zug_zug
3 hours ago
It's exhausting that the "solution" to problems like this is getting tens or hundreds of thousands of citizens stressed until enough public attention gives some small chance of redress. I'm not calling for violence, but if we can't get these things fixed in court there has to be a more effect and more forceful avenue for protest than venting on internet forums.
tptacek
3 minutes ago
I am ambivalent about whatever this controversy is (taking it at face value, it seems pretty bad, I don't know all the backstory) but we have in fact in the US the exact opposite problem: tiny, nonrepresentative groups of noisy stakeholders have an alarming track record of halting development, which has been deployed in the service of keeping home prices high, neighborhoods white and/or wealthy, transportation inefficient, and the power grid fossil-based and rickety.
josephg
2 hours ago
I saw a clip the other day of an American comedian doing crowd work in Paris. He asked the audience what America should do, and the French said - something like - they should punch the police more and light things on fire.
To me that sounds crazy! But, I can see how it works for the French. They protest all the time, and the government is very responsive to the needs of the people. Much more so than the American government sees to be.
smoe
2 hours ago
I don't know how effective the French protests are, since I haven't lived in Europe for a while. But even as a Swiss, at least judging from TV, protests in the U.S. generally seem very tame.
Not advocating punching the police as a default, but in my opinion, protests need to be disruptive if they're going to get anyone's attention at all. I don't really see what a few people standing on the sidewalk with cardboard signs are supposed to accomplish.
ramgine
2 hours ago
American police are much more inclined to escalate any violence instead of trying to de-escalate.
pesus
an hour ago
And if there isn't violence, the police tend to escalate things and make it violent. I suspect this works to prevent/neuter any serious protests so long as the potential protestors still have something to lose, and in America there is very little in the way of a safety net, so living conditions would have to (continue to?) deteriorate quite a bit before protests started heading in a French direction.
segmondy
an hour ago
Only because the people don't fight back. If they know that folks would fight back, they would behave themselves in the most polite and proper ways you won't believe.
mothballed
an hour ago
It's rarely acknowledged but a big reason why ATF and FBI toned things down after Waco is because McVeigh (he was there watching) directly retaliated causing nearly 1000 casualties of government employees. At that point they went to the current plan of just divide and conquer a single person at a time via surveillance of the targeted group after things quiet down rather than try to take on groups head on.
frogperson
18 minutes ago
Yep, you can see it in the way ICE operates. 10 agents jump out of several cars, they grab one helpless person and they all drive away. Like a pack of hyenas picking off a young calf.
morkalork
2 hours ago
Americans don't even protest on weekdays, they wait for a weekend to do it. So it is easy to say that they aren't serious but on the other hand, they're a lot closer to the knife's edge of stability and missing a day of work can get them fired (especially in at-will employment states), Europe is not like this as much.
johannes1234321
2 hours ago
And if they lose the job they lose their insurance, thus their medication.
This increases stakes to protest quite a lot, compared to European worker protection and social security.
morkalork
32 minutes ago
Yes, they've wound up having their whole lives very effectively taken hostage. Also criminals lose the right to vote don't they? Seems like the perfect incentive to criminalize any political movements that are contrary to the ruling class.
stavros
40 minutes ago
Well maybe you can get some worker protection and social security by protest... oh, wait.
SauntSolaire
44 minutes ago
That's somewhat understandable, what I find more interesting is that people around me won't show up unless it's between 70-80 degrees out.
vasco
2 hours ago
Do you think perhaps the two are related
keybored
39 minutes ago
Oof, could never be the case.
Guys, I feel like we should get another anti-union thread here soon. It’s getting a little too hot for comfort. I’ll start. Whew While I do like unions in theory, I was really peeved when I was getting my start in the working forces as a banana picker and this guy Bob took midday naps...
mothballed
2 hours ago
In the US if you're with a group of people and there is some leader or group planning unlawful property destruction or violence, there is a very very good chance it is a fed or confidential informant operation and you are the mark/patsy to which all the blame will be assigned when you're staring at a sheet of paper that says US v [your name].
soco
18 minutes ago
Are you trying to say the US are snitches? Or in any case, more snitches than the Europeans? More snitches than the ex-communists from the Eastern Europe?
oytis
2 hours ago
There are people with cardboard signs, and there are BLM protests or occupy Wall Street. Can't remember when the last disruptive protests were in Switzerland, but in Germany I'd say tame protests are the norm and disruptions are an exception
vkou
2 hours ago
99% of BLM protests were just people with cardboard signs. There's always the occasional anonymous asshole who might throw a rock at a window and run off, but that's the nature of any gathering of 100,000+ people. There will always be a turd.
In the other 1%, the police decided on a policy of always picking a fight with crowd, every fucking day, until they ran out of gas.
uxp100
2 hours ago
There was a lot of arson at BLM protests, and plenty of people beaten in the street, some of whom were in no way asking for it. The majority of the violence probably was the cops though.
BryanBigs
an hour ago
Watch any random sampling of body cam footage and you won't think the majority of violence was the cops. I'm amazed at the restraint honestly.
Now when I was a kid...getting thrown into a paddywagon while hammered after mouthing off to a cop was a right of passage.
Waterluvian
44 minutes ago
I think it’s important that the ultra powerful never feel they’re unreachable by guillotine.
al_borland
an hour ago
France is a much smaller country. When there is a mass protest in the US, it ends of being a bunch of smaller protests all over the country, which lacks the power of a single concentrated protest. These various satellite protests just end up being a minor nuisance, which don’t amount to much.
The media in the US often ignores the protests they (or their owners) don’t agree with. This also weakens them significantly. I remember having to go to Twitter to see what was going on with a lot of the Occupy Wall Street stuff, because the news was acting like it wasn’t going on. Without attention, and fractured across the country, it faded out. The protest area where I was living at the time slowly shifted into a homeless encampment, before they eventually cleared them out.
frogperson
21 minutes ago
That's alot less risky in France where the police have more than an 8th grade education, no guns, and aren't jacked up on right-wing hate propaganda 24/7. You punch a cop in the US and there's more than a 50% chance, that a given cop has been dreaming of "protecting himself" by any means necessary. In other words, you are going to get shot in the chest.
killbot5000
20 minutes ago
Or a shot in the back.
nicbou
2 hours ago
Is the French government more responsive than those of neighbouring countries?
boricj
an hour ago
Probably because we have a well established history of regularly changing regimes. Since we overthrew royalty in 1789 we've had five republics, two empires, three monarchies and a bunch of short-lived totalitarian regimes, coups and other major political events.
If anything, the longevity of the Fifth Republic is starting to become unusual (only the Third Republic and the Ancien Régime have lasted longer). Maybe we're overdue to flip the table again as per tradition.
breezybottom
2 hours ago
Those two things are contradictory. Obviously the government isn't very responsive if they are constantly protesting.
dgellow
2 hours ago
It’s not contradictory, protesting doesn’t make sense as a one time thing, you have to continuously put pressure and show you have power as a group
breezybottom
32 minutes ago
Only if you have a government that isn't responsive or accountable to you.
LiquidSky
2 hours ago
I feel like in the US if you punched a cop the cop and his colleagues are much more likely to just shoot you, or at least unleash brutal violence on you and the rest of the crowd. I guess the idea is to provoke these kind of battles in hopes that the cops can be overwhelmed or at least public opinion goes to your side?
andrepd
2 hours ago
I know that "French strikes" and "French setting fire to things" is a popular American trope, but things really don't work like that. If that were the case France would be a much better place than other European countries, and it really is not.
BurningFrog
an hour ago
By what measure does it work for the French?
They have 8% unemployment, 30% less GDP per capita than the US, and many other problems.
Government by caving in to riots is not in general being responsive to the needs of the people.
bumby
an hour ago
Well gee, to start France has higher healthcare quality/access, higher life expectancy, much lower treatable mortality, better work-life balance (less hours worked, more guaranteed leave), lower wealth inequality, higher voter turnout (indicative of less apathy or less efforts to disenfranchise), among others.
One of the problems with just using economic metrics is it seems to confuse the fact that the economy is supposed to serve society, not the other way around. So it leads one to wonder: with those better economic measures, what is it buying for US citizens?
dghlsakjg
32 minutes ago
Many Americans have a strong bias for measuring everything in money. If you've lived there, it can be shocking how pervasive the thinking is in EVERY decision.
bumby
24 minutes ago
To quote de Tocqueville:
“I know of no country, indeed, where the love of money has taken a stronger hold on the affections of men…”
rapsacnz
20 minutes ago
Also France scores hugely better on the international cheese index
DennisP
35 minutes ago
The solution here might be the appeals court, since there is a deed restriction. The city agreed to it when they paid $10 for the land. The article mentions that Texas courts tend to be pretty serious about enforcing deed restrictions.
bumby
33 minutes ago
That property was transferred multiple times after the farmer gave it away. I can’t tell if that save deed restriction followed those sales
wahern
15 minutes ago
AFAIU, the people suing have no privity; they're just a neighbor and don't have any right to enforce the covenant. (If the covenant had granted them an interest, they could have.) Presumably the original property owner who granted the land, or their successors in interest, could sue to enforce the covenant, but they haven't.
SecretDreams
2 hours ago
It certainly feels like we need a reset on the expectations placed upon politicians at all levels of governance. Somehow.
I think politicians have completely lost the plot in their job and who they represent. Instead, they seem all ideologically or financially motivated, and largely seem to get their marching orders from select wealthy CEOs. It's a very bad look that will get worse since trust in govern being so low goes hand in hand with voted apathy. And voted apathy means we get more of the same.
It's a bad cycle and I think we'll land on a civil esque war sooner or later.
wat10000
5 minutes ago
Society's elites have forgotten that civil institutions exist to be an alternative to resolving disputes through violence. If they completely bend those institutions to their will and leave the common people out in the cold, the result isn't acquiescence, it's revolt.
I, too, worry that they're going to rediscover this the hard way at some point.
cyanydeez
2 hours ago
yeah, it's interesting how we're not allowed to call for violence, eh.
Lerc
an hour ago
The problem is that, while there are times when violent acts may bring about positive outcomes, it is extremely rare for those outcomes to be in the minds of those committing the acts. It is far more common for someone to commit violence as an expression of their anger, while rationalising that it is justified because they are aware of the arguments in favour of violence apply to whatever it is that they really want to do in the moment.
pesus
an hour ago
We aren't, but the president and certain politicians sure are.
mystraline
an hour ago
We absolutely CAN call for violence. And especially political violence. Theres even a TV show with it as a name.
Its calling for "Law and Order". Its violence against the 'correct group'.
You absolutely can call for violence (now) against protestors, ANTIFA, anti-surveillance (DEFLOCK), unionists, homeless, drug users, and other deemed by federal, state, and local officials as undesirable.
You cant directly call for violence to black people by name, but eupamisms are still fine to allude to. "Those people", "ghetto", etc.
And the violence BY police and government way exceed the violence by the public they target.
Also, thou shalt NEVER advocate for violence against CEOs, business leaders, politicians, and the like. Their lives are worth like 1M of us plebes. So those who come to their defense will do so crazily and way over-respond, like cops do routinely.
Thats why the feds threw threw the book at Luigi Mangione. Cause if he did it, his way is illegal but tremendously effective. And the elites have little defense against this.
(Case in point. In my local area, a person took $100 from a cash register, and got arrested for a class A misdemeanor and 2 other charges. Whereas the same restaurant had their owner committed mass wage theft of 27 people to the tune of $72000, and only had to pay a fine.
There absolutely hypocrisy who can advocate and not for violence.)
fylo
2 hours ago
You're edging on terrorism
hilbert42
2 hours ago
What is left when all other options are exhausted?
The American War of Independence, French Revolution and English Civil War were acts of terrorism.
Were those acts justified? Not if you're the ones who were initially holding the power.
Aloisius
an hour ago
Calling the American Revolution terrorism, in the modern sense, is a stretch. It was a war waged primarily between soldiers and materiel with the goal of ending the enemy's ability to wage war.
Systematic use of terror as a policy to induce fear in the general public to push them to coerce their government's policy was not widely used.
bumby
40 minutes ago
I’m pretty patriotic but even I can recognize some parallels. There are examples of targeting civilians (tarring and feathering loyalists, or destroying their property). If you consider the attacks against Tesla to be terrorism [1] then the Boston Tea Party would probably fit that bill as well. I’d probably consider it irregular warfare, but I wouldn’t call it a stretch for someone to disagree.
[1] https://signalscv.com/2025/03/fbi-launches-task-force-to-inv...
HDThoreaun
29 minutes ago
The french revolution was terrible and made every single person in france worse off. It is the exact evidence that shows that even in a revolution restraint is still needed.
_carbyau_
23 minutes ago
So why do people keep pointing at an Amendment when it comes to gun control?
diordiderot
2 hours ago
People have weird kinks these days
bcrosby95
2 hours ago
The funny thing is it's neither terrorism nor illegal if you're just lobbying the government to do it on your behalf.
fwip
2 hours ago
If a government does not respond to the wishes of its people, violence is an inevitability. It is in the best interest of the state to be accommodating enough to placate the citizens.
diordiderot
2 hours ago
90s medical advertisement disclaimer voice
Only if what those people want is something I agree with otherwise I think the state holds the monopoly on violence and we need to mobilize it against the wrong thinker.
protocolture
an hour ago
Whats the problem here?
Farmer gives land to city.
City goes "We can have 10 million dollars AND a brand new data center, hot diggity"
City is enriched in both money AND services.
Thanks Mr Farmer.
ozim
an hour ago
Farmer donates land for a park
If you are my friend and I gift you a nice item … I would be majorly pissed at you and would not talk to you ever again if you would sell it online.
I would expect you give it back or pass for free to someone who is also close to you.
mystraline
an hour ago
No.
Farmer SELLS land (for $10) with a deed restriction that it is to be used for a public park.
Hand wavey timey wimey...
Deed restriction 'magically' goes away.
Gets sold for $10M.
protocolture
an hour ago
So a city should tie its hands permanently because of a gift? Donations can now override city planning?
Tired of paying property tax? Gift your house to the city with a deed that says they have to rent it back to you forever for $1 a year?
Lets be clear, this wouldnt even be news if it wasnt for "Datacentre"
bumby
37 minutes ago
If they don’t want to use it for the agreed upon purpose, they could either offer to pay the true value so they can use it for something else or give it back to the farmer/heirs.
The real problem seems to be one city gave the land to a parks nonprofit who then sold it to another city, but the original park intent did not follow those sales.
protocolture
33 minutes ago
And if they need it for something else they could just compulsorily acquire it from themselves for 10 more dollars?
bumby
22 minutes ago
I’m not sure I follow. Are you implying $10 is the material value of the property?
potatototoo99
26 minutes ago
The city could have refused to buy the land for $10 if they didn't agree to the terms. Or claim eminent domain and pay a fair price maybe.
_DeadFred_
16 minutes ago
Yes. Society doesn't work if the government is above contract law. If the city can't abide by it's contracts it should not enter into them. Unlike abusive software TOSs the sale was/is not self executing/binding/changed after the fact. The city chose to enter into it with their eyes open.