Did my old job only exist because of fraud?

124 pointsposted 2 hours ago
by advisedwang

38 Comments

etothepii

30 minutes ago

As a junior software engineer, I worked at a large UK bank.

Senior management routinely seem baffled that they could announce redundancies or hiring freezes, yet technology costs would continue to rise.

One pattern I saw repeatedly was a contractor being let go, only to return via a large outsourcing provider. The provider must have added a substantial markup despite supplying the same engineer back to the same team, without having incurred any procurement costs.

I once asked a more senior colleague how this made any sense. His answer stuck with me:

"You can’t stop people from doing their jobs. If someone thinks their job is to deliver X, they’ll find a way to deliver X. Sometimes that means working around processes and incentives in ways that look very strange from the outside."

rr808

13 minutes ago

> Senior management routinely seem baffled that they could announce redundancies or hiring freezes, yet technology costs would continue to rise.

I dont think they're baffled, they just trying to show they're attempting to keep costs under control.

comrade1234

an hour ago

I was on a government project where I found out I was being fraudulently billed on my hours. It was towards the end of the year and my manager was trying to use up the budget of the client. Although this is normal in the private sector I told him from the beginning that you can't do this on a government project.

The project was $1M+ which was enough for prison time. He had gone into our billing software and edited my entries - it wasn't as if he was submitting the fraudulent totals only - he was changing what I was entering.

I gathered as much documentation as I cloud and went to a law firm. They told me I had two options - report it to the Government Accounting Office or report it to the head of the project, an academic.

So I simultaneously resigned and reported it to the professor. I covered my butt. I'm pretty sure the professor hid the fraudulent billing but I didn't look into afterwards because basically that was what I was hoping he'd do so I wouldn't have to go to court and defend that my reported hours weren't really mine.

The full project was eventually awarded to another academic group.

talon8635

8 minutes ago

Okay… do you not feel culpable at some point? Do you feel no obligation to expose these various individuals fleecing the tax payers? Your boss, the academics, and everyone else who participated or knows and remains silent. Obviously, you are now in the later group.

Yes I know it’s not all that rare, BECAUSE people can’t be bothered to blow the whistle.

idiotsecant

an hour ago

That was your mistake. The grant recipient or department has as much incentive to fully spend the money as your consultant boss does to bill it. It's a implied understanding.

Spend the budget or next time people will ask why you need all that money when you didn't spend it last time. Expensive projects are important projects. Important projects make careers. That is baked in several layers deep. You'd need to report it to a waste and fraud line, ombudsman, or similar.

I'm not sure its unusual enough to bother, though.

comrade1234

43 minutes ago

I decided to take the advice of my lawyers who specialized in the topic of government projects. Based on the budget someone could have easily gone to prison and it probably would have been me because it looked like I was billing 80-hours a week when it was just one of many projects and so I was actually billing ~20/wk. The $1M threshold wasn't an anecdote - at the time it really was the limit in project size for prison time.

tasty_freeze

10 minutes ago

Ages ago, my girlfriend at the time worked for a company that routinely got SIBR (small business innovation research) grants. Such grants made up part of her total workload.

The crazy thing was that if she worked for 10 hours on SBIR stuff, then worked 40 hours on her normal work stuff (so overtime), the SBIR billing would get scaled down to 8 hours (that is, 25% of 40 hours). There would be no way to bill 80 hours.

The other thing that seemed somewhat crazy is that it was also common to have multiple SBIR contracts going on at the same time. If they bought a $10K tool for SBIR grant #1 and SBIR grant #2 needed it two, they'd have to buy a second one. So the tool would be out, then when switching between work on the grants, the tool would go into a locked cabinet, then the second copy of the tool would get unlocked from a different cabinet. I understand that firewalling like that prevents a company from "borrowing" expensive equipment for their own work, but it lead to waste like I just described.

zulux

32 minutes ago

You would have been fine: Your pay stubs reflected the correct time and your correct payment.

comrade1234

23 minutes ago

I was salary.

zulux

21 minutes ago

Shit. That does make it hard. I suspect you made the right move to protect yourself from drama.

fyredge

16 minutes ago

> Spend the budget or next time people will ask why you need all that money when you didn't spend it last time.

I've always heard of this nugget of wisdom but never really understood it. By punishing those who underspend (by making the next application harder), wouldn't you incentivise inflated research costs, or worse, fraud. Seems like a quick path to a positive feedback loop towards the degradation of trust in academic spending, leading to "poor government efficiency".

SecretDreams

an hour ago

This is all simultaneously true and simultaneously disappointing. It requires a certain forfeiture of morality to be a part of this status quo. But, especially on grants between academia and the government, this very much seems to be the status quo.

hsbauauvhabzb

33 minutes ago

Is it actually true, or just a trope? Anyone in a position to manage hundreds of millions worth of projects is smart enough to know that some projects will run under budget.

Zhenya

an hour ago

Why does any of this actually matter? Why were you shaken?

You weren’t committing fraud. You did real work. Now you’re in the US with a family and a career.

Happy Father’s Day.

wyldfire

an hour ago

You know that feeling when you work on a feature for weeks or months and then something comes along and the feature is no longer needed or the project is cancelled?

It's a pretty frustrating experience -- was it all for naught? Maybe it's useful to vent about it a bit.

jchw

an hour ago

I definitely had this feeling early on in my career, but it did flip around somewhere around halfway through.

"We're not shipping? Well, that's a bummer, but also, what a relief! If building it that was this hard, I can only imagine how bad shipping it would've been; now we can delete that code and with it all of the maintenance we would've had to commit to for years."

The personal attachment just had to go eventually. It proved not to be terribly helpful or healthy anyways.

mingus88

an hour ago

I worked at a company whose product was truly boneheaded. Without giving too much away, it’s the kind of technology that would have been useful if we lived in a world where smartphones weren’t being carried around by literally everybody.

I knew this, but took the job because I was burned out and knew I could spend a year or two coasting and padding my resume with some interesting things.

I came to the conclusion that the company was a grift, but at least they took care of their employees and included them in the profit part of it.

We had startup perks that were basically paid out in cash when the pandemic hit. The “gym” perk became $500 in cash which could be spent on anything vaguely fitness related, like an Apple Watch. The commuter benefits rolled into our accounts which gave me free tolls for years afterward. Instead of taking all the money, they cut us in.

So yeah, maybe frustrating if you expected your startup to be successful, but that’s so often outside of the control of any engineer. It’s always a crap shoot. Get your best offer and make the most of it. You can do resume driven development even in the shadiest of firms.

girvo

an hour ago

> was it all for naught?

I accepted a long time ago that it is all for naught :)

Enjoy our time on this earth, do what we can, focus on people and it'll be alright

xg15

an hour ago

Ok, but then honestly, spending 40+ hours/week in an office, doing work that's neither enjoyable nor useful doesn't seem like the best way to spend that time.

It also feels like willfully abandoning the bit of agency you still have if you don't even try to understand why the world around you works like it does.

alexashka

23 minutes ago

Many people's enjoyment stems from knowing they do less work for more money than the people they grew up around.

'Useful' is not even a thought that's ever entered their brain.

bartread

an hour ago

So much of what I’ve worked on in my career has proven to be utterly ephemeral. I’ve learned not to dwell on it too much, in part because one of software’s great strengths is its malleability[0].

However, I was quite surprised a few weeks ago, on a client project, to find in one of their repos a chunk of example code that I’d worked on 22 years ago.

[0] Being real, a lot of the ephemerality actually stems from questionable commercial decisions, working on the wrong thing, etc. But some at least is a legitimate result of evolving markets and needs.

uberex

an hour ago

I assume because it turns out it was a actual bullshit job, and they were probably proud of what they had achieved. They probably trusted and may have even got on well with their boss.

scrubs

15 minutes ago

I was briefly employed by a robotics company in the US ... robotics is too nice: glorified if/then/else is better.

The owner was the son of an old school magnate out of PA.

Among other things his line has always stuck with me: "A whale that surfaces is soon harpooned."

The company never made money. I think the whole thing was run as a loss on purpose for tax purposes. I became tired of the head manager/engineer combo (big fish in this tiny, tiny world) and left.

Even they knew this company was never really trying to do anything serious. Strange indeed

throwaway98797

6 minutes ago

sometimes fraud leads to positive outcomes.

imagine a world where SBF didn’t defraud the crypto world.

in that world anthropic may have not existed.

uberex

an hour ago

If we can see far, it is because we are standing on the shoulders of tyrants.

talon8635

3 minutes ago

The real version is much more applicable, because we can’t see far, because we are depressingly shortsighted.

In this regard, we aren’t standing on shoulders of giants, we are like an immense asshole of a dad climbing ontop of his young child’s shoulders to win a chicken fight in the pool while his kid drowns below.

db48x

an hour ago

Love that second footnote.

rwmj

22 minutes ago

At the end of the day he wrote some software which sounds legitimate and useful. What management did without his knowledge isn't really his problem.

At the other end of this extreme is if you have a good job in a bad industry, like gambling or boiler room frauds. You should feel responsible even if your job is just maintaining the servers.

exac

an hour ago

Fraud aside, I think a more common thought among developers is

> Did my old job only exist because the Product Owners didn't realize we didn't have product-market fit?

raincole

an hour ago

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's what a healthy economy looks like.

iparaskev

an hour ago

I think it doesn't really matter if the fund manager was committing a fraud. The author had fun, met their spouse and just enjoyed life with the information they had at that point.

Apreche

an hour ago

One of the many reasons to never actually care about the work you are doing if it is a for-profit endeavor, and you are not the owner. You are there to collect a paycheck so you can survive. If you want a job that you should care about then work in public service, at a non-profit, or for yourself.

mickael-kerjean

2 minutes ago

> If you want a job that you should care about then work in public service

I did that in the health sector of my local gov, the whole place was full of consultant who either got contracted directly from Oracle, used to work at Oracle before but moved there or took the Oracle pill early on and never got the idea to see how things get done elsewhere. It was impossible to ship anything that's not made of Oracle technologies and that was not an accident but a deliberate construction.

analog31

6 minutes ago

Another option is to do work you care about, in a way that doesn't attract the attention of people who might thwart it. I think plenty of socially or personally redeeming work can be done this way, for instance within very large companies. Enough of this work, in fact, that the net outcome for people and society is actually beneficial.

xg15

an hour ago

It's a reasonable stance until the point where most of society is ran by for-profit companies. Then that mindset actively makes the world worse.

Your bosses might not actually care about the work you do, but your users and customers sure will.

the_cat_kittles

an hour ago

basically agree, though if you work for a transparently evil company you should care, and quit

Dusseldorf

5 minutes ago

or stay, and be subtly bad enough at your job to negatively affect the progress of the enterprise.