geon
3 hours ago
Garbage. You can't include training by the companies that develop an llm in the comparison against companies that merely use the same llm. Apples and potatoes.
peppevignanello
3 hours ago
Exactly, it's like saying Shell is spending a fortune on fuel compared to what they spend on employees, if you count oil extraction costs as 'fuel'.
general1465
3 hours ago
So where are these training costs getting paid from?
ssivark
3 hours ago
It'll get paid from revenue, not by redirecting employee salaries. All that AI+compute is literally what customers pay Anthropic for.
Big AI labs are not software companies where payroll dominates expenses. They're capex-heavy industrial entities; it just so happens that the "machines" (whose output they sell) are nominally the same category as the devices that their knowledge worker employees use on their desks.
seasox
2 hours ago
VC mostly, since Anthropic is not profitable.
arjie
2 hours ago
That's about to change: https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/mind-blowing-growth-is-about-to-...
Anthropic was profitable last quarter.
debugnik
an hour ago
xAI is discounting the first few months of their rental to Anthropic, which will help them seem profitable for a bit longer. We'll need to see if that lasts.
littlecranky67
2 hours ago
I wonder if they ever will be. If the chinese open source models are only 3-6 months behind every major frontier model release, I can't see the business model. GLM-5.2 is supposedly on par to Opus depending on the case. And everybody and their mother can run that model in their datacenter and charge Dollars for tokens.
est31
2 hours ago
There is distillation going on where chinese providers give the model lots of outputs. We don't live in a world where chinese providers are not doing this so we can't compare the advantage of this distillation, but there is some advantage to it otherwise they wouldn't do it.
If Anthropic can block distillations somehow (which are fair game imo given that Anthropic et al did the same with the written works of mankind), then they might stop or slow down the chinese from catching up.
Chinese also have like 40% of the AI researchers of the world, plus they have access to a lot of cheap labour for writing training data. I'm sure an hour of training data creation from one of China's 162 million university educated people is much cheaper than an hour of work from one of US's 97 million. Probably still cheaper than someone from the grand area.
China is behind in AI chips/GPUs but they are catching up. One thing where they have a hard dependence on outside is their energy imports: they have to import a lot of stuff from third party countries. The US on the other hand is energy self sufficient.
nylonstrung
an hour ago
I think the panic around distillation misses the fact that US labs also benefit heavily from Chinese breakthroughs like Deepseek's work on sparsity, MoE and training architecture
It may be that US labs use Chinese models for distillation but we'd ofc never know because they can host the models themselves
littlecranky67
an hour ago
Stopping distilation is a condradiction to growth: The more active users Anthropic gets, the easier it will be for chinese companies to distile the model. Heck, I can see a paid browser extension being issued that does nothing but send copies of your AI chatbox prompts+results to China - with a "hidden" feature that creates distillation prompts every now and then. Give each 5$ a month for installing the browser extension, and you got an unstoppable distillation botnet.
niyikiza
2 hours ago
I guess they should include tuition cost as well.
mazurnification
2 hours ago
In a way in US it is - _IF_ ppl were rational economic agents and free market allocation worked student loans should reflect on the wages too.
ThunderSizzle
37 minutes ago
Luckily we're not, because then your tip to a waiter/waitress would be dependent on their student loans remaining, especially considering how many expensive liberal arts majors struggle to find a sufficient career.
jonatron
2 hours ago
Apples and oranges, or chalk and cheese. Why would you say apples and potatoes?
arrowsmith
2 hours ago
Maybe an ESL thing? "Potatoes" are literally called "earth apples" in some languages (e.g. pommes de terre in French; Erdäpfel in some German dialects.)
danaris
27 minutes ago
I read it as trying to indicate that it's even more different than apples and oranges.
Not sure it succeeds in that, but I think that's the intent.
nerbert
2 hours ago
Grape and aspergus, we all get it
iLoveOncall
3 hours ago
OpenAI and Anthropic aren't charities, so whatever cost they inccur for training will be passed down to the companies using the models. So you absolute should include it.
onion2k
2 hours ago
OpenAI and Anthropic aren't charities, so whatever cost they inccur for training will be passed down to the companies using the models
You should, but with two important caveats. First, you don't know what their amortization schedule is like so you don't know what the impact on the pricing will be (are they going to pass the cost on over 5 years or over 20 years?), and second they may go bust before paying the cost down so they may not get a chance to pass it all on. If someone buys the company then they'll get a discount on the value, which means the training costs are just eaten by the investors.
zaphirplane
3 hours ago
Well … one was a non profit and I still can’t figure out how it kept the donations the tax benefits and because a trillion for profit company
InsideOutSanta
2 hours ago
The problem is how it's framed:
Anthropic spends [...] about $2m of compute per employee per year against a likely all-in comp of $500k+.
The rest of the software market trails. The top 1% of companies spend $89k per engineer per year on AI
This framing makes no sense. The reason Anthropic spends so much on compute per employee is that they are building models. Anthropic employees aren't opening Claude Code and spending $2m in inference every year, so comparing it to other software companies, where AI expense is mostly inference, is completely incoherent.
Yes, the cost has to be passed down eventually, but it's not passed down to one company; it's passed down to all of Anthropic's customers, so the actual share of that money will be distributed among Anthropic's clients.
Look, I 100% agree with the idea that OpenAI and Anthropic are both unsustainable companies that have dug themselves so far into a debt hole that, most likely, the only way they'll be rescued is with government intervention, but this is still a terrible article.
scotty79
2 hours ago
> whatever cost they inccur for training will be passed down to the companies using the models
Assuming their investors win the bet they placed on them. Which isn't given.
ErroneousBosh
2 hours ago
Why can't we pass on the costs of OpenAI and Anthropic's training back to OpenAI and Anthropic?
Bandwidth isn't free, and all my life I've been told that piracy is theft.
stavros
an hour ago
Because the money that OpenAI and Anthropic have to pay those costs with comes from the users who pay for the service. There is no "passing the cost" of anything. The consumer always pays all costs.
psychoslave
3 hours ago
Apples and potatoes are both something people will need to eat if we want to see it from the human utility perspective, and they both require some land space to be allocated for their culture (though one can of course conjugate both culture).
If you want to take the DDG LLM summary at fate value, apples are lower in calories and sugar but higher in fiber compared to potatoes, which are richer in vitamins and minerals like potassium and vitamin B6. Overall, apples provide more dietary fiber, while potatoes offer more protein and essential nutrients.
Comparison rarely lead to one obvious all superior option that discard every other considerations.
croisillon
2 hours ago
the saying "comparing x and y" implies that you compare something that one of them can't compete ; if people praise the softness of the skin first and foremost, comparing apples and potatoes won't lead interesting results
psychoslave
an hour ago
Yes, that’s certainly what people mean generally. Now if we consider perspectives like the one elaborated by Marcel Detienne in Comparer l'incomparable[1], we can go a bit further.
The comparison no longer starts with the goal to assess distinct objects in the frame of a given more or less established framework, and instead our attention is framed toward challenging ourself. That is, anchored toward finding what frameworks would allow to assess anything meaningful. And latter on, what does frameworks and framework creation reveals about ourself.
avaer
3 hours ago
I don't know, compute is compute. Arguably making complex software with LLMs isn't all that different from training a model to do a thing. You're throwing a lot of compute at the problem and hoping for a stochastic solution. The distinction will become even blurrier with time.
Though I agree it might be informative to split it by industry sector.
alexjurkiewicz
3 hours ago
AI training uses wildly more compute than most companies, who are generally building domain specific CRUD apps.
Compare AI costs per-engineer-salary-dollar, because more expensive engineers probably need more expensive AI.
eru
2 hours ago
> Compare AI costs per-engineer-salary-dollar, because more expensive engineers probably need more expensive AI.
Let's see how this works out in the long run. For a historical analog, more expensive engineers don't use more expensive computers (by and large).
ThunderSizzle
31 minutes ago
Which is probably a backwards anti-pattern companies have built.
Your most expensive engineer's time is most valuable, so if you give them standard issue which is half the speed, you are throttling the value you can get from your engineer. Not to mention the mental drain of your cursor barely being able to move due to all the bloated virtual networking systemization.
It would seem to make sense to give more valuable employees faster equipment, so that their time isn't spent toiling with the slow machine, but rather actually producing value.
fragmede
4 minutes ago
> more expensive engineers don't use more expensive computers
They don't? If you give your best engineers substandard hardware to work on, you're going to get worse output from them compared to if you give them more expensive computers to work with.
scrollaway
3 hours ago
If you’re going to include AI training in costs, you should include education as part of the costs of an engineer …
victorbjorklund
2 hours ago
And why only education? Everything the engineered needed so far should be included. Can’t have a dev that never eaten since they were born.
imhoguy
3 hours ago
... and that actually shows - senior engineers have spent actual paid time to train juniors. Plus they used to spent time contributing to open source projects or Stack Overflow, all the stuff which every company benefits from.
vksv6
3 hours ago
why stop there? Count how long and how much energy it took for evolution to produce that 3 chimp brain that is then educated, and add how long it took culture to produce the knowledge in text books for said education to be possible.