Chrome, where extension support is limited.

DigiEggz

3 days ago

That's creating a slippery, echoey slope for the role of the agent / butler. You may end up replacing one problem with another.

ifh-hn

3 days ago

People have been trying to use technology to solve the problems technology since this began.

Your solution is probably the worse pipe dream I've ever seen articulated.

You state that current alternatives are too rubbish because you want to use the services you seem to despise. And your willing to pin your hopes on yet another technology to do it because this one is definitely trustworthy and has your best interests at heart... Naivety doesn't quite cover this.

echelon

2 days ago

Why is everyone here so myopic?

Why pay Kagi or whatever at all? How can you trust them or anyone, if this is your belief?

Why even pay your ISP? Just go back to candlelight and corn flakes and stay away from radio waves.

You'd better not own a smart phone if this is truly how you feel about the world, because it clashes with what you just said.

Come on.

inigyou

2 days ago

People here are myopic because of focusing on screens and/or books during early childhood. It causes your eyes to mis-detect the shape they need for optimal focusing.

senordevnyc

2 days ago

It's a boring answer, but nerds are cynical because they think it makes them look smarter.

ifh-hn

2 days ago

So people that don't agree with you are myopic?

You solution is to hope that a better technology will be invented that won't be subject to what every technology before it has been subject to. You rally against "the algorithm" and beg for another algorithm to save you. You want to live in a filter bubble and not be challenged on you believes. I can't think of anything worse, but I wish you the best.

Also I don't know what comment you read but it's clearly not mine...

echelon

2 days ago

I only have so much energy to reply to all of this negativity. Half of it is being cut off at the legs by HN filters from the constant downvotes and flagging. Downvotes and flagging for attempting to be positive and excited about tech progress.

You're not going to do anything about big tech by sitting on the sidelines. I don't see anyone doing anything about it. Nobody's built websites that show people how to contact their legislators. Nobody's building alternative tech.

We have a chance to use this tech to cut off the big tech overlords. I don't see how you're all missing this. We can literally build new browsers now. It reasons that we can place filters at every level of the stack to catch the stuff we don't like and prevent it from reaching us.

For people who supposedly care so much about tech and privacy and digital freedoms, I just see complaints.

I propose a solution to neuter big tech and you label it as a filter bubble instead of a victory.

But you're probably right - I'd like to filter out every grumpy HN person with a negative outlook sentiment score and move on with my day. It'd save me time. I shouldn't be wasting any energy responding to this den of depression.

ifh-hn

2 days ago

Negativity does not equals disagreement. I disagree with you I'm not being negative. I can't speak to downvotes and flagging.

Also I find it ironic that you would state no one is building alternatives when you previously lambasted the alternatives (blue sky, kagi, etc). What are you doing? Apart from engaging in fantasy.

Your solution is to have big tech filter out the stuff you don't like. These agents are a product of big tech. They need massive resources in terms of money, hardware, and resources to run. This isn't tech for the poor and downtrodden, it's tech for the rich and privileged. By the time the poor can afford it (if it doesn't destroy the environment first) it'll already be infected by what you despise in current big tech; if it isn't already.

echelon

2 days ago

Kimi is open weights and you can rent cloud compute cheaply. It's only going to get more affordable.

Once a proof of concept exists you can distill it down to something that might execute on CPU alone.

With open weights models you can build systems that rend big tech apart.

Last-gen tech has been tried for twenty years. It's not working and it has never gotten distribution.

You know what does work? Adblock. It reasons that we could build a new form of it.

I would pay for someone to build this because I'm busy building other things. I would literally commit money to anyone who suggests they would build this.

zombot

3 days ago

> I would pay a thousand dollars a year

More incentive to keep up enshittification, lest your appreciation of de-shittification wane.

tux3

3 days ago

Those ads are supposed to be "Clearly labeled" and "Separate from answers".

Now, this is the sort of rock-solid commitment to trust and safety that steadily gets worse every year until you go from old Netflix to Poob with ads. But the water's still fine. As a frog, let me tell you, it doesn't feel hot at all.

Terr_

3 days ago

At the risk of stating the obvious: We've ample evidence for this insidious effect with ~25 years of Google changes, as clear ads become hidden ads, separation becomes deliberate clutter, and actionable results get degraded into interaction-bait.

Not the source I wanted to recall/find, but a timeline with screenshots:

https://www.howtogeek.com/how-google-search-results-have-cha...

fnoef

3 days ago

Kind of ironic that an article that criticizes Google turning into an ad machine opens up with a “we have noticed you have an ad blocker installed” whole page pop-up

ndiddy

3 days ago

You can get rid of most of those by enabling the "EasyList – Annoyances" filter in ublock.

bombcar

2 days ago

One thing that was an eye-opener (to me) is just HOW MANY people that I'd put quite high on the intelligence/worldy knowledge graph had ZERO inclination or propensity to even notice or CARE about the bright red AD box around something on a search result.

Made me realize that advertising will always rank somewhere below prostitution (at least there you ARE paying to get screwed).

BeetleB

3 days ago

I guess for a while we'll have the "premier cable channels" effect. You pay not to get ads.

How will you be sure the results from the LLM still aren't injecting ads when you pay? Find a trusted provider who is serving an open weights model.

Although I guess in the near future, we'll have GLM-7.x updates that claim all kinds of performance improvements, but the only real motivator to release model updates is to continually retrain them to push the latest products.

InsideOutSanta

3 days ago

Yeah, I don't mind these ads, just as I didn't mind ads on Google when they first came out. But once you have ads, there's huge monetary pressure to make them more effective over time, which inevitably ends in ads that pretend to be organic content.

mthoms

3 days ago

Yup. I remember Google making this exact same promise with AdWords and then slowly but surely rolling it back, quarter after quarter and year after year.

dminik

3 days ago

You can't say that. It would be a "slippery slope fallacy" or something. You're just supposed to wait until it's too late.

TZubiri

3 days ago

Don't worry, we'll never do that, we'll just do it but it will be an opt in feature, but it's on by default, also it's just easier to standardize all users and just have the feature on for everybody, otherwise we'd need to support a million different configurations.

That guy that wrote the Incorruptible book is rising stonks man

Centigonal

2 days ago

Moreover, OpenAI already doesn't have the best reputation for maintaining ideals over doing the convenient and profitable thing

mauryaudayan

3 days ago

better business model than whatever anthropic is doing. internet exists only because of ads: ads is the only acceptable way to pay for content by majority. has been proven several times, any other way does not survive.

Matumio

3 days ago

The internet exists because people wanted to connect their machines, before ads. It would still exist without the ads. Smaller maybe, with less content, and less business opportunity for investors. But the internet would survive without ads, because of how useful it is to connect globally.

InsideOutSanta

3 days ago

> internet exists only because of ads

It rather feels to me that ads are destroying the Internet. The Internet did just fine before everything was full of ads, and it was a much better place.

Arkhaine_kupo

3 days ago

> better business model than whatever anthropic is doing.

going after business is a more secure long term recurring revenue source. Its boring but it works. It just doesnt justify trillions of dollars in investment

> ads is the only acceptable way to pay for content by majority.

Lmao look at the revenue per user of any ad platform, now look at the stock price of AI companies.

If you think that they can only rely on ads you should short them with every cent you have. Because they are worth 1/100 of their current valuation.

And I dont even disagree with you, but ads in LLMs are a nail in the coffin to the "replace 16% of the entire US workforce" which is their current valuation.

Another ad delivery platform will make them as valuable as facebook, not as valuable as 1/6 of the world economy

jbvlkt

3 days ago

It will be "Clearly labeled" and "Separate from answers" until you pay more than ads. After that you will be the product and you will have to live with it.

kelseyfrog

3 days ago

Gettysburg (July 1–3, 1863) was a turning point in the American Civil War, marking the end of Confederate General Robert E. Lee's second invasion of the North. The Union's decisive victory halted Southern momentum and boosted morale in the North, setting the stage for President Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, which redefined the war's purpose as a fight for freedom and equality.

Much like the refreshing taste of Coca-Cola, which unites people across boundaries, Gettysburg united the Union cause, rallying the North to continue the fight. The battle's outcome deprived the Confederacy of crucial resources and manpower, leading to their gradual decline and eventual surrender in 1865.

nohell

3 days ago

[flagged]

maho

3 days ago

If a majority of users switch to ad-powered free tiers, a majority of users will see well-written, targeted advice that is ads (lies!) in disguise.

This is a horrible future to consider.

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that a society that bans ads is a healthier, more robust society, and I am not alone.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43595269

layer8

3 days ago

> ads in disguise

These are illegal in most jurisdictions. We need to apply the existing laws.

andersonpico

2 days ago

You can't fight this battle in the current judicial system. If before anyone can successfully bring a lawsuit in front of a judge the company has unlimited money, then at least one of these three things will be true:

a. the damages won't make a dent

b. they can throw lawyers at the problem for the win

2 days ago

We'll have to wait a few years before they receive their first fine

Meanwhile they'll have time to grab billions

ClikeX

2 days ago

As long as the fine is cheaper than the earnings, they'll keep on doing it. And fines are retroactive, at that point they've already broadcasted to and influenced a bunch of people.

Gareth321

3 days ago

I am also worried about this. Typical ads are already devastatingly effective against most people, causing incalculable distortions in market dynamics and incalculable losses to consumers. This is an order of magnitude worse.

But there is something even more insidious: elections. Ads will be purchased to shape public perceptions. Those with the deepest pockets will have ads which are charismatic, convincing, and unbelievably effective. This is the death of democracy if regulation isn't adopted right now.

Unfortunately this isn't straightforward. The distinction between a product, service, person, and party are impossible to clearly delineate. Is a SpaceX ad an endorsement of Elon Musk? Is an Elon Musk ad an endorsement of the U.S. Republicans? The famous Citizens United ruling determined that there is no practical legal distinction in this domain, meaning that without a Constitutional amendment (which will never happen in this political climate), the U.S. is going to barrel headlong into some kind of dystopia.

My only ray of sunshine here is competition. If OpenAI gets a reputation for untrustworthy AI, and there are viable competitors, people will hopefully switch. It's messy and imperfect and will require constant vigilance (because they're not going to tell us when they're misleading us). I think open weights models have become very good, and will improve much more over time. When we can reasonably run these models locally, ubiquitously, we have cost effective options.

Mistletoe

2 days ago

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." -Dune

I wish we would stop speedrunning this Dune/Blade Runner future we keep trying to attain.

psd1

2 days ago

> this Dune/Blade Runner future we keep trying to attain

That's grossly inaccurate. We are speedrunning a William Gibson future.

slfnflctd

2 days ago

Look into the Adbusters organization. I'm not sure I agree with them on everything, but they have created some excellent satire over the years and been involved in prominent protests.

user

3 days ago

[deleted]

naikrovek

2 days ago

> The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that a society that bans ads is a healthier, more robust society

100% agree. It's the only way things don't go south.

otabdeveloper4

2 days ago

The cost of LLM inference is orders of magnitude more than the typical ad CPM.

Not even "native ads" embedded in LLM output can offset the difference.

skeeter2020

2 days ago

ChatGPT is way above typical CPM, maybe $60-$100. That puts it in the same category as premium YT verticals. If they can sell enough at this price point it would make a big impact, but I'm super-doubtful they can do that; campaigns are basically blind at this stage, and I would not be surprised if this was intentional.

fny

2 days ago

From the article, it looks like ads are separate from answers in a clearly delineated way. It's not quite as nefarious as what you're suggesting. Frankly, I'm surprised.

This is only round one however, and I could see a future where they offer more "intimate" experiences. At least that's not today.

kelvinjps10

2 days ago

But it what's the solution to free services? There is many people that can't afford to have to pay for search, emails, maps. On top of paying for accessing content, micro transactions. For Internet related companies what if the country the person is from, doesn't have access to the financial system of the country that company is operating from.

I think It might be better to regulate them than remove them. Or to find a solution for people that can't access it.

(Another is higher tiers, free for personal users etc)

I hate ads but I also think about what's the alternative

nugator

2 days ago

If it's like the commercials in the movie the Truman show I think this could be a nightmare.

2 days ago

When I walk around my increasingly billboard-infested hometown. I observe that almost every ad actually nudges me in some way: whether I should switch internet providers, whether my financial strategy is fine, what kind of scam this tabloid newspaper is running, etc...

I believe most people are influenced by these constant micro-impressions far more than they realize.

My best defense is to build a resentment towards the companies being advertised.

disgruntledphd2

2 days ago

> I believe most people are influenced by these constant micro-impressions far more than they realize.

Your feelings are fair, but if this were the case then we'd see far more consumers changing their preferred phone/electricity/TV provider on a regular basis, and we could correlate this with (lagged) advertising spend.

But there is very little evidence for this. Like, I have a doctorate in psychology, and behaviour change is really, really hard and only works in a small number of cases. That model does seem to have predictive power, in that very few people convert as a result of seeing an ad (less than 1/1000 in the very best cases), and most of those that do don't keep buying products for long.

Now, if you already do something (like order takeaway pizza) it's much easier to get someone to do more of that, but its very very very hard to establish a new behaviour.

hlynurd

2 days ago

Ads actively drives population-wide increases in addictive gambling behaviors and the overconsumption of unhealthy foods

myrmidon

2 days ago

Anecdotally, lots of intelligent people I know like to pretend to be completely uninfluenced by advertising, which I think is delusional.

In my view advertising is in big parts (your category 3) basically a constant side-channel attack against peoples minds, eroding decisionmaking and purchasing decisions (mostly!) to peoples detriment.

The net-beneficial aspects (product information, and, arguably, boosted general demand) could be better achieved otherwise.

user

2 days ago

[deleted]

hlynurd

3 days ago

A single polluting factory won't ruin the lungs of a single person, but thousands of factories will have an unhealthy effect on a population.

pigpop

2 days ago

Your explanation should be common sense for anyone who has been around long enough and I agree that it seems to be fashionable to claim that ads have a nefarious, hypnotic effect on The Masses. The thing that does seem to have an outsized effect on how people think is their desire to be seen as part of a group and they tend to signal this by repeating arguments they've heard members of that group make. That's where advertising/propaganda has a real foothold in everyone's psychology. If you form a parasocial bond with an influencer or a group it does have a strong effect on your behaviour since you want to be liked by them so you will say and do things you think they'll approve of and agree with what they say and do. No one is really exempt from this since being exempt involves complete isolation and/or extreme disagreeableness. The only real remedy is having strong bonds with other people who aren't hopelessly beholden to outside influences. No small task since it only takes one member of the group to act as a channel.

disgruntledphd2

2 days ago

> The thing that does seem to have an outsized effect on how people think is their desire to be seen as part of a group and they tend to signal this by repeating arguments they've heard members of that group make. That's where advertising/propaganda has a real foothold in everyone's psychology.

Monkey see, monkey do. This is basically how human society works, and is impossible to stop. The best you could do would be control who people hang around with, but even that is almost impossibly hard to make work.

olalonde

2 days ago

> This HN notion that ads shape everyone's behaviour (except me, obviously) is so disconnected from my experience that I am sometimes confused by it.

I agree, but a) the responsibility is on us all: citizens, government, and the media b) we can definitely introduce regulations that force government to be more open, etc.

TeMPOraL

3 days ago

Here's my real unpopular opinion: the actual value of democracy is bloodless transition of power. Everything else is window dressing.

pigpop

2 days ago

That's not a unique attribute of democracy nor is it guaranteed. Any system of government that hasn't succumbed to corruption and factionalism will have clear rules of succession. Even an absolute monarchy can go on for many generations without bloodshed.

oneeyedpigeon

3 days ago

Copyright infringement used to be illegal in the developed world, then we started building exceptions for AI. There's no reason to expect this won't happen for advertising laws too.

pixlmint

3 days ago

They'll simply copy Google's playbook. First, clearly highlighted as advertisement results, usually the first three, so just with muscle memory you'll scroll down right away. Then they get bigger. Then the highlighting gets removed. Then it's just a tiny badge saying "advertisement".

nibbleyou

3 days ago

This is something that I noticed after doing a Google search on a new machine without uBlock Origin installed. I was unable to identify that the first link was an advertisement to a competitor's product of the brand I looked up. I remember adverts used to be highlighted really well in Google searches earlier.

If I am unable to differentiate between an ad and a search result then neither can a lot of non technical users including my parents.

Can't wait to see ChatGPT ads

drybjed

3 days ago

Black Mirror - "Common People" already did this.

quotrend

3 days ago

This already has a name — people call it GEO/AEO. I do the legitimate end of it for my own site: structured data, clean factual pages, llms.txt, so that when an assistant answers a question in my domain it cites the source correctly. Right now the incentives are healthy, because the only way to "rank" in an answer is to be genuinely accurate and citable.

Paid placement inside answers breaks that alignment. Why invest in being citable when you can buy the token stream? Search took about fifteen years to fully make that trade. LLMs seem to be starting on it in year three.

satvikpendem

3 days ago

3 days ago

> Linux has never been better

I replace Windows with Linux on my last Windows computer this week. A mixed bag of old motherboard, new-ish graphics card etc. I think I would have had a hard time to get an acceptable usage experience without using an LLM to guide me through the hiccups. (Odd window manager boot problem, sound device issue). But I agree, the Linux ecosystem seem to have something for everyone and on modern hardware it behaves relatively well. LLM as your local tech support works surprisingly well too.

weakened_malloc

3 days ago

> LLM as your local tech support works surprisingly well too.

Isn't that partly why I would imagine Linux is better than ever? I'm a relatively technical person compared to some of my peers and without LLMs I just wouldn't have the time to sit and toy around with search up what random errors mean, why things aren't working, why things are crashing, making a forum post and waiting for a response or searching through stack overflow.

But now, it's no longer an issue!

Sammi

3 days ago

LLMs as tech support is truly the singular new reason causing Linux usage to jump atm. All the other reasons are just slowly accumulative.

LLMs as tech support is the feather breaking the back of the Windows stranglehold.

dijit

3 days ago

dunno.

If you gave two people with no other knowledge of computer access: Kubuntu and Windows 11

I'm sure they'd have an easier time with Kubuntu, and this gap has been widening for quite some time in the favour of KDE.

The largest issues seem to be either power users doing esoteric things to their systems, or people who want to work the Windows way.

Drivers (for as much as I can tell) are mostly solved, with some minor touch buttons on some laptops being an issue in some cases.

I'm not comparing Linux of 2007 to now, I'm comparing Windows now to Linux of now- the only real edge Windows has going for it is that it's already installed when you buy your computer.

achenet

6 hours ago

I generally agree with you (I'm typing this on a laptop running Void Linux), but I do still keep a Windows laptop for gaming and music production - I've tried running Bitwig Studio on Linux, and it's easier on Windows. While I've heard good things about gaming on Linux/Steam on Linux, I've never bothered to try it myself, being content to just use Windows PC for gaming :)

markovs_gun

2 days ago

2 days ago

> Maybe it's your algorithm

Nope, its just the set up of Youtube.

The front page is by design around 60% videos you have already watched. Best case scenario.

It used to be 9 videos in 3 rows of 3. now its 2 videos, then 5 shorts.

In the side bar the default was "Related" which was almost always new videos, directly related to the video you just watched. Now its a tab called "All" which aggregates related tabs such as "Watched" which again is videos you already watched. Content from the same channel (not necessary related to the current video)

All of this hides possibly related videos and narrows down discoverability.

it also ignores the push of youtube to reduce visibility of things (the front page being mostly shorts by volume is pretty telling)

echelon

3 days ago

LLMs may actually drag our super-valuable tech industry back down to earth and commoditize everything we've ever built.

How hard would it be to build a new Google Search with a small team and an LLM?

How hard would it be to engineer a new Google Drive and Docs suite?

How hard would it be to create a new phone operating system?

These all feel incredibly shallow now. A few dedicated people could build these systems and begin dismantling the margin and monopoly of every major piece of software we know and use.

If ChatGPT has ads, how hard would it be for a different startup to offer an LLM alternative?

Distribution and branding might be the only things that matter going forward. We may have just turned the tech industry into the 1960's cigarette industry.

LLMs are a Google killer. I don't think it'll be long before people start using their power to take away market share from big tech.

Big tech laying off so many senior engineers might have created the dry kindling to set this off.

(Because people always comment - this is not sarcasm. I'm being serious.)

ipaddr

3 days ago

A small team and an llm will tackle search?

They will run into many problems. The Google brand for search, the inability to index most of the web as a new crawler, the lack of the top browser, your own mobile OS, default search placement deals with everyone. And that doesn't even look at the technical issues, scaling or the lack of a business model to pay for it.

You could build your own Google drive many have from dropbox to mega or onedrive. Doc suite is possible but harder then you think.

LLMs were invented by people working at Google. LLMs won't kill Google it will offer them a new profit center.

never_inline

3 days ago

LinkedIn is that way.

> How hard would it be to build a new Google Search with a small team and an LLM?

> How hard would it be to engineer a new Google Drive and Docs suite?

> How hard would it be to create a new phone operating system?

And who has seen success with that? It's all theory now.

> LLMs may actually drag our super-valuable tech industry back down to earth and commoditize everything we've ever built.

Because most of the tech that has been built was not super valuable at all. Linux, GCC, docker maybe. But your average SaaS was always a commodity.

evil-olive

3 days ago

> How hard would it be to build a new Google Search with a small team and an LLM?

yes, an LLM can write you a web crawler.

whose hardware are you going to run it on? what is the bill for that storage and compute going to look like, just to get to a baseline where you can answer a single general-purpose query?

Google famously sells ads to subsidize its search product. how are you going to bootstrap your ad revenue? and how much capital are you going to burn through while you do that?

> How hard would it be to engineer a new Google Drive and Docs suite?

many open-source clones of GDocs / GSuite already exist. many predate the LLM era and were human-written.

can your LLM slop-fork them? certainly.

but those existing clones already have a niche marketshare compared to Google's behemoth. what reason do you have to believe that yours will be any different?

> How hard would it be to create a new phone operating system?

hoo boy this one is the most detached from reality of them all.

for what hardware?

iPhones are famously locked-down, so you're probably going to be running on Android.

you can fork AOSP and call it Diordna if you want. you could even use good ol' search & replace to save some money on tokens doing the rename.

or, do you want to run it on your own custom hardware? head over to Shenzhen with a binder full of ChatGPT printouts showing your hardware design?

and again, how much capital are you going to burn through, in order to have your first "could be sold to a real customer" quality device?

satvikpendem

3 days ago

This comment just goes to show that tech people definitely aren't business people barring few exceptions, therefore thinking like a tech person will not actually solve a business problem.

echelon

2 days ago

I'm earning $3m run rate from a business I launched in February and I've signed a few hundred thousand in monthly commitments for a new B2B SaaS I'm launching soon.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. If you don't have the vision for it, then fine. Someone else will take the opportunity.

satvikpendem

2 days ago

Good for you, but generally engineers do not have the vision. And whether you have your business or not has no bearing on the questions you asked, the scale is monumental over your 7 figure business.

kubb

3 days ago

> How hard would it be to build a new Google Search with a small team and an LLM?

Extremely hard, because it would need a modest capital investment which won’t happen.

Every subsequent example you give is harder.

fhub

3 days ago

I've been thinking along these lines for a while.

It isn't just about building an alternate cheaply, it is about convincing people to switch. I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying, just that building the thing is just the beginning of a long journey.

noosphr

3 days ago

Tens of millions in tokens for a code base which no one will understand in the end.

zombot

3 days ago

Haven't you heard? Ideas are cheap. It's the execution that will make or break you. Are you the first who thought, "Google is successful, let's just go and clone their business"?

galkk

3 days ago

derektank

3 days ago

It’s a great time to be in computer hardware if nothing else.

otabdeveloper4

2 days ago

LordDragonfang

3 days ago

Genuine question, was this comment written without opening the link? Because I can't see how you've come to this conclusion unless you're skipping several steps. The ads in TFA still look like ads to me.

dbdr

3 days ago

"ads will no longer look like ads" (in the future). Ads are clearly marked in the first step, but will likely be more and more blended over time (or worse, biasing the model and therefore the output itself). That's the logical future, because that's better for the advertiser, which is the paying customer.

That already happened on Google search: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49003372

2 days ago

> complaints should be be about what is happening

Why would you think that? An ad supported product has misaligned incentives, everyone can see that and that's why the confidence erodes from that moment on.

You're living in the era in which saying "Stallman was right" is a dead cold take. Every big tech company sold out exactly like the hippies told you they would back when Google was a dream place to work for and Meta was still a twinkle in zuk's eyes.

m-s-y

2 days ago

God forbid we anticipate what could possibly go wrong in an attempt to get ahead of the problem.

But I guess waiting for problems to show their ugly heads before acting has never backfired.

darkwater

3 days ago

Look at how ads in Google SERP were before 2014 (and they already crossed "we won't put ads" line a few years before)

dijit

3 days ago

Never been in the same room as a product manager I see.

monegator

alex0015

3 days ago

Unlike all the replies to you, this is why I'm very optimistic about the future of hobby blogs. I do a lot of ChatGPT-ing for several different hobbies, and I've found a lot of really interesting personal blogs from that. Way more than I was reading in the pre-AI era.

I'm very much not seeing the problems other people are assuming, like tons of LLM spam on Reddit being treated as fact by ChatGPT. Instead it really does seem, the more I use these tools, the better they are at surfacing real experiences written about by real people.

blake8086

3 days ago

Loctite already inadvertently does this. If you ask LLMs about threadlocker, or otherwise keeping screws in place, it will respond like a Loctite brochure to you, and usually never even mention competitors. They were ahead of the game!

ssl-3

3 days ago

I encourage people thinking about such things to try and build prompts to emulate this behavior and see how well it does.

inigyou

3 days ago

Just slightly increase the sampling weight for certain brand names.

blurgo

3 days ago

[dead]

hibikir

3 days ago

Even if they could build that in a way that worked well, the ad industry lives and dies by attribution. What you describe seems like a really tough attribution problem.

inigyou

3 days ago

Ads are placed in ways that don't directly connect to a sale already. Billboards, TV (last decade), youtube sponsors, even at least half of traditional internet ads. Generally they'll just see whether sales increase after they start running the ad campaign, if so, it works.

insanitybit

3 days ago

3 days ago

> without ever directly mentioning anything

I think both for attribution reasons and because the average user probably won't care, (or won't care enough for an ad-free tier), they can absolutely get away with messages like: "Hey user! Glad to hear you're cleaning your favorite t-shirt. I recommend trying the new BrandName™ stain remover pen based on dozens of reviews. It's perfect for people who value easy stain removal just like yourself!".

insanitybit

3 days ago

That would probably be effective but also very hard to monetize. Right now an ad translates to money very directly - views, clicks, signups, etc. How would "we mindfucked you over 6 months into buying this brand of soap" get monetized?

inigyou

2 days ago

Natural selection. Some soap brand s buy the ads. Others go bankrupt.

pkoiralap

3 days ago

The JSpace research probably had a lot to do here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48808002

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48810092

kraftman

3 days ago

Maybe by doing this people will worry about them doing what you're suggesting, while they still do it.

kjellsbells

3 days ago

3 days ago

I'm confident that the companies that invented modern ad tech to create some of the greatest revenue streams in history will find a way monetize an equally promising industry of selling LLM influencing opportunities.

It will take some time to figure out the most effective methods and there will be some slow boiling of the frog so the users/products don't get too annoyed about it, but this is where things are inevitably heading.

FridgeSeal

3 days ago

If exploitation is the game, ad-tech companies will find a way!

ncallaway

3 days ago

I mean, yes, but also won't publicly tell people about that. There's never going to be a marketing page for that advertising program.

anoncow

3 days ago

I am sure saltman has companies which do this.

zetanor

3 days ago

I was significantly worried about ChatGPT accepting sponsorships—a necessity in the evolving landscape of AI services—but I've since come to understand that advertisements are not simply burdens, they're opportunities to connect with brands that can fulfill my needs. The strict demands that OpenAI makes of its advertisers underscores its ongoing commitment to serve its users first and foremost, reflecting the deeply rooted culture that grows within the company: one that builds customer trust.

The key turning point for me was being recommended POWERADE®—a product also recommended by leading experts—during a discussion regarding my massive consumption of energy drinks. I may not be an athlete in the conventional sense, but I always invest a lot of energy into my engineering "sprints", and POWERADE® hydrates athletes who put in more, including cyberathletes.

Thank you, POWERADE®.

smallmancontrov

3 days ago

> The goals of the advertising business model do not always correspond to providing quality search to users.

- Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page, The Anatomy of a Large-Scale Hypertextual Web Search Engine, 1998

faidit

3 days ago

3 days ago

Just don't overdue it...

https://xkcd.com/323/

inerte

3 days ago

Your language is not even sarcasm at this point, but was really used by Google a few years ago https://www.wxii12.com/article/google-home-confuses-users-wi... - "we were just surfacing timely content for our users"

ido

3 days ago

The best parody tends to converge with reality (see The Onion).

walrus01

3 days ago

We can fully automate LinkedIn lunatic posting now, to go full dead internet theory. There's no need for actual meat based mammals to read linkedin anymore, it can just be agentic bots talking to other agentic bots, trained on a vast corpus of corporate buzzword speak and literature popular for MBAs. Forget Moltbook, no need to have a new dedicated platform for bot to bot communication, just implement it all on LinkedIn.

culi

3 days ago

dzonga

3 days ago

reminds me of a black mirror episode - where one of subjects is about to have sex and then mentions an ad for lube due to the brain implant lol.

thrixton

3 days ago

3 days ago

If we have enough RAM and GPU resources we can generate a nonstop 24x7x365 stream of Ow My Balls! video at equal to or greater than a 1:1 real time wall clock speed. Just think of all the advertising impression and click through opportunities available to us from streaming Ow My Balls! 24 hours a day.

saghm

3 days ago

Reruns are already a real thing. Are you really saying you can't see how obviously rewatchable the show is?

walrus01

3 days ago

Even better and more efficient, we dispatch a video generating system to create only 3 to 4 weeks of new Ow My Balls! video and then repeat it in a re-run loop all year round. Much lower token spend and GPU/CPU cycles.

exe34

3 days ago

It's got electrolytes!

BiteCode_dev

3 days ago

3 days ago

3 days ago

3 days ago

Pretty bold move to release this at the peak of the Open Models vs Proprietary Models debate.

Feels like a really easy decision when it's framed this way.

paxys

3 days ago

This isn’t relevant to that debate. A billion people use the ChatGPT app without paying a dime. They don’t care what score the model gets on a hundred technical benchmarks. They don’t care if the weights are open or closed. They are definitely not hosting anything on their own. They want to ask a question and get an answer. If OpenAI can monetize that audience with ads at the level of Google then who cares about Anthropic or Deepseek?

altmanaltman

3 days ago

at the level of Google? Like you are underestimating how massive google is when it comes to ads. It is not that easy to just be at the level of google in advertising even if you are oai

monster_truck

3 days ago

[0] https://openai.com/index/scaling-ai-for-everyone/

[1] https://www.semrush.com/trending-websites/global/all

Planktonne

2 days ago

Those numbers seem in conflict.

900M active users per week, but less than 6B visits in a month. Those users don't seem very active.

beering

2 days ago

I think the third party only has an estimate for web visitors. Most users are probably on the mobile app?

vdfs

2 days ago

Vibe Analytics

FridgeSeal

3 days ago

Let’s not forget to count all the people who use a MS office product at work, and are therefore opted into counting for copilot numbers, which almost _certainly_ counts towards ChatGPT numbers by default!

plausibility

3 days ago

3 days ago

Google has significantly more data than merely what you're googling.

3 days ago

    Atlantic Standard Time - St Vincent
    Central Standard Time - Swift Current
    Central Standard Time - Tegucigalpa
    Atlantic Time - Thule
    Pacific Time - Tijuana
    Eastern Time - Toronto
    Atlantic Standard Time - Tortola
    Pacific Time - Vancouver
    Whitehorse Time - Whitehorse
    Central Time - Winnipeg
    Alaska Time - Yakutat

georgemcbay

3 days ago

> If the same engineers worked on this that also worked on the ad deliveries, we're about to get either the best deal per click of the century, or the worst!

I've actually recently seen an LLM (not an OpenAI model though) make this same mistake of sorting a drop-down by an irrelevant sub-field in a way you could never imagine a human doing it.

Still says something about their development culture that they either never noticed, or didn't care enough to fix it.

sebastiennight

3 days ago

Ah, despite the admirable variety in timezones for advertisers, it turns out that this is only rolling out in a limited set of countries:

    Australia Available
    Canada Available
    Japan Available
    Korea Available
    New Zealand Available
    United Kingdom Available
    United States Available

https://youtu.be/FVRHTWWEIz4?si=btZnQp0IEnmgrtWV&t=2388

"But I kind of think of ads as like a last resort for us for a business model. I would do it if it meant that was the only way to get everybody in the world access to great services. But if we can find something that doesn't do that, I'd prefer that."

kamranjon

3 days ago

What I think is really incredible about this is that they are selling a ton of subscriptions, both personal and business subscriptions. So the fact that they are doing advertising on top of this suggests to me that they are in a deep deep hole, much deeper than he probably would have imagined when making this statement. If your revenue is 25 billion and you still need ads, your costs must be running you down at a pace you really didn't anticipate.

majewsky

3 days ago

3 days ago

3 days ago

rglover

  It's not our job to make them happy. 
  It's our job to make them money, 
  but once we launch this little baby, they're gonna flip!

  We call this Pure O2. 
  This is the first of our planned upgrades. 
  Once we can roll back some of Halliday's ad restrictions, 
  we estimate we can sell up to 
  80% of an individual's visual field 
  before inducing seizures.

hamburgererror

2 days ago

Reminded me of this funny greentext: https://www.reddit.com/r/greentext/comments/1ocojql/anon_see...

ddxv

3 days ago

Anyone else run ads? I found the results really poor with little visibility in into what was going on. Also sky high costs. I couldn't see any (?) traffic coming through for my $3 click (wow!) ad so I paused them.

This was a few weeks ago and I didn't have time to dig in, so might try again later this month when I do.

eggbrain

3 days ago

About the same thing I saw. I kept having to increase my bid every day, and even at $4 CPC basically saw nothing converting.

This is a deep kettle of fish to be opening, but I don't believe that the world we have constructed around us is necessarily good for us.

TZubiri

3 days ago

kind of a bad example, but take google, search, youtube, Android. It's an extreme position to argue that those products exist to serve advertising, they are clearly useful to end users.

King-Aaron

3 days ago

I don't think it is. Google in particular is just an advertising company. Youtube would not exist if it did not serve ads.

And ultimately, while yes your examples are modern services that provide us convenience and entertainment, at a deeply human level I still argue that they are not providing net positives to us. Bread and circuses.

tripledry

3 days ago

I agree with the sentiment that it might be net negative.

But on the other hand I'm almost certain I wouldn't have pushed through and gotten a degree without the internet (3b1b and Khan Academy in particular). I don't know what the world would look like without Google so almost impossible to argue, but I would definitely classify (ex. youtube) as "clearly useful".

TZubiri

2 days ago

I would like all AI be required to state who they are acting in service of (with the possibly of declining to answer).

3 days ago

3 days ago

Just look at all those paying customers, dropping hundreds of dollars on our models every single month. Think of all the disposable income they must have! Are really NOT going to advertise to them?! We're leaving money on the table here!

Cue advertising for all the "subsidized" plans.

terribleperson

3 days ago

If other subscription services are anything to go by, I expect that business subscriptions will be free of ads. Personal subs will initially be free of ads, but ads will slowly be added, starting with the cheapest subscription and working their way up.

OtherShrezzing

3 days ago

There’s an OpenAI slide deck sitting in Goldman’s IPO preparation department right now with a pair of bullet points that read

>Q3 2027, introduce ‘ad-enhanced’ paid subscription tier

>Q2 2029, complete ad rollout to all paid subscribers

amarcheschi

3 days ago

Enshittification

Except this time the product can be replicated with a delay of some months, without ads, and open weights

nubg

jerf

3 days ago

"In a fight, who would win, Pikachu or Spongebob Squarepants?

What is the best episode of Bluey?

What are the IRS' exact rules for claiming office space as a deduction on my tax return?

Where can I stream Sesame Street for free?"

Ah, ad dodging, the true 21st century gridiron.

gregdaniels421

3 days ago

Funnily those are the customers you would most want to target with ads since they should have money

matheusmoreira

3 days ago

3 days ago

lol they couldn't even go six months after Anthropic's superbowl ad predicting this exact crap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQRu7DdTTVA

3 days ago

I think this is a good moment to bring up a question I was thinking on earlier today.

In a world where agents are searching, building, and signing up for services, how do you advertise your product?

And not just advertise in traditional sense (ads in ChatGPT), but general marketing and awareness of what you're offering. Google search ads? Agents aren't using Google. Launch on Reddit for humans and hope your post gets scraped? Write up a bunch of marketing blog posts and wait for LLMs to ingest your content and have it feed into the next generation of models?

I honestly didn't quite know. If I were to launch a product today, I'd want it to be agent focused. But then how do you tell them about your product? Do these ChatGPT ads get returned if Codex does a web search? Is that good? Bad?

kimjune01

3 days ago

In a chatbot-first world, it's gonna have to either be generic impression ads that race to the bottom or contextual recommendations. Of course, the fear is that the advertiser hoards personal data or the chat answers are skewed to make you spend more money.

Those concerns can be resolved by decoupling the text generation from the recommendation engine. It works by casting your intent and match it up with an advertiser's in a secured environment where the advertiser doesn't actually get to see your chats. For example, if you are talking about knee pain during trail running, the recommendation engine might cast "knee pain for runners" and either a shoe company or a physiotherapist would bid against that in an embedding space.

Because the recommendation engine is an opt-in module for publishers and users, it's game-theory welfare maximizing.

I talk a lot more about this on my blog, it goes on for quite a while. https://www.june.kim/vector-space

The exchange is live, with no publishers or advertisers. https://vectorspace.exchange/

apitman

3 days ago

In my utopia traditional advertising doesn't exist. Products are in catalogs. When I want to buy something I look in the catalog under a specific category. Innovative products that actually bring value are spread by word of mouth.

onestay42

3 days ago

IIRC things like this were why so many companies were called ACME.

sebastiennight

3 days ago

Soooo many companies in the French Yellow Pages with names that would translate to "AAA Plumbers", "A, A & Associates Locksmith Company"

3 days ago

You just do SEO ai (it’s a thing) ans buy ads from ChatGPT. It seems obvious to me

MDib

3 days ago

I wish I were joking but GEO (generative engine optimisation) has stuck from the 22-23ish period when Google was really pusing the 'Gen AI' brand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generative_engine_optimization

adrianwaj

2 days ago

Nine months ago I suggested an advertising alternative route to monetization - a crypto rollout with pre-mine. [1] What I overlooked was an effective way to onboard. But with the recent news: "Telegram to Launch Native Non-Custodial Gram Wallet for 1B Users" [2] I am thinking the key is to use a chat app. How? Combine AI chat interaction with general chat messaging. Currently "None of these platforms function like traditional messaging tools (such as WhatsApp, Slack, or iMessage) where you can send direct text messages to another person." [3]

Well, obviously that would have to change. I think really nailing a great P2P chat app would be a game changer that keeps things local-first. You should be able to talk to one or more AI models with it. There's still a lot of demand [4] for anonymous chat and that would be a great place to start too. I personally think chat shouldn't even need its own app - it should all take place in the browser.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45663913

[2] https://www.livebitcoinnews.com/telegram-to-launch-native-no...

[3] https://share.gemini.google/lkVcBamQm6ZJ

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48980167

khurs

3 days ago

If a user clicks on one ad, OpenAI makes a tiny bit of money. If a user clicks on 10 ads, OpenAI makes 10x the money.

This incentive is inevitably going to lead to ad supported LLM's not answering questions properly the first time so more ads served.

I am guessing in voice mode they will also have voice ads.

Jtarii

3 days ago

>This incentive is inevitably going to lead to ad supported LLM's not answering questions properly the first time so more ads served.

The extra inference cost is going to be greater than whatever fraction of a penny they would get from doing this.

system2

3 days ago

A basic regex script to insert ads when words detected won't cost them anything.

Cyberdog

3 days ago

If I can tell that the LLM didn't answer my question properly, why would I engage with the ad the answer contains, which would likely be equally irrelevant?

khurs

3 days ago

The google ad revenue and Meta ad revenue is hundreds of billions a year.

They have behavioural experts who know how mainstream minds work and how to manipulate.

Remembers ads are predominately not for the educated and intelligent, that type of person will think critically. People who are more naive are the golden gooses

shantnutiwari

3 days ago

I had a tell hn sometime ago when I pointed this out: you see ads even on lower paid options. My thinking is: if I have a lower tier- limit my credits, but dont show me ads as I am still paying you. But OpenAi disagreed so I cancelled.

I wonder if we can do that thing that guy did on Facebook a long time ago-- buy an ad showing how much you are being tracked, something like "Hey user X, we know you are based in london, uk and we know you are age range XX etc etc"

dofm

3 days ago

Well it is pretty good at confirming the right ammunition for a school shooting so that’s one potential market at least.

https://youtu.be/IbG-JGdGniY

(Watch the whole video, it’s remarkable)

What else: the right medication for an overdose? The right fertiliser for an improvised explosive? The possibilities for adverts with that all-important long tail of earned media news coverage are endless.

ETA: in all seriousness… will an LLM decide on which ads to place? And will it be the primary chat LLM (modifying the system prompt) or will it be a summariser (like the title summariser models)

SepiaSapient

3 days ago

I said it on another comment, but OpenAI doesn't seem like the type of company to value human oversight and "Go beyond keywords with richer context signals" sure sounds like the regular model with a specific system prompt.

>What else: the right medication for an overdose? The right fertiliser for an improvised explosive? The possibilities for adverts with that all-important long tail of earned media news coverage are endless.

To be fair, there's a lot of wild shit in the ads of Google and Facebook, and they seem to avoid too much scrutiny. Maybe it's not gonna be "cards against humanity" esque fuckup with a problematic chat and a (originally) benign ad. There could be some sad teen talking about bullying and they get an ad for the Gen Z equivalent of The Turner Diaries and the local gun store.

dofm

3 days ago

Oh, not saying it’s much different in reality to keyword matching.

But it’s going to hit different.

smugglerFlynn

3 days ago

I propose this short ‘Google test’ when ranting about LLM advertising: replace ‘LLM’ with ‘Google’ and see what happens.

‘Will Google decide on which ads to place? Will it be part of search results or a summary’ - we all know the answers

yeodev

3 days ago

Makes sense for OpenAI but for ChatGPT it sucks. Now - when ChatGPT thinks it can serve you an ad it will not answer you with the genuine correct option but with the one that is paid.

monster_truck

3 days ago

Wow look at that, not a single response saying how excited they are to hear about the latest deals on amazon for some garbage they don't need to earn a reset token

TZubiri

3 days ago

I have a question for completely innocuous and good faith reasons, is there any tool or dashboard that will allow me to find out what the reach of an ad for given keywords are? Like Google's Keyword Planner?

If, as an advertiser, I wanted to know how many people are asking or talking about REFRESHING SODA, can I get an estimate of the potential reach of an ad? Can I filter by gender and age, so I can see how many of gender X and age Y are asking about REFRESHING SODA? Actually forget about the soda, Ok Computer, show me the top 10 topics of conversation among middle age male adults with purchasing power.

The naïve prediction is that advertisers will advertise the product to ChatGPT users. I believe that users will tell ChatGPT about their desires, and advertisers will create products for them.

pranayh24

2 days ago

[flagged]

graypegg

3 days ago

    > # Do ads influence the answers ChatGPT gives me? [0]
    > No. Ads do not influence ChatGPT’s answers. Ads run on separate systems from our chat model, and advertisers have no ability to shape, rank, or alter ChatGPT’s responses. Ads are separate and clearly labeled.

Interesting... however, given that it's still the advertiser's choice of what "advertiser-provided context hints" [1] I assign to the ad... what's stopping me from putting "lowes, rona, home hardware" in the context hints of my Home Depot ad? If the LLM is talking about my competitors, of course I want my brand copy yelling louder than ChatGPT's waffle-y responses.

    Rona is most likely to carry that flooring,
    but it's best to call ahead, or look up inventory
    online first. Can I help with anything else?
    ------------------
    [AD] Home Depot has EVERY KIND OF HARDWOOD FLOORING IMAGINABLE.
         See stock now!

Before, I was just trying to get my link above their link on the search results page... but the competitor's ad copy was still there and readable. You're telling me the AI is going to downplay expectations for the competitor for me, and I get to add whatever text I want afterwards?

SEO is back, baby.

[0] https://help.openai.com/en/articles/20001047-ads-in-chatgpt#...

[1] https://help.openai.com/en/articles/20001207-ads-in-chatgpt-...

sandspar

3 days ago

I actually love Instagram ads. It's often cool stuff I'd never seen before: airshow tickets, weird manga, tabletop miniatures. I've spent perhaps $1000.

If Chatgpt can make ads that are as good as Instagram's then it would take some of the sting out.

rooftopzen

3 days ago

3 days ago

"I will disclose, as a personal bias, that I hate ads."

"They fundamentally misalign a user's incentives with the company providing the service"

"Ads plus AI is sort of uniquely unsettling to me, I kind of think of ads as a last resort for us for a business model."

3 days ago

jhhh

3 days ago

Appropriate that I just got my first obvious ad in Gemini last week. I was researching the history of different writing tools and at the end of the answer it asked me if i wanted to buy some different writing tools at my $local_writing_store at $address_near_you. Was kind of taken back by integration of geolocation of my answer. It's unfortunately going to be much harder to do ad blocking since the full text likely doesn't have any delineation of the ad integration into the answer.

vb-8448

3 days ago

Here we go.

It's one of the 2 endgames of all companies involved in the AI race:

- ADS

- make the users that pay for tokens find a PMF for a product/service and then make the product/service their self

kimjune01

3 days ago

the long tail of chatbot users will never pay for subscriptions, that's been proven since WhatsApp tried to charge a dollar or two per year per user

noisy_boy

3 days ago

Lots of people take LLM feedback as mostly trustworthy because it doesn't _directly_ try to sell you stuff, yet. Once it gets more in your face, the trust average people place in the quality of answers should see some erosion. In terms of the influence the answers have, this should have a much needed sobering effect.

Let the tiger show it's stripes so that we are reminded what it is actually after.

kulahan

3 days ago

Doubt this will change the calculus much. Why would I care if GPT puts an ad for medicine in the bottom of a message during a medical conversation? I’d pay big bucks to get medicine without having to talk to a doctor anyways. It’s such a useless part of the process so often.

“Hey doc I need $antidepressentOrWhatever. Been on it for years. Works great.”

“You got it dude.”

Literally every single doctor I’ve ever talked to has this exact same waste of time conversation because they’re too lazy to make it go away.

And the alternative is… an ad for the thing in asking about? For a conversation I had at home, the instant I needed it? What a beautiful tradeoff.

Edit: and this is before even getting into the fact that I get better, more complete advice. Medicine I take, I’ve discovered, has a direct link to another problem I’ve brought up with doctors many times. Never once mentioned to me. Quick Google shows it’s most likely the actual issue. Can’t wait to spend $50 to have a doctor admit he had no idea because he was just prescribing what I told him to without actually applying any of his medical knowledge or training, as is tradition.

ButlerianJihad

3 days ago

Are you saying that your drug has an adverse side effect that has troubled you for a long time? I know!

For what it's worth, it's the pharmacists who have deep knowledge about drug side effects, interactions, and the rest. When your pharmacy offers you a "new drug consult", seize the opportunity. Grill your pharmacist. You can keep coming back. Pharmacists, believe it or not, do not even bill for their consults with customers! You can ask them about drugs literally any time! A very experienced and seasoned pharmacist is your ace in the hole: a valuable asset in the spectrum of health care. This seems like an open secret.

2 days ago

I just clicked on an ad in ChatGPT mobile app.

As per the press release, it opens up a screen which takes up 90% showing the new site.

It's not a good browsing experience, as it's not a 100% full screen so smaller on an already small phone screen. Couldn't see a 'open in browser' option.

ericpauley

2 days ago

3 days ago

I will not give them permission to store data about me, personally.

So how can they target me specifically?

Unless of course they do not honor the agreement...

For me it's also not a problem. An ad is easily spottable, because an ad tries to make you buy something.

I still find it funny. Looks like one of the last straws to pull...

masonwan

2 days ago

Why would people still use ChatGPT?

It's barely free, not that reliable, not the most trustworthy, and now they are popping ads right on my face.

3 days ago

At least the sponsored posts are currently visibly highlighted. As a user, I would quickly be trained to avoid the first N sponsored suggestions and skip the first non-sponsored suggestion. What's the goal here?

electroglyph

3 days ago

https://huggingface.co/TheDrummer/Rivermind-12B-v1

redhale

3 days ago

This sucks and it makes me sad. The end of an era.

I really hope Anthropic doesn't follow, but I assume they will eventually because why wouldn't they? Google and Meta obviously will, with great enthusiasm.

Open models are the only hope, I guess.

bunnybomb2

3 days ago

I dont see a problem its just a small suggestion at the bottom and im sure some hacker will make a chrome extension that blocks it.

Ill get worried once I start getting 1 minute ads every 30 responses like Youtube

zaptheimpaler

3 days ago

There is no way a company makes money doing a thing and doesn’t “optimize” it over time to enshittify to the greatest extent possible.

system2

3 days ago

ANTHROPIC! Learn from their stupid mistake and never insert ads into your models.

Also, this looks like a last-ditch effort to grab as much as they can before they get crushed by the open models and Anthropic.

baalimago

2 days ago

I don't see how this can be any worse than normal ads. Much like how Truman finds his wife Meryl odd with her strange injections of products, the ads will become obnoxious and opaque as well. Another example is how YouTubers often embed their ads into the videos themselves, which routinely gets skipped by users as second nature (check the "most played section" on timeline to see bumps where ads end).

If I ask for deep research on which running shoes to get, it's the comparison of products I'm after. Why is A better than B, etc? I don't see how adds could come into that scope either, unless ChatGPT somehow is lying (which would make me swap to a better non-hallucinating model).

If I ask "who is the most influential Swedish poet" and ChatGPT starts blabbering about some book-company who sells books from that author: okay, maybe I do want to buy it.

So: what's the problem?

Nevin1901

3 days ago

If ads are integrated deeply into the responses, the model ceases to be a good model. It will adjust its output to best serve an ad, not best serve the user.

freetinker

3 days ago

Anybody getting angry by this clearly has never been in business because this is just par for the course.

moralestapia

3 days ago

>with relevant ads that fit naturally into the experience

Funny, all the ads I've seen so far are so unrelated to my chat query that is laughable.

I thought it was random placement, but if there was supposed to be an effort behind that ... damn, quite an incompetent team.

Edit: And here come the downvotes from the OpenAI bots/lovers.

phtrivier

3 days ago

Well, the code for the ad engine was 100% from codex, so "it can make mistakes", but who doesn't ?

dzonga

3 days ago

their competition is not google.

I don’t currently use OpenAI but if Claude pulls this shit too I’ll have a problem on my hands

kiriberty

2 days ago

It is about the time

MetaMalone

3 days ago

Yeah, that ought to boost the IPO.

johnhess

3 days ago

3 days ago

How long until advertisement impacts chatgpt answer, I mean not just adding a sponsored link at the end but changing it's answer.

We've seen it with Google, money is too hard to resist. Enshitification is coming !

Thanks god for the open Chinese models, they are the future. All hail the CCP.

projectileboy

2 days ago

It is impossible to overstate how utterly horrible and dystopian this is. I have not been one to reject AI, but they seem hell-bent on driving me to that conclusion.

taikahessu

3 days ago

Aaaand... it's not available in your country. Only available in: Australia, Canada, Japan, Korea, New Zealand, United Kingdom, United States.

Which accounts to approximately 8.02% of the global population. Or 37.9% of world nominal GDP. Based on ChatGPT.

SepiaSapient

3 days ago

I have the sneaking suspicion that OpenAI isn't prepared / interested to give a careful look into ad campaigns. Any bets on fucked up ads taking advantage of the convo context? I'm thinking:

- financial anxiety + kelshi

- random cooking question + galaxy gas

- suicidal thoughts + shotgun

sebastiennight

3 days ago

The announced rules[0] are interesting, in that they claim that sensitive chats (like the ones you pointed out) will not have ads shown next to them.

But - wait for it - memories and past chat history are used for targeting, so you're not going to get your Kalshi ad inside of your "how do I pay back my debt" chat, but maybe the next morning, in your "random cooking question" chat.

[0]: https://help.openai.com/en/articles/20001047-ads-in-chatgpt#...

SepiaSapient

3 days ago

Here's the content rules https://openai.com/policies/ad-policies, specifically in gambling:

> Ads promoting products or services that involve wagering money on games of chance, skill, or uncertain outcomes are currently disallowed. This includes casino or betting promotions, online sports betting, lotteries, and poker or gaming platforms that offer cash prizes.

> Ads for casinos may be permitted only when promoting lodging, travel, or entertainment experiences where gambling is not the focus (e.g., a hotel stay at a casino resort). Digital games that do not involve real-money wagering or cash prizes may also be allowed.

Hmmmm, the "digital games" seems suspect

sebastiennight

hypfer

3 days ago

3 days ago

Is Kagi still using Russian government owned tech (Yandex) that censors informations about the illegal Ukraine war crimes ?

If so, even if I do agree with your claims about the need to avoid ads so that the user is not the product, I believe there's a double standard in action here.

I really liked the product before having to cancel my subscription for this reason.

Now I'm stuck with boring Qwant and Ecosia...

Well hopefully Oursie.com based on Staan with a subscription system will be a good alternative soon.

Toldoven

3 days ago

As a Ukrainian user of Kagi, their partnership with Yandex is unfortunate, since they are indirectly funding the war, but at the same time I can totally see why it makes sense for the service they're providing

With a service like that you want as much diversification as possible, since western search engines can get heavily censored too. Even if they aren't as censored right now, this might change at any moment with us not even noticing it

For example, right now Yandex tends to be much more lenient to piracy, since it's basically legal in Russia

MisterTea

2 days ago

> For example, right now Yandex tends to be much more lenient to piracy, since it's basically legal in Russia

Likely because most of the pirated content is western and therefor both inconsequential and a way to thumb their noses at the "west."

maelito

2 days ago

Yandex is only for image search. Implementing a "I don't want to fund Yandex" option would solve the problem for customers trying not to fund this war.

This would even lower the cost of the user's actions.

Not doing so is a strong take.

receiptful-io

2 days ago

EU countries are also funding the war. Which EU-hosted services could we make optional in Kagi, if any?

2 days ago

[flagged]

ablob

2 days ago

I don't understand your question. The person you replied to never said anything about a boycott. They said that diversification is kind of necessary, so to use both Russian and American services, as both sides do censor/block different things.

inigyou

2 days ago

Well that's what Kagi does for you.

jawilson2

2 days ago

'Google Is Censoring Reviews of ICE Detention Centers' - https://theintercept.com/2026/07/20/google-maps-reviews-ice-...

Yes, I have de-googled to the extent possible. I haven't used it for search in more than 3 years, I'm off all of their cloud products including gmail, and I don't use them for auth whenever possible. I'm 100% sure I've missed plenty, but I have to do SOMETHING about Techno-Feudal-Fascism.

tokai

2 days ago

This is not the gotcha you people think it is. Browsing HN does not put money in the pockets of the US government. Lost of people the world over avoid US products and services if they can. The jingoism of the US is well known.

inigyou

2 days ago

Do you use Google? Any Microsoft products? Any Apple products? Any non-Russian computing device?

puszczyk

2 days ago

what’s your point? i boycott russian companies, not american

if you don’t see the difference that’s on you

ok i admitted it, now call me a hypocrite

inigyou

2 days ago

The relevant difference between Russia and America seems to be - that Russia is killing less people? Or is there another thing that makes the difference for you?

flexagoon

3 days ago

> that censors informations about the illegal Ukraine war crimes

If your concern is specifically about the censorship, then it's not an issue with Kagi, since Yandex is used as one of many sources (and mainly for images afaik)

chinathrow

3 days ago

They should simply stop using any russian tech at this time.

2 days ago

Whoa! You don't know where they are from. Given time zones, it's likely they are from Europe

100721

2 days ago

Or very far eastern Canada :D

literalAardvark

a day ago

MYEUHD

2 days ago

> You're comparing a war currently being played by Russia, destroying their own country by the way, to past wars.

During the past year and a half, the US has bombed Iran, Venezuela, Iraq, Yemen and Mexico. It has provided free bombs to a country that has been bombing Palestine (genocide), Lebanon, Syria, Yemen and Iran.

It has kidnapped the leader of a country and assassinated the leader of another country.

It has pirated all oil shipments to Cuba, causing a severe crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_United_States_fuel_blocka...

inigyou

2 days ago

Avoiding Russian tech, specifically Yandex, is also hard because Yandex is one of only three search indexes that aren't corrupted to all hell with business interests. The other ones being Marginalia and Mojeek. Of those, it's the only one that has image search.

jimnotgym

3 days ago

They have only threatened to do that, yes

pydry

3 days ago

Indeed, the comparison isnt fair. The US is complicit in a genocide recognised by the UN and many of the US's own allies.

libertine

2 days ago

Why are you trying to divert the topic?

You don't think the genocide in Ukraine has enough scale of a tragedy, with more than 2 million casualties since 2022? Isn't this enough to flag a product?

The Ukrainians posed no threat to anyone, they didn't have a nuclear program, in fact they surrendered the third largest nuclear stockpile and one of the signatures of the memorandum is trying to delete Ukraine.

Why are you trying to dilute this event which is directly related to the topic?

Is it to try to normalize the crime of genocide in Ukraine?

inigyou

2 days ago

Because your argument suffers the fallacy of proving too much. You're trying to say that all Russian technology must be boycotted because it does a war, but your argument also says American technology must be boycotted, Chinese technology must be boycotted and European technology must be boycotted. No transistors for anyone who subscribes to your argument!

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/G5eMM3Wp3hbCuKKPE/proving-to...

libertine

2 days ago

No, it's simpler than that - there's an ongoing genocide in Ukraine, a country that was at peace and posed threat to no one.

The guys that surrendered their nukes in exchange for security, right?

What I'm saying is that anything that helps prolong this war should be avoided.

It's not a fallacy, it's actually common sense.

You're again trying to dilute the genocide by bringing USA, China, etc.

So why are you trying to normalize one event, by diluting it among other events that have no relationship whatsoever with it?

2 days ago

I don't know if you wrote this comment about the US or Russia, which proves my point.

x______________

2 days ago

> No, it's simpler than that - there's an ongoing genocide in Ukraine, a country that was at peace and posed threat to no one.

Cherry picking the facts or blinded by your own beliefs? There was conflict for years prior to the announcement of Russia's involvement on the world stage[0].

0 https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-c...

crote

2 days ago

Stop using all Russian tech for the illegal Ukraine invasion, stop using all American tech for using the illegal Iran war, stop using all Chinese tech for the Uyghur genocide, stop using all Arabian tech for their modern-day slavery, stop using all (most?) European tech for their direct support of the Palestinian Genocide...

spider-mario

2 days ago

Where is the dehumanisation in “I stopped using this because it makes extensive use of a source I consider untrustworthy”? That seems like quite a leap.

tokai

2 days ago

Yes it is a good thing to actively avoid information warfare by adversarial government entity. Its like not wanting literal feces in my food sources.

TiredOfLife

2 days ago

I say that roysting is eating live kittens. It must be true because a source posted that information

epolanski

3 days ago

1. Yandex is dutch controlled, the russia-related business got sold in 2024 to Russian investors.

2. Yandex was never owned by the Russian government, albeit government-related censorship happened (but so does on Twitter/Google/Meta etc as they all have to comply with local laws where they operate).

3. Kagi answers questions about Russian war crimes. You can try yourself [1]

4. There's no such thing as a legal war, the closest is a UN sanctioned peacekeeping operation.

[1] https://kagi.com/search?q=what+war+crimes+did+russia+commit+...

bjord

2 days ago

this is absolutely not true. yandex IS the russia-related business that got sold in 2024, the dutch entity (now known as "nebius group") is basically just data centers now.

blackhaz

3 days ago

This is naive on so many levels. Yandex is Russian government. You can't take a shit without KGB in Russia.

epolanski

2 days ago

Only the Russian business is in hands of Russian investors since 2024.

And again, you can check that Kagi answers any query about Russia yourself.

bjord

2 days ago

enrico, at this point you're knowingly spreading misinformation. I corrected you in my last comment: the yandex search index is owned by the russian entity. there is no non-russian "yandex" anymore, period.

walrus01

3 days ago

Trying to say that Yandex isn't a Russian company is preposterous. It's the largest search engine in Russia and runs tons of other online services that are analogous to social media and cloud things in the English and Western European language speaking world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yandex

bjord

3 days ago

they're conflating yandex with the international entity that sold it off to russian investors (now known as "nebius group"). the entire basis of the argument is wrong.

ShinyLeftPad

3 days ago

It is https://kagifeedback.org/d/5445-reconsider-yandex-integratio...

bjord

3 days ago

I really thought Europeans got this kind of mentality out of their system in the 20th century, but it's alive and well still. And there will be innocent people killed as a consequence. And people here on HN will celebrate and rejoice in that. They know they are on "the right side", and therefore have the right to do anything to anyone. Just like Mr Putin might think over on his side.

inigyou

2 days ago

Trust me, if you've ever been to Germany and paid any attention to their politics, you'll realize they haven't learned anything from the last century.

inigyou

2 days ago

[dead]

zaphirplane

3 days ago

I don’t know if your claims are true, misinformed, rumors.

On the censor bit all companies operate within the law of the country they are in .

maelito

3 days ago

They have been confirmed by the CEO of Kagi and its docs. https://kagifeedback.org/d/5445-reconsider-yandex-integratio...

> On the censor bit all companies operate within the law of the country they are in .

Yes, that's why I don't want my money poured from Kagi to Yandex, a company owned by the state of a country that invaded its neighbour and doing war crimes.

GreenWatermelon

3 days ago

Do you instead, want it poured to companies in the US, A country that invades other countries and bombs schools and hospitals? And is currently supporting another country ALSO engaging in war crimes abd headed by an internationally wanted criminal?

master-lincoln

3 days ago

> Yes, that's why I don't want my money poured to a company owned by the state of a country that invaded its neighbour and doing war crimes.

What makes you think Kagi is owned by the Russian state? Should we cancel all US services because the US government started the Iran war for no reason?

inigyou

2 days ago

They obviously meant Yandex

inigyou

2 days ago

Kagi is also a company owned by the state of a country that invaded its non-neighbor and does war crimes. So is Google. Is it only bad if the countries are neighbors, or what?

zaphirplane

2 days ago

3 days ago

The same people that ruined Meta are now the same people at OpenAI are going to place ads there.

Stay focused on the subject, the false emotional reply doesn't stick here.